Yeah above all else (sorry for the thread leaving the topic of RW's advanced stats), manning has revolutionized the hurry up/no- huddle offense. I still remember the time when he wanted to beat the sh!t outta jeff saturday because saturday said they should be running the ball

I've never seen a guy like him (even young aside), command an offense. Literally, he's the OC. Had he had Bill Belichick been his coach I could only imagine what those two could have done
- DeflatedPucks

That's what I was looking for: "Command an offense." When he was on the field, his word was law. You didn't question it because you know that he knew better.

That's what I was looking for: "Command an offense." When he was on the field, his word was law. You didn't question it because you know that he knew better.
- jmatchett383

I get the same sense from Tom Brady, I can't recall a single OCs name from New England to be honest. Not exactly on Peyton's level, but if anyone is even close to Peyton, it's Brady.

Has Brady really had that great of supporting cast?

The only time he's had a true #1 WR is randy moss for a stretch.

Most the New England offense seem to take advantage of specialty talents. Tight Ends, slot receivers, Dion Lewis type running back receivers. Brady is very accurate and above average emotional/intellectural intelligence, but part of me think he's a creation of Belichick. If Brady was in any other organization would he be any good or just a career back-up.

I get the same sense from Tom Brady, I can't recall a single OCs name from New England to be honest. Not exactly on Peyton's level, but if anyone is even close to Peyton, it's Brady.
- j.boyd919

Actually, and granted I was not a big football watcher until the late 90s, I think Ben is up there. He has a calmness that drives me insane some time. They call a play, and he makes sure that he checks everything thoroughly and it drives me insane because he always runs the play clock down.

Then again, you could argue that guys like Manning/Brady don't need to do all of that because they process things so much faster than him. But as far as not rushing things and making sure you have things set, I think Ben is very, very good.

I get the same sense from Tom Brady, I can't recall a single OCs name from New England to be honest. Not exactly on Peyton's level, but if anyone is even close to Peyton, it's Brady.
- j.boyd919

It's scary to think, either one or both of those guys have played in 11 of the last 15 AFC championship games.

Has Brady really had that great of supporting cast?

The only time he's had a true #1 WR is randy moss for a stretch.

Most the New England offense seem to take advantage of specialty talents. Tight Ends, slot receivers, Dion Lewis type running back receivers. Brady is very accurate and above average emotional/intellectural intelligence, but part of me think he's a creation of Belichick. If Brady was in any other organization would he be any good or just a career back-up.
- sditulli

Just checking: Is this a serious question? Are you implying that Tom Brady is a slightly better Matt Cassell?

Has Brady really had that great of supporting cast?

The only time he's had a true #1 WR is randy moss for a stretch.

Most the New England offense seem to take advantage of specialty talents. Tight Ends, slot receivers, Dion Lewis type running back receivers. Brady is very accurate and above average emotional/intellectural intelligence, but part of me think he's a creation of Belichick. If Brady was in any other organization would he be any good or just a career back-up.
- sditulli

Not sure's hes had anyone better than Randy on offense (although Im a big Gronk fan - Deion was just ok), but I think the defense (atleast for the early 00s) is the real supporting cast.

While I do like to say that Belichick led an '08 pats team sans brady to an 11-5 (and any other year that probably would have been a playoff team), I think Brady is definitely not a creation (especially since 2005) of a "system." But to his credit, he's suceeded in truly owning it

Football is lame, stop talking about it on a site dedicated to arguing about hockey. Hornqvist, Rust who cares as long as we win.

Greatest QB of all time: Matt F'n Stafford

The best QB in NFL history will never not be Joe Montana. GTFO.
- Victoro311

Joe Montana + Steve Young.

Yeah let that sink in for a minute.

Joe Montana + Steve Young.

Yeah let that sink in for a minute.
- powerhouse

Agreed. It is quite unfair for one team to have a generational talent for 15-20 years and to replace him with a generational talent.

Agreed. It is quite unfair for one team to have a generational talent for 15-20 years and to replace him with a generational talent.
- jmatchett383

Who saw that coming? It was like this guy comes off the bench and throws freking DARTS! Are you kidding me? it was like Mario had a doppelganger or for for you Bobby Clarke. I mean how is that possible?

Just a note to self;

tonite - check Shags stats against Horny. Including contract.

Then write a comment about comparing 1 player where his 'stats' depending on which ones you want to show, instead of showcasing 'all' the players that are down in scoring. Then compare scoring between said players.

Agreed. It is quite unfair for one team to have a generational talent for 15-20 years and to replace him with a generational talent.
- jmatchett383

No - or they shouldn't be. It's pretty much the norm with penguins defensmen that they have to be brought along slowly. Other than Maatta, I don't recall a pens defensemen in recent memory that developed right away. Niskanen, Duomolin, Despres and (even schultz I guess) took their time
- DeflatedPucks

I think in general with D-men, especially offensive D-men, we tend to see their progress as slower than offensive players. We want to see them drive possession, make plays, and generally help drive offense. Meanwhile, they are trying to adjust to the NHL where players are bigger and the game is faster.

First and foremost alot of these guys want to make sure they are playing sound defensively because thats what they are there for. Once they adjust to that, then they can start working on their offensive skills. I rarely hear that a rookie winger who is playing well offensively is coming along slowly because their defensive game needs work.

Not sure's hes had anyone better than Randy on offense (although Im a big Gronk fan - Deion was just ok), but I think the defense (atleast for the early 00s) is the real supporting cast.

While I do like to say that Belichick led an '08 pats team sans brady to an 11-5 (and any other year that probably would have been a playoff team), I think Brady is definitely not a creation (especially since 2005) of a "system." But to his credit, he's suceeded in truly owning it
- DeflatedPucks

I'm not sure. He may have been path dependent. If he didn't have belchick coaching him up would he have ever gotten this good? Post-2005 he already had 6 years in the system and that much time learning the game from belichick.

If belichick didn't have Brady I think he still would have won multiple Super Bowls and found a QB. Brady wasn't that Good coming out of Michigan. His body was a mess and only part of that was natural lack of athleticism. If Brady was drafted by the browns do you think he's a HOF guy? Does Goldman Sachs have better people or better culture?

I don't think Brady wins a super bowl without belichick but I think belichick wins one without Brady.

Not sure's hes had anyone better than Randy on offense (although Im a big Gronk fan - Deion was just ok), but I think the defense (atleast for the early 00s) is the real supporting cast.

While I do like to say that Belichick led an '08 pats team sans brady to an 11-5 (and any other year that probably would have been a playoff team), I think Brady is definitely not a creation (especially since 2005) of a "system." But to his credit, he's suceeded in truly owning it
- DeflatedPucks

I'm not sure. He may have been path dependent. If he didn't have belchick coaching him up would he have ever gotten this good? Post-2005 he already had 6 years in the system and that much time learning the game from belichick.

If belichick didn't have Brady I think he still would have won multiple Super Bowls and found a QB. Brady wasn't that Good coming out of Michigan. His body was a mess and only part of that was natural lack of athleticism. If Brady was drafted by the browns do you think he's a HOF guy? Does Goldman Sachs have better people or better culture?

I don't think Brady wins a super bowl without belichick but I think belichick wins one without Brady.

I don't disagree, and you obviously watched WBS more than me so you know how he's played down there (I don't get their games in NJ).

However, while it's nice to be able to round out your game, I don't think Pouliot will ever be a premier defender. I think he can be adequate defensively and potent offensively. That said, a bottom-pair role, paired with Cole, probably means that his skillset will not be maximized at the NHL level.

I'm not saying that calling him up would be a disaster. I simply think that, at the current moment, there are other players who should also be considered when all things are taken into account. I don't think that's outlandish.
- jmatchett383

If I get their games in Ontario you get them in Jersey it's not that big of a $hit hole. Pouliot was WHL and CHL dman of the year and either broke the single season scoring record or came close I forget, his play can't have disintegrated that much that he's a fringe NHL player and Roman Polak is an over a decade veteran. If Pouliot was given the same slack Maatta gets who knows where he would be at this point. Maybe if he had been playing for a worse team that could afford to let him actually learn something he would be way ahead of where he is right now. The kid can skate, he's got a wicked shot, good instincts, and confidence like a wet piece of confetti.

Just a comment on Shultz - you guys were talking about his next contract, if he were to be taken out of the Pens system & put into a different one, who thinks he would still find success?

Is his play getting better or is he fitting the system that fits his style of play? He's got history & im not so sure another GM will have confidence in his ability over his situation he's in right now. So in saying that he may just accept a reasonable contract that keeps him in a team that fits his skill set.
- Aussiepenguin

Success and confidence breeds success and confidence. Getting out of the Oilers garbage organization can do wonders for your success rates, just ask Devan Dubnyk.

Thanks for the whole page of Football talk to skip over guys my time is limited tonight, the ER is crazy busy, must be the $hitty weather!

Football is lame, stop talking about it on a site dedicated to arguing about hockey. Hornqvist, Rust who cares as long as we win.
- Grinder47

I just choked, I can't believe I agree with you, well the first part. Hornqvist and Rust are excellent. But seriously football is almost as boring as baseball and golf. 7 seconds of action and then everyone stands around for 10 minutes trying to keep their hands warm.

Who saw that coming? It was like this guy comes off the bench and throws freking DARTS! Are you kidding me? it was like Mario had a doppelganger or for for you Bobby Clarke. I mean how is that possible?
- powerhouse

Um Mario did have a doppelgänger named Jaromir Jagr, perhaps you have heard of him? And except for for 4 years there in the early 2000s the Penguins have had a generational talent playing for them for over 30 years, often times 2 at the same time.

Um Mario did have a doppelgänger named Jaromir Jagr, perhaps you have heard of him? And except for for 4 years there in the early 2000s the Penguins have had a generational talent playing for them for over 30 years, often times 2 at the same time.
- Dcoms

We are really lucky have had all these stars like Mario, Jagr, Malkin, Sid and Fehr

I just choked, I can't believe I agree with you, well the first part. Hornqvist and Rust are excellent. But seriously football is almost as boring as baseball and golf. 7 seconds of action and then everyone stands around for 10 minutes trying to keep their hands warm.
- Dcoms

Yeah everytime I see someone walking around with a number 7 steelers jersey I get that feeling like when your watching a movie and something embarrassing is about to happen to someone and you feel embarrassed for the person. I feel bad saying this because of my dad and brother but you almost have to be a little slow to enjoy football, being overweight wearing sweatpants everyday and raping and hitting women help too.