double post

double post
- SimpleJack

Wasn't worth the single post.....

This is all a bunch of hogwash

Its not that complicated

We used to be extremely talented, the most talented team top to bottom in the NHL from 2009/10-2014/15. And thus we dominated.

Now, after gradually losing talent and regressing over the past 3-4 years due to poor front office decision making, we simply aren't that good(on paper or on the ice). It has nothing to do with dumping and chasing, playing "heavy", what style of play we're coached up to deploy, what in game adjustments we make or how good the special teams are(I'm pretty sure one of our 3 Cup runs we had the worst PP in the league statistically). And the WORST part is we aren't bad enough to fully rebuild either.

We're stuck in no mans land trying to eek out one more Cup with an overpaid core of has beens. Not gonna happen. No matter how perfectly we're coached up to play whatever system Q deploys.
- SimpleJack

Spoken like a true spoiled "hockey" fan - that probably didn't know this team existed until 2009.

The best part about their slide the last three years is bandwagon "fans" like you will go away!!!!!!

He wrongly assumed the Cap would be much higher than it ended up being. No matter how you slice it, that's his fault. Or someone in the front office that gave him the wrong info/projections. You can't hand out 21mil to 2 players without knowing for ONE HUNDRED PERCENT certain where the Cap is going to be. Instead he took a guess, guessed wrong, and it (frank)ed us royally.
- SimpleJack

He was not the only one. Even the great Bob McK thought in 2013 that Cap could go up to 100 million someday. Those big contracts don´t kill the team it´s the way they play. How the hell Bowman would´ve known that Mr.Toews would regress the way he has after 2015? It´s not always Gm´s fault. Sometimes it´s players who should look in the mirror.

He wrongly assumed the Cap would be much higher than it ended up being. No matter how you slice it, that's his fault. Or someone in the front office that gave him the wrong info/projections. You can't hand out 21mil to 2 players without knowing for ONE HUNDRED PERCENT certain where the Cap is going to be. Instead he took a guess, guessed wrong, and it (frank)ed us royally.
- SimpleJack

I think you're missing something. Bettman or Daley came out and gave an educated guess where the cap number was going fall and they were way too high. All I could think of at the time was the line in Animal House "You trusted us. You (frank)ed up".
So rip on Stan Bowman all you want but he had help. And to go a bit powerenforcer on ya I wouldn't doubt that educated guess was bullpoop all along.

The problem the Hawks have had is when an opposing team goes all in to the overplay in the neutral zone, the only choice you have is to dump and chase - which can be effective if you play a "heavy" game, and even in the Cup winning years, the Hawks never played a "heavy" style.

The way they offset it was to be good on the power play - and took advantage of the other teams mistakes. That hasn't been the case in the last 4-5 years.
- dahawks8819

So this style of play whether defensively or offensively comes down to who's better at it or who's hell bent on not adjusting when the other team has the advantage. Back in the hay day, the Hawks won these consistently based on their talent of transitioning either from D zone or neutral zone to O zone. However, in the last couple of years some of those players are having trouble implementing/executing those same plays, coupled with newer players having to this, equates to advantage going the other way. Make no mistake, the league catches up and are "hip" to the Hawks style of gaining the O zone with speed and possession with numbers; thus defending it better then back then.

Also have to agree with you, if carrying isn't working then the Hawks overall do not have the team for puck retrieval on a chip n chase, as most forwards are smaller and not use to playing this style.

Regardless, of what style you play you need SUPPORT and options and that's what has been lacking these last coupe of years with their play as a 5-man cohesive unit has deteriorated.

So this style of play whether defensively or offensively comes down to who's better at it or who's hell bent on not adjusting when the other team has the advantage. Back in the hay day, the Hawks won these consistently based on their talent of transitioning either from D zone or neutral zone to O zone. However, in the last couple of years some of those players are having trouble implementing/executing those same plays, coupled with newer players having to this, equates to advantage going the other way. Make no mistake, the league catches up and are "hip" to the Hawks style of gaining the O zone with speed and possession with numbers; thus defending it better then back then.

Also have to agree with you, if carrying isn't working then the Hawks overall do not have the team for puck retrieval on a chip n chase, as most forwards are smaller and not use to playing this style.

Regardless, of what style you play you need SUPPORT and options and that's what has been lacking these last coupe of years with their play as a 5-man cohesive unit has deteriorated.
- D2D

Well said. I think we can all agree on this.

I think you're missing something. Bettman or Daley came out and gave an educated guess where the cap number was going fall and they were way too high. All I could think of at the time was the line in Animal House "You trusted us. You (frank)ed up".
So rip on Stan Bowman all you want but he had help. And to go a bit powerenforcer on ya I wouldn't doubt that educated guess was bullpoop all along.
- 6628

Let's not forget where this club came from, getting to the SCF in the early 90's just to sell of franchise faves. The hawks couldn't afford to do that again and were overzealous locking in the faces of the franchise. They also had/have a Norris trophy winner on a VERY manageable contract.

He was not the only one. Even the great Bob McK thought in 2013 that Cap could go up to 100 million someday. Those big contracts don´t kill the team it´s the way they play. How the hell Bowman would´ve known that Mr.Toews would regress the way he has after 2015? It´s not always Gm´s fault. Sometimes it´s players who should look in the mirror.
- MjulQvist

He’s the only one that handed out a pair of 10.5mil per deals.

I think you're missing something. Bettman or Daley came out and gave an educated guess where the cap number was going fall and they were way too high. All I could think of at the time was the line in Animal House "You trusted us. You (frank)ed up".
So rip on Stan Bowman all you want but he had help. And to go a bit powerenforcer on ya I wouldn't doubt that educated guess was bullpoop all along.
- 6628

No, it was all Bowman, he was absolutely the only one that didn't predict a currency failure a year after he gave out contracts.

He’s the only one that handed out a pair of 10.5mil per deals.
- SimpleJack

He was the only one that was a GM of a team that had two top players up for contract that had won two cups and been to the WC in the last while, wasn't he? But then Lombardi gave Kopitar a $10m contract two years later right in the middle of all the cap issues but let's ignore that, I guess. Let's not pretend if Doughty had been up then as well, they wouldn't have given him $10m+ still as well.

And without them signing summer of 2014, do you think they'd have their 3rd cup? Bowman was never going to have a potential Tavares situation hanging over the team, so one or both may have been moved. Or maybe they still win but one or both walk anyway and the team got nothing for them. And lbr it would have been both since they were pretty much a package deal at that point.

Spoken like a true spoiled "hockey" fan - that probably didn't know this team existed until 2009.

The best part about their slide the last three years is bandwagon "fans" like you will go away!!!!!!
- dahawks8819

I’ve been a fan since the early 90’s, I was born in 88’. I went to the last game ever at The Stadium. So don’t question my allegiance, female dog.

Everything posted here is pure fact and 100% represents the posters true opinion.
We do not tolerate a sense of humor or red font!!!
- Slofire94

No, it was all Bowman, he was absolutely the only one that didn't predict a currency failure a year after he gave out contracts.
- L_B_R

Actually, someone should have been at least giving out warnings of a falling Looney at the time of the two signings - and I would expect that the league office would have people (at least on a consulting basis) looking at future currency projections - and they could have done a better job.

The C$ was above par with the US$ for 2012. During 2013, the C$ steadily dropped, for US$ 1.01 in January to US$ .94 in December.

During the first six months of 2014, the Looney dropped to below US$ .90 before rising to about US$ .93 in July, when the contracts were signed. It then dramatically fell after July to $.87 in December - and continued to fall in the succeeding years to in the US$ .70s range. Currently it's at about US$ .76.

Seems to me that some in the league office should have been foreseeing the potential, at least, of the dramatic drop, as oil prices were declining at the time - I don't think that opinion is just "20-20 hindsight" - there are those who make a lot of money projecting currency rates - if they didn't, perhaps the league should have.

He was the only one that was a GM of a team that had a top player up for contract that had won two cups and been to the WC in the last while. But then Lombardi gave Kopitar a $10m contract two years later right in the middle of all the issues but let's ignore that, I guess. Let's not pretend if Doughty had been up then as well, they wouldn't have given him $10m+ still as well.

And without them signing summer of 2014, do you think they'd have their 3rd cup? Bowman was never going to have a potential Tavares situation hanging over the team, so one or both may have been moved. Or maybe they still win but one or both walk anyway and the team got nothing for them. And lbr it would have been both since they were pretty much a package deal at that point.
- L_B_R

Excuses.

If that’s all true and there was no avoiding the 21mil for those 2, then how do you explain the Seabrook contract? The Bickell contract that cost us Teravainen? All those NMCs? All the stupid trades?

The front office has built up a long line of bad decisions, so I’m not giving the benefit of the doubt anymore. 3-4 years ago maybe, but not anymore.

Excuses.

If that’s all true and there was no avoiding the 21mil for those 2, then how do you explain the Seabrook contract? The Bickell contract that cost us Teravainen? All those NMCs? All the stupid trades?

The front office has built up a long line of bad decisions, so I’m not giving the benefit of the doubt anymore. 3-4 years ago maybe, but not anymore.
- SimpleJack

Yeah - if only they'd have had a good front office and a good coaching staff this team might have won a Cup or two.

The only contract that - at the time - was a bad contract (in my opinion) was the Seabrook deal.

Actually, someone should have been at least giving out warnings of a falling Looney at the time of the two signings - and I would expect that the league office would have people (at least on a consulting basis) looking at future currency projections - and they could have done a better job.

The C$ was above par with the US$ for 2012. During 2013, the C$ steadily dropped, for US$ 1.01 in January to US$ .94 in December.

During the first six months of 2014, the Looney dropped to below US$ .90 before rising to about US$ .93 in July, when the contracts were signed. It then dramatically fell after July to $.87 in December - and continued to fall in the succeeding years to in the US$ .70s range. Currently it's at about US$ .76.

Seems to me that some in the league office should have been foreseeing the potential, at least, of the dramatic drop, as oil prices were declining at the time - I don't think that opinion is just "20-20 hindsight" - there are those who make a lot of money projecting currency rates - if they didn't, perhaps the league should have.
- StLBravesFan

Not really - the fall in the looney to sub $.90, the worst it had been in years, didn't happen after they signed their deals. At the time, the economist are doing what they did in February earlier this year - they kept saying the current tumult nature is consistent with past periods of volatility. Only in 2014, it didn't stay that way, it dropped like a rock. It still happened after the deals, though.

Either way, Bowman gets his info from the league, and outside of the drop in 2014-15, they've been accurate on the cap range and so they have no reason not to believe the NHL on cap forecasts.

There are a (frank) ton of things to complain about when it comes to Bowman without adding not being about to predict a currency failure to his list.

The talk of Hawks style of play should not be that complicated. While being a "heavy" team is fine with a dump and chase style, it's not mandatory. If the opposition is clogging up the neutral zone, then you must dump the puck and chase it down, using SPEED to create a good forecheck. Then let's see which team is more disciplined ...... after dumping and chasing the puck few times, you could very well soften up the neutral zone, where the defensemen back off more, thus permitting more space in the neutral zone to skate through it. Hawks run into problems, when they insist on getting fancy in the neutral zone, even when "it's not there" because it's clogged up. This creates turnovers the other way. Nashville implemented this two years ago in the playoffs against the Hawks, and they are fast team, not necessarily a heavy team. Made the Hawks look slow. Just dump it when you have to !

This is all a bunch of hogwash

Its not that complicated

We used to be extremely talented, the most talented team top to bottom in the NHL from 2009/10-2014/15. And thus we dominated.

Now, after gradually losing talent and regressing over the past 3-4 years due to poor front office decision making, we simply aren't that good(on paper or on the ice). It has nothing to do with dumping and chasing, playing "heavy", what style of play we're coached up to deploy, what in game adjustments we make or how good the special teams are(I'm pretty sure one of our 3 Cup runs we had the worst PP in the league statistically). And the WORST part is we aren't bad enough to fully rebuild either.

We're stuck in no mans land trying to eek out one more Cup with an overpaid core of has beens. Not gonna happen. No matter how perfectly we're coached up to play whatever system Q deploys.
- SimpleJack

This sums it up quite nicely. Consequently I believe we're past the point where "damn the future to do whatever it takes to win this season". That was the right thing to do when we were legitimate contenders and it resulted in 2 more Cups after the 09/10 breakthrough season - it's not anymore.

However, there is still reason for optimism. Toews and Kane are only 30 meaning they could still have 4 or 5 years of elite play, especially Kane. Seabrook and Keith may not have that many more "good years", but they may still have a few. If the young d-men and forwards can grow into the players we hope they become - then the Hawks could be contenders again in 2-3 years while the old core is still playing well. But "going for it this season" at the cost of the future is the absolute wrong thing to do because it isn't going to result in a Cup win this season and it's going to reduce the chances for a Cup win while the old core is still playing.

*NEW* blog up: https://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=94093

Excuses.

If that’s all true and there was no avoiding the 21mil for those 2, then how do you explain the Seabrook contract? The Bickell contract that cost us Teravainen? All those NMCs? All the stupid trades?

The front office has built up a long line of bad decisions, so I’m not giving the benefit of the doubt anymore. 3-4 years ago maybe, but not anymore.
- SimpleJack

The Seabrook contract that actually had a slightly smaller cap hit % at signing than his previous one? The Bickell contract that was technically market value (seriously look back and see who was making that amount then) and was only an issue when his undiagnosed MS really impacted him?

Some of the NMC hand outs and some of his trades are definitely questionable to terrible, but some of you guys act like this FO has been the worst in the league rather than one of the most successful. I've disliked like 90% of the stuff in the last two years, for example, including pretty much every move this summer, but that doesn't mean I'm going to ignore context of situations from years ago just because I haven't liked Bowman lately.

Not really - the fall in the looney to sub $.90, the worst it had been in years, didn't happen after they signed their deals. At the time, the economist are doing what they did in February earlier this year - they kept saying the current tumult nature is consistent with past periods of volatility. Only in 2014, it didn't stay that way, it dropped like a rock. It still happened after the deals, though.

Either way, Bowman gets his info from the league, and outside of the drop in 2014-15, they've been accurate on the cap range and so they have no reason not to believe the NHL on cap forecasts.

There are a (frank) ton of things to complain about when it comes to Bowman without adding not being about to predict a currency failure to his list.
- L_B_R

I agree that Bowman and the Hawks' organization shouldn't shoulder any of the blame in this instance - but disagree about the league office - not that they should have said "the Looney is definitely going to dramatically fall" - but rather "be careful in looking at our future cap projections because oil is falling and the Looney could be following in the future". The C$ was 10%+ below it's recent levels above par - it had fallen dramatically in 2013 and 2014 before the signing before rallying for a couple of months leading up to the July new contracts. Looking back at it (and - yes - "hindsight" and all that) - unbridled optimism should not have been the message.

Well, perhaps they did caution that and individual teams ignored the warnings.

I agree that Bowman and the Hawks' organization shouldn't shoulder any of the blame in this instance - but disagree about the league office - not that they should have said "the Looney is definitely going to dramatically fall" - but rather "be careful in looking at our future cap projections because oil is falling and the Looney could be following in the future". The C$ was 10%+ below it's recent levels above par - it had fallen dramatically in 2013 and 2014 before the signing before rallying for a couple of months leading up to the July new contracts. Looking back at it (and - yes - "hindsight" and all that) - unbridled optimism should not have been the message.

Well, perhaps they did caution that and individual teams ignored the warnings.
- StLBravesFan

They didn't caution that - all the articles quoting league and NHLPA sources leading up to that summer were doing nothing but talking about how the cap could possibly be $80m in 2-3 years.

You didn't just think of this, this literally just happened with Brooks Orpik
- GPHawksfan

The big difference is that Orpik only had 1 year left on his deal, Seabrook has 5.

Yeah - if only they'd have had a good front office and a good coaching staff this team might have won a Cup or two.

The only contract that - at the time - was a bad contract (in my opinion) was the Seabrook deal.
- StLBravesFan

Agreed with that and with seabrook. The money I was ok with, but term I was not. Now it seems, both are bad. Hope he gets back on track for a few more years. Players around 30 should not get more than 5 year contracts in my opinion.

The cap was anticipated to be much higher in the upcoming seasons after the Toews/ Kanes signings. Stan gambled and was wrong, but if their salaries were 9.5mm, would it really have been that much of a salary cap crunch?

Bickell was unknown of his illness, otherwise his contract could have been deemed worthy. It's a shame because they could have LTIR'd him as well and not lost TT if the diagnosis was found earlier.

Now people will be saying Crow's contract is crap too since he got hurt. Injuries take a toll on people and alot of time to heal and overtime gets worse. Seabrook and Toews seemed to have plunged quickly however. Who woulda known???

A crappy pitcher who pitches 75 innings a year, have ERAs over 4.00 get paid more than the best NHL players in the league.

Remember 3 CUPS! Can't win every year. It's a good think we can complain though about our favorite sports teams being true Chicago Fans!