The Flyers aren't in for a lot of pain for a lot of years? Flyers are likely to be a worse situation. A bubble playoff team that is capped out and hoping the stars align for a miracle run. The worst position a team can be at in the NHL.
- MJL

He was specifically and only talking about Chicago. Why are you making it into a Flyers thing? If you want his opinion on the Flyers just ask.

No, they probably won't. They are likely in for a lot of pain for a lot of years, Bedard or not, unless they rebuild a nucleus and a supporting cast. Lots of developmental patience will be needed with no guarantees among all the other picks they're accumulating.

There aren't many 54th overall picks that turn out like Duncan Keith, years where you don't pick until 39th but get an Alex DeBrincat out of it or make a NHL roster bubble trade that turns out like the Matt Ellison for Patrick Sharp trade.

It's it possible the rebuild could be relatively swift with lots of strokes of good fortune smiling upon the franchise all over again beyond drafting Kane and Toews? Yes. It is likely? Odds say no.
- bmeltzer

I mean, I'd rather be in their position than the Flyers. Sure, odds are against them. But at least they committed to a full rebuild and started selling off pieces last summer to accrue more draft capital. They took on a bad Mrazek contract to get a better draft pick. Lukas Reichel looks pretty good in the AHL and just had a pretty great cup of coffee at the NHL level. Korchinski just won gold at the WJC. Nazar is still out after surgery but is playing for a hockey powerhouse in Michigan whenever he is healthy again. Isaak Phillips looks to be a piece as a 5th round draft pick. Drew Cammesso is looked as one of the top goalie prospects in hockey. They have a young coach who could grow with this group.

Outside of getting one of Bedard, Fantilli, Michkov or Carlson they've increased their odds at getting another Debrincat/Keith pick with extra first rounders and 2nd rounders in the next two years. Not to mention plenty of pieces to sell at the deadline like Kane, Toews, Domi, Athanisiou for more draft capital. Barring any trades, the Flyers won't pick in the 2nd round until 2025. And if the Panthers continue to spiral, that 2024 extra first rounder won't be used until 2025. JVR is really the only deadline piece the Flyers have to sell off and he MIGHT get you a 2nd/3rd rounder.

The Flyers are capped out for the near future with a few guys that could have career threatening injuries (one of which will probably never play again) and no real plan. Well, I guess their plan is 'try to get in and make a run' which will result in plenty of pain for them as well.

The demise of the Blackhawks was 100% self inflicted. Management compounded bad move after bad move, year after year
- ClaudeFather

Well, you win 3 Stanley Cups, the fun has to end eventually.

The demise of the Blackhawks was 100% self inflicted. Management compounded bad move after bad move, year after year
- ClaudeFather

They tried to hang on for too long, but in the end they still have three Cups to show for it.

Well, you win 3 Stanley Cups, the fun has to end eventually.
- Trox88

It absolutely did not have to go down the way it did. It was an unplanned massacre by their management.

Any insight on this Bill? Is it injuries? Development strategy? Confidence? All of the above.
And the above you posted is directed at the player not management. Colossal bust from management
- ClaudeFather

Ok. Agree to disagree.

I mean, I'd rather be in their position than the Flyers. Sure, odds are against them. But at least they committed to a full rebuild and started selling off pieces last summer to accrue more draft capital. They took on a bad Mrazek contract to get a better draft pick. Lukas Reichel looks pretty good in the AHL and just had a pretty great cup of coffee at the NHL level. Korchinski just won gold at the WJC. Nazar is still out after surgery but is playing for a hockey powerhouse in Michigan whenever he is healthy again. Isaak Phillips looks to be a piece as a 5th round draft pick. Drew Cammesso is looked as one of the top goalie prospects in hockey. They have a young coach who could grow with this group.

Outside of getting one of Bedard, Fantilli, Michkov or Carlson they've increased their odds at getting another Debrincat/Keith pick with extra first rounders and 2nd rounders in the next two years. Not to mention plenty of pieces to sell at the deadline like Kane, Toews, Domi, Athanisiou for more draft capital. Barring any trades, the Flyers won't pick in the 2nd round until 2025. And if the Panthers continue to spiral, that 2024 extra first rounder won't be used until 2025. JVR is really the only deadline piece the Flyers have to sell off and he MIGHT get you a 2nd/3rd rounder.

The Flyers are capped out for the near future with a few guys that could have career threatening injuries (one of which will probably never play again) and no real plan. Well, I guess their plan is 'try to get in and make a run' which will result in plenty of pain for them as well.
- TobyFlenderson

Exactly.

Hawks had 3 1st-round picks last summer. 8 top-90 picks in total.

They have two first, two 2nds and 2 3rds in the upcoming draft already. That number could balloon if/when they make more trades.

They also have multiple 2nds and 3rds in 2024.

That's a huge potential pool of talent to build around.

He was specifically and only talking about Chicago. Why are you making it into a Flyers thing? If you want his opinion on the Flyers just ask.
- Scoob

Give me a break Scoob. The post he replied to is below

"They'll be done with another rebuild and win another Cup before the Flyers even begin to get a clue."

No, they probably won't. They are likely in for a lot of pain for a lot of years, Bedard or not, unless they rebuild a nucleus and a supporting cast. Lots of developmental patience will be needed with no guarantees among all the other picks they're accumulating.

There aren't many 54th overall picks that turn out like Duncan Keith, years where you don't pick until 39th but get an Alex DeBrincat out of it or make a NHL roster bubble trade that turns out like the Matt Ellison for Patrick Sharp trade.

It's it possible the rebuild could be relatively swift with lots of strokes of good fortune smiling upon the franchise all over again beyond drafting Kane and Toews? Yes. It is likely? Odds say no.
- bmeltzer

Bill, looks like your account was hacked by someone in Flyers’ upper management.

What is the story with Ratcliffe?

He has only played 20 games and his production is almost non-existent. (2g 1a)

Considering what we gave up to move up and pick him (#35 for #44, 75, and #108) what a colossal bust both from the player and from a development perspective. At least somewhat ironically, none of those picks we traded have played a game in the NHL. (Filip Westerlund #44, Nate Shnarr #75, and Noel Hoefenmayer #108). Sadly they missed out on picking Jason Robertson (#39)

When he was up last season he looked like he could actually play.

Any insight on this Bill? Is it injuries? Development strategy? Confidence? All of the above.

It just seems crazy this kid somehow forgot how to score.
- MBFlyerfan

This imo is another one of Hextal, trying to be the smartest guy in the room. I put him with rubstov and JOB. No need to look at who the other teams selected...it's a moot point as who knows who we would've selected. But the kid never proved he could score even at the ahl level the way he did in juniors. But he is also not double the size of everyone anymore. He seemed to fall off quick because he wasn't as advertised by the team. Now, big guys always take longer, but agree.....his career does not look promising. the collapsed lung i'm sure didn't help, but it did change quick from this kid has amazing hands...to he may be able to become a 4th liner. poor, just poor

The demise of the Blackhawks was 100% self inflicted. Management compounded bad move after bad move, year after year
- ClaudeFather

That's pro sports in general. Teams that have had success always hang on too long. Especially if the revenue is still piling in. Look at the Pens. Are they going to win it again with the current core? Would it have made sense to trade Malkin and Letang and move on? Imagine the PR hit.

No, they probably won't. They are likely in for a lot of pain for a lot of years, Bedard or not, unless they rebuild a nucleus and a supporting cast. Lots of developmental patience will be needed with no guarantees among all the other picks they're accumulating.

There aren't many 54th overall picks that turn out like Duncan Keith, years where you don't pick until 39th but get an Alex DeBrincat out of it or make a NHL roster bubble trade that turns out like the Matt Ellison for Patrick Sharp trade.

It's it possible the rebuild could be relatively swift with lots of strokes of good fortune smiling upon the franchise all over again beyond drafting Kane and Toews? Yes. It is likely? Odds say no.
- bmeltzer

It's completely short-sighted for anyone to think that Keith, Toews and Kane were the only reasons the Hawks were a bit of a mini dynasty. NOT directing anything towards you, just adding on to your statement.

Thru the draft they assembled a really really good group of players, that's largely why they won, along with Toews, Keith and Kane. Look at this group and tell me drafting depth isn't important. Thats eleven players on their first cup team in 2010 they drafted in a six year span. It's really impressive!

2002
Duncan Keith 2nd round pick.
Adam Burish 9th round pick.

2003
Brent Seabrook 1st round pick-14th overall.
Corey Crawford 2nd round pick.
Dustin Byfuglien 8th round pick.

2004
David Bolland 2nd round pick.
Bryan Bickell 2nd round pick.
Troy Brouwer 7th round pick.

2005
Niklas Hjalmarsson 4th round pick.

2006
Jonathan Toews 1st round pick-3rd overall.

2007
Patrick Kane 1st round pick-1st overall.

The demise of the Blackhawks was 100% self inflicted. Management compounded bad move after bad move, year after year
- ClaudeFather

I'm sure some of the PR issues have not helped

Exactly.

Hawks had 3 1st-round picks last summer. 8 top-90 picks in total.

They have two first, two 2nds and 2 3rds in the upcoming draft already. That number could balloon if/when they make more trades.

They also have multiple 2nds and 3rds in 2024.

That's a huge potential pool of talent to build around.
- Tomahawk

Couldn't remember if they got a first rounder in the Mrazek trade but they did and Korchinski, Nazar (I know he's your personal favorite), Rinzel is a pretty nice haul for the trades they made. I think Domi and Athanisiou could definitely net 2nd or 3rd rounders. I'm sure they'll hold out for a first rounder for Kane. They could have three first rounders in what every draft pundit is calling an historically good draft. That's an enviable position to be in.

The Flyers aren't in for a lot of pain for a lot of years? Flyers are likely to be a worse situation. A bubble playoff team that is capped out and hoping the stars align for a miracle run. The worst position a team can be at in the NHL.
- MJL

No. The worst position in the NHL to be in is at the bottom, drafting high year after year and yet missing the playoffs for a decade or more, all the while..

As for the Flyers, the answer is "I don't know". Even without Couturier and Atkinson, I think they presently have 9 bonafide top 9 forwards in their top 9. The issue is not having much by way of proven top 6. Two good young goalies. Five bonafide top 6 NHL defensemen and serviceable No. 7 currently slotted 6th. Decent farm system depth but no likely superstars.

Lots of cap mess to sort out. Still have to figure out hockey ops beyond this season.

Is it an ideal spot? Far from it. But it's not unfixable in a shorter time than a total tear-down, total rebuild project.

It's completely short-sighted for anyone to think that Keith, Toews and Kane were the only reasons the Hawks were a bit of a mini dynasty. NOT directing anything towards you, just adding on to your statement.

Thru the draft they assembled a really really good group of players, that's largely why they won, along with Toews, Keith and Kane. Look at this group and tell me drafting depth isn't important. Thats eleven players on their first cup team in 2010 they drafted in a six year span. It's really impressive!

2002
Duncan Keith 2nd round pick.
Adam Burish 9th round pick.

2003
Brent Seabrook 1st round pick-14th overall.
Corey Crawford 2nd round pick.
Dustin Byfuglien 8th round pick.

2004
David Bolland 2nd round pick.
Bryan Bickell 2nd round pick.
Troy Brouwer 7th round pick.

2005
Niklas Hjalmarsson 4th round pick.

2006
Jonathan Toews 1st round pick-3rd overall.

2007
Patrick Kane 1st round pick-1st overall.
- Dave21Brown

Nik Hjalmarsson was one of the biggest key players in their success. He took on most of the heavy lifting, playing against top lines and doing it very well. Shutting them down while still generating possession. This allowed Keith to play in top offensive situations and rack up the points and offense.

No. The worst position in the NHL to be in is at the bottom, drafting high year after year and yet missing the playoffs for a decade or more, all the while..

As for the Flyers, the answer is "I don't know". Even without Couturier and Atkinson, I think they presently have 9 bonafide top 9 forwards in their top 9. The issue is not having much by way of proven top 6. Two good young goalies. Five bonafide top 6 NHL defensemen and serviceable No. 7 currently slotted 6th. Decent farm system depth but no likely superstars.

Lots of cap mess to sort out. Still have to figure out hockey ops beyond this season.

Is it an ideal spot? Far from it. But it's not unfixable in a shorter time than a total tear-down, total rebuild project.
- bmeltzer

Completely disagree. The Flyers are headed for more disaster. The tops of the mediocre teams without a realistic chance at getting franchise changing players. It pains me to say but the Flyers are the worst managed team in the NHL. They need a wholesale cleanout of the entire front office and management.
Being an average playoff bubble team that is capped out is the worst position a team can be at in the NHL. What the Flyers have done has only delayed any possible real growth. Since Hextall was hired with a supposed rebuild is now what, 8 years plus and counting? They haven't been truly relevant since 2010. 13 years and counting.

Exactly.

Hawks had 3 1st-round picks last summer. 8 top-90 picks in total.

They have two first, two 2nds and 2 3rds in the upcoming draft already. That number could balloon if/when they make more trades.

They also have multiple 2nds and 3rds in 2024.

That's a huge potential pool of talent to build around.
- Tomahawk

…and they have 3 recent cups which appeases the fans quite a it I’m sure. I’d gladly go through their growing pains with that track record of success in recent times.

No. The worst position in the NHL to be in is at the bottom, drafting high year after year and yet missing the playoffs for a decade or more, all the while..

As for the Flyers, the answer is "I don't know". Even without Couturier and Atkinson, I think they presently have 9 bonafide top 9 forwards in their top 9. The issue is not having much by way of proven top 6. Two good young goalies. Five bonafide top 6 NHL defensemen and serviceable No. 7 currently slotted 6th. Decent farm system depth but no likely superstars.

Lots of cap mess to sort out. Still have to figure out hockey ops beyond this season.

Is it an ideal spot? Far from it. But it's not unfixable in a shorter time than a total tear-down, total rebuild project.
- bmeltzer

I think the value of their prospects due to injury/covid really limited the Flyers on reshaping the team. If things continue this season, do you seem them moving out pieces to reset the roster to move forward with a viable plan to build a contender?

What is the story with Ratcliffe?

He has only played 20 games and his production is almost non-existent. (2g 1a)

Considering what we gave up to move up and pick him (#35 for #44, 75, and #108) what a colossal bust both from the player and from a development perspective. At least somewhat ironically, none of those picks we traded have played a game in the NHL. (Filip Westerlund #44, Nate Shnarr #75, and Noel Hoefenmayer #108). Sadly they missed out on picking Jason Robertson (#39)

When he was up last season he looked like he could actually play.

Any insight on this Bill? Is it injuries? Development strategy? Confidence? All of the above.

It just seems crazy this kid somehow forgot how to score.
- MBFlyerfan

Just another fantastic ronnie draft pick, didnt he trade up to get him?

Couldn't remember if they got a first rounder in the Mrazek trade but they did and Korchinski, Nazar (I know he's your personal favorite), Rinzel is a pretty nice haul for the trades they made. I think Domi and Athanisiou could definitely net 2nd or 3rd rounders. I'm sure they'll hold out for a first rounder for Kane. They could have three first rounders in what every draft pundit is calling an historically good draft. That's an enviable position to be in.
- TobyFlenderson

Nazar is indeed my boy from 2022.

It's completely short-sighted for anyone to think that Keith, Toews and Kane were the only reasons the Hawks were a bit of a mini dynasty. NOT directing anything towards you, just adding on to your statement.

Thru the draft they assembled a really really good group of players, that's largely why they won, along with Toews, Keith and Kane. Look at this group and tell me drafting depth isn't important. Thats eleven players on their first cup team in 2010 they drafted in a six year span. It's really impressive!

2002
Duncan Keith 2nd round pick.
Adam Burish 9th round pick.

2003
Brent Seabrook 1st round pick-14th overall.
Corey Crawford 2nd round pick.
Dustin Byfuglien 8th round pick.

2004
David Bolland 2nd round pick.
Bryan Bickell 2nd round pick.
Troy Brouwer 7th round pick.

2005
Niklas Hjalmarsson 4th round pick.

2006
Jonathan Toews 1st round pick-3rd overall.

2007
Patrick Kane 1st round pick-1st overall.
- Dave21Brown

Yeah, without a lot of suffering and astute draft picks under Tallon and Pulford, the dynasty doesn't happen.

No, they probably won't. They are likely in for a lot of pain for a lot of years, Bedard or not, unless they rebuild a nucleus and a supporting cast. Lots of developmental patience will be needed with no guarantees among all the other picks they're accumulating.

There aren't many 54th overall picks that turn out like Duncan Keith, years where you don't pick until 39th but get an Alex DeBrincat out of it or make a NHL roster bubble trade that turns out like the Matt Ellison for Patrick Sharp trade.

It's it possible the rebuild could be relatively swift with lots of strokes of good fortune smiling upon the franchise all over again beyond drafting Kane and Toews? Yes. It is likely? Odds say no.
- bmeltzer

I will take my chances with the Hawks turning it around faster over the Flyers pure incompetency.

No. The worst position in the NHL to be in is at the bottom, drafting high year after year and yet missing the playoffs for a decade or more, all the while..

As for the Flyers, the answer is "I don't know". Even without Couturier and Atkinson, I think they presently have 9 bonafide top 9 forwards in their top 9. The issue is not having much by way of proven top 6. Two good young goalies. Five bonafide top 6 NHL defensemen and serviceable No. 7 currently slotted 6th. Decent farm system depth but no likely superstars.

Lots of cap mess to sort out. Still have to figure out hockey ops beyond this season.

Is it an ideal spot? Far from it. But it's not unfixable in a shorter time than a total tear-down, total rebuild project.
- bmeltzer

Completely disagree!! It is extremely rare in today's NHL where you're successful without having bottomed out at some point. Are there any guarantees, of course not, but your chances of success are far greater having elite talent than not having it. You get that from the top of the draft.

I love what Chicago and Arizona are doing, look at the talent the Coyotes are assembling in a very short window of time. 2023 they have six more picks in the top three rounds to go along with all of their talent they've acquired already.

The Flyers will muddle around from 10-15th and never get that elite talent needed to win Championships....it's sad to be a Flyers fan these days knowing how poorly the team is owned and managed.

No. The worst position in the NHL to be in is at the bottom, drafting high year after year and yet missing the playoffs for a decade or more, all the while..

As for the Flyers, the answer is "I don't know". Even without Couturier and Atkinson, I think they presently have 9 bonafide top 9 forwards in their top 9. The issue is not having much by way of proven top 6. Two good young goalies. Five bonafide top 6 NHL defensemen and serviceable No. 7 currently slotted 6th. Decent farm system depth but no likely superstars.

Lots of cap mess to sort out. Still have to figure out hockey ops beyond this season.

Is it an ideal spot? Far from it. But it's not unfixable in a shorter time than a total tear-down, total rebuild project.
- bmeltzer

I am fine without a 100% tear down. Just need to get rid of the longterm contracts given to the older players and then turn the team over to the young guys. I would settle for Atkinson, Hayes and Risto being moved ASAP. Tall order to move any of them without adding assets in my opinion. Eating money is a given. I am fine with Coots staying assuming he plays again. Ellis is done and will be a cap hassle for the term of his contract.

Move JVR and Braun at the deadline. I do not want Fletcher to be a part of any of this but I do not think I will get my wish.