Dan Spiegel: Dale Tallon Should Win Executive Of The Year; Goal Differential Meaningless

Dan Spiegel: Dale Tallon Should Win Executive Of The Year; Goal Differential Meaningless
- spiegs13

First!

Tallon's got my vote. Too bad my vote doesn't count for anything.

July 1st, 2001 - Typo.

Also, if you remove those 8 games, you most also remove the 8 highest positive goal differential wins for the Panthers. That's just a horrible argument on your part.

July 1st, 2001 - Typo.

Also, if you remove those 8 games, you most also remove the 8 highest positive goal differential wins for the Panthers. That's just a horrible argument on your part.
- Blackstrom2

Fixed. Thanks for your input. Since the Panthers were not built to blow anyone out, which they didn't outside of two or three games this year, I'm fine with my stance. Thanks for reading.

July 1st, 2001 - Typo.

Also, if you remove those 8 games, you most also remove the 8 highest positive goal differential wins for the Panthers. That's just a horrible argument on your part.
- Blackstrom2

Lol...if there is one thing this team didn't do all year its easily win games. I think we beat Dallas 6-0 once? Its a pretty valid argument.

Fixed. Thanks for your input. Since the Panthers were not built to blow anyone out, which they didn't outside of two or three games this year, I'm fine with my stance. Thanks for reading.
- spiegs13

It's not a sound or valid argument. You cannot just arbitrarily throw out 8 games and not compensate for it. It's like someone backing up their argument with "because." So the goal differentials doesn't look so bad if you decide to throw out 8 of their worst games. So lets apply this to all NHL teams, subtracting the goals against in their 8 worst games. You will be surprised to see that it pretty much leaves your goal differential in the same percentile as it was prior to arbitrarily throwing out the teams' 8 worst games.

Just avoid making statistical arguments in the future, because this one is embarrassing.

Throwing out 10% of the schedule because you don't like it doesn't disprove statistical reality, it proves a poor attempt at trying to make the numbers fit an agenda. Everyone gets blown out some... Everyone wins big some. Your goal differential is what it is. Perhaps if they were better, they would not have been blown out 8 times.

Lol...if there is one thing this team didn't do all year its easily win games. I think we beat Dallas 6-0 once? Its a pretty valid argument.
- FloridaShawn

Thanks, buddy. You know what I'm talking about.

Just avoid making statistical arguments in the future, because this one is one embarrassing.

Throwing out 10% of the schedule because you don't like it doesn't disprove statistical reality, it proves a poor attempt at trying to make the numbers fit an agenda. Everyone gets blown out some... Everyone wins big sow. Your goal differential us what it is. Perhaps if they were better, they would not have been blown out 8 times.
- gollum

Thank you.

Thanks, buddy. You know what I'm talking about.
- spiegs13

If we take out 16 games where a hitter went 0 for whatever, maybe he'd be a .400 hitter!

It's not a sound or valid argument. You cannot just arbitrarily throw out 8 games and not compensate for it. It's like someone backing up their argument with "because." So the goal differentials doesn't look so bad if you decide to throw out 8 of their worst games. So lets apply this to all NHL teams, subtracting the goals against in their 8 worst games. You will be surprised to see that it pretty much leaves your goal differential in the same percentile as it was prior to arbitrarily throwing out the teams' 8 worst games.
- Blackstrom2

I'm not throwing out anything. I accept it. Few if any of the upper echelon teams suffered 8-0 and 7-0 losses. It was pointing out the nature of a newly put together team. There is more to the story besides just record, which is what this piece is about. The nature of these losses is noteworthy. If the Panthers hardly ever blew anyone out like they lost these games it is noteworthy. Sure every team wins games by two or three goals, but the Panthers were challenged all year to do just that. Tallon admitted in recent days he will focus on more goals because of this very issue. It is not fabricated.

As for the article at hand, I don't think the goal differential argument even holds any weight itself. Yes, they were in a weaker division, but a 3rd place team with a negative goal differential is indicative of the conference more so than the division, and really the league. Tallon may get it, but Poile and Armstrong both have strong arguments to be made for them as well, albeit all three of them, minus maybe Poile, are still a question mark as to if the playoff appearances can be maintained.

I'm not throwing out anything. I accept it. Few if any of the upper echelon teams suffered 8-0 and 7-0 losses. It was pointing out the nature of a newly put together team. There is more to the story besides just record, which is what this piece is about. The nature of these losses is noteworthy. If the Panthers hardly ever blew anyone out like they lost these games it is noteworthy. Sure every team wins games by two or three goals, but the Panthers were challenged all year to do just that. Tallon admitted in recent days he will focus on more goals because of this very issue. It is not fabricated.
- spiegs13

The goal differentials doesn't really matter, but I, along with another poster, was just pointing out the statistical error in your analysis.

Just avoid making statistical arguments in the future, because this one is embarrassing.

Throwing out 10% of the schedule because you don't like it doesn't disprove statistical reality, it proves a poor attempt at trying to make the numbers fit an agenda. Everyone gets blown out some... Everyone wins big some. Your goal differential is what it is. Perhaps if they were better, they would not have been blown out 8 times.
- gollum

Thanks for the kind words. The Panthers rarely won games like they got blown out, so it is noteworthy. I'm not discounting these failures, and I'm not saying they are meaningless. If the Panthers almost never won like they lost in these games it is worth mentioning. For Tallon's Panthers to achieve what they did amongst such clunkers is what this is about. Yes all teams have clunkers, but few with these type of butt kickings.

As for the article at hand, I don't think the goal differential argument even holds any weight itself. Yes, they were in a weaker division, but a 3rd place team with a negative goal differential is indicative of the conference more so than the division, and really the league. Tallon may get it, but Poile and Armstrong both have strong arguments to be made for them as well, albeit all three of them, minus maybe Poile, are still a question mark as to if the playoff appearances can be maintained.
- Blackstrom2

Trust me I understand your point, and I knew I would get resistance from the masses. I don't think the goal differential means that much either. However, what I keep hearing is the goal differential is what most fans have a problem with regarding Tallon winning this award. That is the only reason I mentioned it. It really came down to the Panthers rarely won like they lost, and certainly to Panther fans it makes sense.

Trust me I understand your point, and I knew I would get resistance from the masses. I don't think the goal differential means that much either. However, what I keep hearing is the goal differential is what most fans have a problem with regarding Tallon winning this award. That is the only reason I mentioned it. It really came down to the Panthers rarely won like they lost, and certainly to Panther fans it makes sense.
- spiegs13

Add in the 8 biggest wins (+31 differential) and the panthers still wind up -15.

You lose me when you talk about removing blowouts. Every team would look amazing on goal differential if you removed all their blowouts. Stick to the facts and not making up stuff to suit your argument.

Thanks for the kind words. The Panthers rarely won games like they got blown out, so it is noteworthy. I'm not discounting these failures, and I'm not saying they are meaningless. If the Panthers almost never won like they lost in these games it is worth mentioning. For Tallon's Panthers to achieve what they did amongst such clunkers is what this is about. Yes all teams have clunkers, but few with these type of butt kickings.
- spiegs13

Dude, "Goal Differential Is Meaningless" is in your title. Frankly, I wouldn't have read your post if not for that (empirically) false statement. Then I read what I expected, a truly terrible argument.

Here's an exercise, go sort the standing by point total and see how closely goal differential matches the final tally. Even better, do it over an extended period of time.

Panthers were where they were in the standings entirely because of loser points. Which is fine, getting to OT a lot says something... Unfortunately it also says you can't beat people in regulation. If we played the season again in the world of stats, the Panthers almost surely would not make the playoffs again, but that's why we play the games. It is, however, a warning sign about expecting a lot from em next year if they don't improve significantly.

Dude, "Goal Differential Is Meaningless" is in your title. Frankly, I wouldn't gave read your post if not for that (empirically) false statement. Then I read what I expected, a truly terrible argument.

Here's an exercise, go sort the standing by point total and see how closely goal differential matches the final tally. Even better, do it over an extended period of time.

Panthers were where they were in the standings entirely because of loser points. Which is fine, getting to OT a lot says something... Unfortunately it also says you can't beat people in regulation. If we played the season again in the world of stats, the Panthers almost surely would not make the playoffs again, but that's why we play the games. It is, however, a warning sign about expecting a lot from em next year if they don't improve significantly.
- gollum

They are a young team and I was very impressed with Dineen at coach. I see them improving regardless.

They are a young team and I was very impressed with Dineen at coach. I see them improving regardless.
- rmdevil313

Sure, but their goal differential is going to improve with that improvement.

Add in the 8 biggest wins (+31 differential) and the panthers still wind up -15.
- rmdevil313

Exactly. They didn't win like they lost. Additionally there were several uncharacteristic three goal losses that were not accounted for in this article that support the argument. I know, I know, everyone loses games like this. But because of the injuries, travel, etc., many losses were brutal while the wins were usually one, possibly two-goal squeakers. Again, I'm not mentioning this because I think it's vitally important. I'm mentioning it because others think it's vitally important to Tallon not winning an award I feel he deserves. That's all.

You lose me when you talk about removing blowouts. Every team would look amazing on goal differential if you removed all their blowouts. Stick to the facts and not making up stuff to suit your argument.
- nhaneo

I'M NOT REMOVING BLOWOUTS!

Exactly. They didn't win like they lost. Additionally there were several uncharacteristic three goal losses that were not accounted for in this article that support the argument. I know, I know, everyone loses games like this. But because of the injuries, travel, etc., many losses were brutal while the wins were usually one, possibly two-goal squeakers. Again, I'm not mentioning this because I think it's vitally important. I'm mentioning it because others think it's vitally important to Tallon not winning an award I feel he deserves. That's all.
- spiegs13

The difference between those 8 and your 8 is 9 goals... Not really substantial at all.

Travel? Again? I've been over this. The team has to suck it up. Its nothing compared to the west.

Everyone has injuries. Pittsburgh went the whole year with out Crosby, Rangers went half the season without Staal, Flyers lost Pronger for the season, etc. Not an excuse.

How can these 3 goal losses be uncharacteristic if there were many? Compound that with these blowouts you were complaining about before and they don't seem uncharacteristic at all...

Sure, but their goal differential is going to improve with that improvement.
- gollum

Misread your post. My bad.

I'M NOT REMOVING BLOWOUTS!
- spiegs13

You are specifically removing them to argue that the other 74 games are more meaningful.

People will say that is why you play the games, and that is understood. These performances, however, were not indicative of how the Panthers consistently played over the course of the year. These were aberrations amongst relative success. These were practically the only 8 games all season the Panthers were truly outplayed and/or tired. Surely there were other less than stellar efforts over a long season, but these eight are glaring.

Talon did an OK job down there, but the Panthers weren't very good, and benefited from being in a terrible division (the only playoff teams with negative goal diff came from the Southeast).