Kevin Francis: Looking back at GM Pierre Dorion's trades part 2

Need Dorian to find a common ground with the Rangers so he can trade them Josh Norris. It is going to be expensive for the Rangers , but could be greatly beneficial to both clubs in the long run!

Thoughts on Dorion's major trades...

- they may have botched the "buy" when it came to Brassard, but they nailed the "sell"... getting both Gustavsson and Bernard-Docker was a very solid return, and remain key pieces of the rebuild

- the Duchene trade didn't turn out well, but at least Dorion took a shot... at the end of the day (from the Senators' perspective), it was really Duchene for Byram, where they got 2yrs of Duchene, plus Thomson

- the Karlsson deal became lopsided when one of the 1st/2nd/2nd round picks became early picks in those rounds... a #3 overall pick that was known to be Byfield/Stutzle would have been a quality return on its own, especially given Karlsson's decline and the remaining 6yrs of $11.5M AAV

- Pageau was kind of the final piece of the old group to be moved in the rebuild, and it kind of felt like a release to send him off to a team where he's a near-perfect fit where's he's clearly appreciated... win-win

- Brown/Zaitsev is one of the few trades where Dorion nailed the pro-scouting, and got a pair of assets who have appreciated in value; factor in the avoidance of having to re-sign Ceci, and you have a very nice piece of work

In many ways, Dorion's best play was not to over-commit to any of old guard players, and get into the trap of long-term deals that are already problematic... even Stone, who as much as everyone likes him, may not wind up being good value for the money in the last 6yrs of his deal at $9.5M AAV. With very few exceptions, starting 7/8yr deals at UFA age is proving to be a recipe for disaster in the NHL... if Dorion has taken this to heart, it bodes well for the team's long-term management.

Ottawa did lose the DeMelo trade.

Ottawa did lose the DeMelo trade.
- islansjet

On face value, for sure. When looking at a lot of the Ott trades over the past few years, one has to also consider that the team wasn't willing to give up the value/term that some of these players would have been looking for on upcoming deals. Walking any of them to UFA wouldn't have made sense. I think Dorian has done a fantastic job with the situations that he has been put in, regardless if there are a few that didn't end up in Ottawas favor.

It has to be nice to be a fan of a team where you can say there have been some good wins from the GM. Also, Dorian seems to be able to recognize when he makes a mistake (some of those vets), and corrects the problems fairly quickly (without costing assets to do so).

A+ for both both Kevin and KHawk.

You need to look at the whole painting to understand the quality of the painting. The guys who want to study each brush stroke miss on seeing the quality of the final view.

Many trades are lost on the day of the trade (Karlsson) but prove out to be huge winners when we get see final vision of product.

A+ for both both Kevin and KHawk.

You need to look at the whole painting to understand the quality of the painting. The guys who want to study each brush stroke miss on seeing the quality of the final view.

Many trades are lost on the day of the trade (Karlsson) but prove out to be huge winners when we get see final vision of product.
- spatso

Actually you look at a whole painting first and then study the fine detail brush strokes and such. This is a weird connection you have made here.
How does a painting relate to a decision being made and thus scrutinizing that decision at the time, versus years later?
I always thought paintings are relevant to where you see things at certain ages and levels of maturity in life. That saying “a pictures worth a thousand words” does not jive well with the idea that a picture can somehow become quality when the variables in how much effort and thought would be immediately apparent to anyone who follows art.



Yikes.

Need Dorian to find a common ground with the Rangers so he can trade them Josh Norris. It is going to be expensive for the Rangers , but could be greatly beneficial to both clubs in the long run!
- TommyGTrain

Norris is a great player despite what the hoard of morons have to say. I see a 1B style centre reminiscent of Kadri (minus the physicality).
I’d do Norris for Strome and Kravtsov, or, Strome, Gauthier and maybe Lundqvist/Schneider. Something like that might work.

Actually you look at a whole painting first and then study the fine detail brush strokes and such. This is a weird connection you have made here.
How does a painting relate to a decision being made and thus scrutinizing that decision at the time, versus years later?
I always thought paintings are relevant to where you see things at certain ages and levels of maturity in life. That saying “a pictures worth a thousand words” does not jive well with the idea that a picture can somehow become quality when the variables in how much effort and thought would be immediately apparent to anyone who follows art.



Yikes.
- Unholy_Forward

Nobody studies the brush strokes of lesser art.

You need to see a near finished work before determining if it is worthy of detailed study.

On the other hand, poor quality becomes readily apparent without any close study.

Norris is a great player despite what the hoard of morons have to say. I see a 1B style centre reminiscent of Kadri (minus the physicality).
I’d do Norris for Strome and Kravtsov, or, Strome, Gauthier and maybe Lundqvist/Schneider. Something like that might work.
- Unholy_Forward

You would? Take R. Strome away from Panarin, and I'm not sure he's considerably more productive than Norris is right now... who they have on an ELC for another year, plus at least 4 affordable RFA seasons. Plus, you can go back and look what happened with the Islanders/Oilers, if you want to see what happens when R. Strome isn't given an all-star offensive winger to play with. Kravtsov/Schneider would be a nice addition, but it's really at C where they absolutely need to get better, and this really doesn't get that done.

The idea of Logan Brown for D. Strome, on the other hand, is quite a bit more interesting. Toews, Dach, Johnson, and Khaira are more than enough down the middle for the Blackhawks, plus it saves them a critical $3M of cap space, and gives a change of scenery to a young scoring C prospect. Meanwhile, D. Strome gets a larger role to work with in Ottawa, where he can hopefully prove that the 60-70pts pace he showed a couple of years back wasn't a fluke.

You would? Take R. Strome away from Panarin, and I'm not sure he's considerably more productive than Norris is right now... who they have on an ELC for another year, plus at least 4 affordable RFA seasons. Plus, you can go back and look what happened with the Islanders/Oilers, if you want to see what happens when R. Strome isn't given an all-star offensive winger to play with. Kravtsov/Schneider would be a nice addition, but it's really at C where they absolutely need to get better, and this really doesn't get that done.

The idea of Logan Brown for D. Strome, on the other hand, is quite a bit more interesting. Toews, Dach, Johnson, and Khaira are more than enough down the middle for the Blackhawks, plus it saves them a critical $3M of cap space, and gives a change of scenery to a young scoring C prospect. Meanwhile, D. Strome gets a larger role to work with in Ottawa, where he can hopefully prove that the 60-70pts pace he showed a couple of years back wasn't a fluke.
- khawk

Absolutely this. I have been saying D Strome for Logan Brown for months. Hell, throw in a couple of draft picks with Brown. He would fit right in

Absolutely this. I have been saying D Strome for Logan Brown for months. Hell, throw in a couple of draft picks with Brown. He would fit right in
- AlexProScout

I like Norris and think he is a solid #2. He is the kind of player that is sneaky good. Folks can't figure out exactly how he gets it done, he just does.

I think Pinto is something else again. He plays an elite defensive game. He is more than adequate in the offensive zone. I think he gets better every year for the next 5 years and becomes someone that can help this team go deep into the Stanley Cup playoffs.

I don't think the Sens need to hit a home run in adding another centre to their roster. A solid veteran is good enough. A higher end player (eg., Monaghan) might be inconsistent with growing the young core of talent.

Nobody studies the brush strokes of lesser art.

You need to see a near finished work before determining if it is worthy of detailed study.

On the other hand, poor quality becomes readily apparent without any close study.


This was one of the most brilliant and subtle insults of a bloggers work I’ve ever read.

Nobody studies the brush strokes of lesser art.

You need to see a near finished work before determining if it is worthy of detailed study.

On the other hand, poor quality becomes readily apparent without any close study.
- spatso

I guess you have not been introduced to modern art sir.

You would? Take R. Strome away from Panarin, and I'm not sure he's considerably more productive than Norris is right now... who they have on an ELC for another year, plus at least 4 affordable RFA seasons. Plus, you can go back and look what happened with the Islanders/Oilers, if you want to see what happens when R. Strome isn't given an all-star offensive winger to play with. Kravtsov/Schneider would be a nice addition, but it's really at C where they absolutely need to get better, and this really doesn't get that done.

The idea of Logan Brown for D. Strome, on the other hand, is quite a bit more interesting. Toews, Dach, Johnson, and Khaira are more than enough down the middle for the Blackhawks, plus it saves them a critical $3M of cap space, and gives a change of scenery to a young scoring C prospect. Meanwhile, D. Strome gets a larger role to work with in Ottawa, where he can hopefully prove that the 60-70pts pace he showed a couple of years back wasn't a fluke.
- khawk

Yeah I don’t know. I’m on the fence with Brown. Bigger players like Logan take a long time to get accustom to the NHL and Logan hasn’t really begun his stay in the NHL. No point in selling low on a player who hasn’t full developed yet.
I think worst case Brown ends up as a bottom 9 scoring depth option. You can never have too much depth at defense or centre is my look at things.
The history of trading Zibby for Brassard should be damning enough. What if Brown becomes a 2C and puts it all together? I think Strome is good but I think giving up Brown for him is probably too costly. I’d do a bigger deal around Norris if it meant bringing back Strome and either another solid winger or perhaps another quality defensemen.

Dylan Strome is garbage. Don’t understand the appeal. I’ve talked with so many Blackhawk fans and they were happy just getting a 3rd round pick for him. I think D. Strome and Monahan are both in the same tier which is that they are not responsible or good enough to be role models for younger players which is exactly what we need.
Ryan Strome at least provides a two way/veteran style. My preference is clearly R. Strome

I would not trade Brown yet.

Need Dorian to find a common ground with the Rangers so he can trade them Josh Norris. It is going to be expensive for the Rangers , but could be greatly beneficial to both clubs in the long run!
- TommyGTrain

Norris going nowhere 🤦‍♂️😂

Need Dorian to find a common ground with the Rangers so he can trade them Josh Norris. It is going to be expensive for the Rangers , but could be greatly beneficial to both clubs in the long run!
- TommyGTrain

Personally, a big no! Pass for me.

Thoughts on Dorion's major trades...

- they may have botched the "buy" when it came to Brassard, but they nailed the "sell"... getting both Gustavsson and Bernard-Docker was a very solid return, and remain key pieces of the rebuild

- the Duchene trade didn't turn out well, but at least Dorion took a shot... at the end of the day (from the Senators' perspective), it was really Duchene for Byram, where they got 2yrs of Duchene, plus Thomson

- the Karlsson deal became lopsided when one of the 1st/2nd/2nd round picks became early picks in those rounds... a #3 overall pick that was known to be Byfield/Stutzle would have been a quality return on its own, especially given Karlsson's decline and the remaining 6yrs of $11.5M AAV

- Pageau was kind of the final piece of the old group to be moved in the rebuild, and it kind of felt like a release to send him off to a team where he's a near-perfect fit where's he's clearly appreciated... win-win

- Brown/Zaitsev is one of the few trades where Dorion nailed the pro-scouting, and got a pair of assets who have appreciated in value; factor in the avoidance of having to re-sign Ceci, and you have a very nice piece of work

In many ways, Dorion's best play was not to over-commit to any of old guard players, and get into the trap of long-term deals that are already problematic... even Stone, who as much as everyone likes him, may not wind up being good value for the money in the last 6yrs of his deal at $9.5M AAV. With very few exceptions, starting 7/8yr deals at UFA age is proving to be a recipe for disaster in the NHL... if Dorion has taken this to heart, it bodes well for the team's long-term management.
- khawk

Very well said, but the part that you touched on with Dorion not over committing to old guard players is a huge plus for me when it comes to Dorion!

Ottawa did lose the DeMelo trade.
- islansjet

Ottawa wasnt willing to commit to him for 4 years with so many young guys coming up the pipeline, so in my eyes, it was a win for Ottawa because they didn't stall the youth movement. If DeMelo was given the 4 years in Ottawa, there would've been a log jam on D. Getting the Finish goalie too with that 3rd round pick, it could be bigger when all is said and done. The Jets needed a guy like DeMelo at the time when he priced himself out of Ottawa on term.

On face value, for sure. When looking at a lot of the Ott trades over the past few years, one has to also consider that the team wasn't willing to give up the value/term that some of these players would have been looking for on upcoming deals. Walking any of them to UFA wouldn't have made sense. I think Dorian has done a fantastic job with the situations that he has been put in, regardless if there are a few that didn't end up in Ottawas favor.

It has to be nice to be a fan of a team where you can say there have been some good wins from the GM. Also, Dorian seems to be able to recognize when he makes a mistake (some of those vets), and corrects the problems fairly quickly (without costing assets to do so).
- Beergu

Oh so very true, Dorion has realized mistakes and tried to fix them. Your first point, was right on the money!

A+ for both both Kevin and KHawk.

You need to look at the whole painting to understand the quality of the painting. The guys who want to study each brush stroke miss on seeing the quality of the final view.

Many trades are lost on the day of the trade (Karlsson) but prove out to be huge winners when we get see final vision of product.
- spatso

Thanks for the kind words and for always stopping by!

But yes, that Karlsson trade proved to be a massive winner, unlike what many thought when he was traded.

Thoughts on Dorion's major trades...

- Brown/Zaitsev is one of the few trades where Dorion nailed the pro-scouting, and got a pair of assets who have appreciated in value; factor in the avoidance of having to re-sign Ceci, and you have a very nice piece of work
- khawk

Oiler's fans will soon agree with us that it was a fantastic move to shed Ceci. However, Zaitsev is not an NHL level defender and it is horrific to consider his $4.5 million contract still has 3 seasons remaining.

On the other hand, Connor Brown was a good pick-up. On a playoff team he would be a solid 3rd liner. He has been the right type of player to mix into a rebuilding roster. I suspect the rebuild would be smoother with fewer turn-style players if the character of a few recent free agent signings was more reflective of Brown's.

While absorbing Zaits' contract has not yet been problematic, it may soon become dire. It is likely a few of the younger players will need to get paid. It is also plausible a large sum will need to be spent to acquire a 1D. While Brown has been an admirable player, I doubt he will seem adequate compensation for taking on Zaitsev if Zaitsev's cap stifles the rebuild.

Oiler's fans will soon agree with us that it was a fantastic move to shed Ceci. However, Zaitsev is not an NHL level defender and it is horrific to consider his $4.5 million contract still has 3 seasons remaining.

On the other hand, Connor Brown was a good pick-up. On a playoff team he would be a solid 3rd liner. He has been the right type of player to mix into a rebuilding roster. I suspect the rebuild would be smoother with fewer turn-style players if the character of a few recent free agent signings was more reflective of Brown's.

While absorbing Zaits' contract has not yet been problematic, it may soon become dire. It is likely a few of the younger players will need to get paid. It is also plausible a large sum will need to be spent to acquire a 1D. While Brown has been an admirable player, I doubt he will seem adequate compensation for taking on Zaitsev if Zaitsev's cap stifles the rebuild.
- Jackie Daytona

Oh yes, signing Ceci to anything longer than a one year deal, was insane! I truly cant see how any other team was bidding on him for more than that. Maybe the Oilers outbid themselves on Ceci, but again, the Larson departure made them desperate too.

As for Zaitsev, this past season he was very solid. I watched all 56 Sens games and he did way more than I could've imagined. Now like you said, 3 years left is going to eventually become a problem. Ideally if he had 2 years left it would allow the smooth transition for the youth movement on the blueline.

Absolutely this. I have been saying D Strome for Logan Brown for months. Hell, throw in a couple of draft picks with Brown. He would fit right in
- AlexProScout

Count me in! Plus Ottawa has 11 picks in the coming draft!

Yeah I don’t know. I’m on the fence with Brown. Bigger players like Logan take a long time to get accustom to the NHL and Logan hasn’t really begun his stay in the NHL. No point in selling low on a player who hasn’t full developed yet.
I think worst case Brown ends up as a bottom 9 scoring depth option. You can never have too much depth at defense or centre is my look at things.
The history of trading Zibby for Brassard should be damning enough. What if Brown becomes a 2C and puts it all together? I think Strome is good but I think giving up Brown for him is probably too costly. I’d do a bigger deal around Norris if it meant bringing back Strome and either another solid winger or perhaps another quality defensemen.

Dylan Strome is garbage. Don’t understand the appeal. I’ve talked with so many Blackhawk fans and they were happy just getting a 3rd round pick for him. I think D. Strome and Monahan are both in the same tier which is that they are not responsible or good enough to be role models for younger players which is exactly what we need.
Ryan Strome at least provides a two way/veteran style. My preference is clearly R. Strome

I would not trade Brown yet.
- Unholy_Forward

I hear you on not selling low with Brown, but he has been injured so much that whenever they have a plan for him to get more NHL games he gets hurt.