Just a comment on Shultz - you guys were talking about his next contract, if he were to be taken out of the Pens system & put into a different one, who thinks he would still find success?

Is his play getting better or is he fitting the system that fits his style of play? He's got history & im not so sure another GM will have confidence in his ability over his situation he's in right now. So in saying that he may just accept a reasonable contract that keeps him in a team that fits his skill set.

That Tom Brady line is getting old
- willi

nah, but tom brady is

The best QB in NFL history will never not be Joe Montana. GTFO.
- Victoro311

6 trips to the SB
4 SB wins (Montana was 4-0, pretty (frank)in good)
11 Pro bowls to Montana's 8
2 Time passing leader to Montana's 0
4 time TD passing leader to Montana's 2

although Montana had a marginally better completion pct. in playoffs and 95.6 QBR to Brady's 88.0.. I still gotta go with Brady.

I can see the argument, but gimme Brady all day.

Just a comment on Shultz - you guys were talking about his next contract, if he were to be taken out of the Pens system & put into a different one, who thinks he would still find success?

Is his play getting better or is he fitting the system that fits his style of play? He's got history & im not so sure another GM will have confidence in his ability over his situation he's in right now. So in saying that he may just accept a reasonable contract that keeps him in a team that fits his skill set.
- Aussiepenguin

That is a fantastic question. I think it's a bit of both, honestly, with each one feeding the other. He's a skilled player who needs to be put into a system that preaches high-octane skill in order to succeed. Taking that skillset into a system that doesn't give him the same freedom will not have the same statistical success.

That said, NHL GMs are nothing short of silly and generally short-sighted, so I'm sure he could find a host of suitors.

6 trips to the SB
4 SB wins
11 Pro bowls to Montana's 8
2 Time passing leader to Montana's 0
4 time TD passing leader to Montana's 2

although Montana had a marginally better completion pct. in playoffs and 95.6 QBR to Brady's 88.0.. I still gotta go with Brady.
- j.boyd919

Sadly, I agree. The numbers back it up. That said, if Montana's team got a free 15 yards every time someone breathed within 5 feet on him, he may have been even better. Hard to compare different eras.

6 trips to the SB
4 SB wins (Montana was 4-0, pretty (frank)in good)
11 Pro bowls to Montana's 8
2 Time passing leader to Montana's 0
4 time TD passing leader to Montana's 2

although Montana had a marginally better completion pct. in playoffs and 95.6 QBR to Brady's 88.0.. I still gotta go with Brady.

I can see the argument, but gimme Brady all day.
- j.boyd919

0 picks in the super bowl for Montana and Tom Brady isn't called the Comeback Kid.

Edit: also Tom Brady is 4-2 in the super bowl and lost to two mediocre giants teams. Montana is undefeated.

0 picks in the super bowl for Montana and Tom Brady isn't called the Comeback Kid.

Edit: also Tom Brady is 4-2 in the super bowl and lost to two mediocre giants teams. Montana is undefeated.
- Victoro311

Eli Manning, Aaron Rodgers, Joe Flacco > Tom Brady

Honestly, I think that football, more than any other sport, is judged by trips to the Finals (SuperBowl) as opposed to actual championships. In a one game winner takes all, anything can happen. In the other 3 major sports, you have a best-of setup that tries to account for good/bad days. It doesn't change the winner/loser, but I think that simply GETTING to the Super Bowl is just as important as winning it when you talk about worth of a player.

6 trips to the SB
4 SB wins (Montana was 4-0, pretty (frank)in good)
11 Pro bowls to Montana's 8
2 Time passing leader to Montana's 0
4 time TD passing leader to Montana's 2

although Montana had a marginally better completion pct. in playoffs and 95.6 QBR to Brady's 88.0.. I still gotta go with Brady.

I can see the argument, but gimme Brady all day.
- j.boyd919

We shouldn't putting so much weight on superbowls, considering Joe Namath has won one and Dan Marino, one of the GOATs, hasn't

I don't think either brady or montana are the "best QB" of all time. Best champions maybe

We shouldn't putting so much weight on superbowls, considering Joe Namath has won one and Dan Marino, one of the GOATs, hasn't

I don't think either brady or montana are the "best QB" of all time. Best champions maybe
- DeflatedPucks

1. Neil O'Donnell
2. Kurt Warner
3-12. Neil O'Donell
13: tie between Neil O'Donnell and Steve Young

1. Neil O'Donnell
2. Kurt Warner
3-12. Neil O'Donell
13: tie between Neil O'Donnell and Steve Young
- jmatchett383

Steve Young is criminally underrated. The Original and in my opinon, greatest dual threat quarterback of all time (for now).

That is a fantastic question. I think it's a bit of both, honestly, with each one feeding the other. He's a skilled player who needs to be put into a system that preaches high-octane skill in order to succeed. Taking that skillset into a system that doesn't give him the same freedom will not have the same statistical success.

That said, NHL GMs are nothing short of silly and generally short-sighted, so I'm sure he could find a host of suitors.
- jmatchett383

I agree its both. I still think whenever he is UFA other teams will be interested. maybe not 1st pairing money, but he will get 2nd pairing money in my opinion and from what I can tell he can be a 2nd pairing guy in most systems once he fine tunes a few more things. He's not as bad as he was in Edmonton and maybe he won't be as good as he is here.

Steve Young is criminally underrated. The Original and in my opinon, greatest dual threat quarterback of all time (for now).
- DeflatedPucks

I do agree. Maybe not exactly Chuck Batch great, but very good.

No, seriously, I agree 100%.

0 picks in the super bowl for Montana and Tom Brady isn't called the Comeback Kid.

Edit: also Tom Brady is 4-2 in the super bowl and lost to two mediocre giants teams. Montana is undefeated.
- Victoro311

You're aware Tom Brady has more 4th quarter comebacks than Montana right?

We shouldn't putting so much weight on superbowls, considering Joe Namath has won one and Dan Marino, one of the GOATs, hasn't

I don't think either brady or montana are the "best QB" of all time. Best champions maybe
- DeflatedPucks

I would agree if it was between 1 or 2.. but he went to 6. And his statistics were insane every year.

We shouldn't putting so much weight on superbowls, considering Joe Namath has won one and Dan Marino, one of the GOATs, hasn't

I don't think either brady or montana are the "best QB" of all time. Best champions maybe
- DeflatedPucks

Who would be your best QB of all-time?

Who would be your best QB of all-time?
- j.boyd919

Are we including Ryan Leaf?

I would agree if it was between 1 or 2.. but he went to 6. And his statistics were insane every year.
- j.boyd919

Oh without a doubt, Brady or Rodgers are the best 2 pure pocket passers in the game today. And going to six superbowls is a rare feat that perhaps may not be duplicated again by a single starting player for one team.

However,

- Brady wasn't really an upper echelon player until maybe 2004/2005 (and I'm factoring regular season into this).

- Bill Belichick. I respect the hell out of him and also those Ted Bruschi-led defenses.

Brady in my books is definitely in the top 5 quarterbacks of all time

Oh without a doubt, Brady or Rodgers are the best 2 pure pocket passers in the game today. And going to six superbowls is a rare feat that perhaps may not be duplicated again by a single starting player for one team.

However,

- Brady wasn't really an upper echelon player until maybe 2004/2005 (and I'm factoring regular season into this).

- Bill Belichick. I respect the hell out of him and also those Ted Bruschi-led defenses.

Brady in my books is definitely in the top 5 quarterbacks of all time
- DeflatedPucks

How do you figure this? After his first full season (2001), he was a top-5 QB, from what I remember (I followed them because I was a Bledsoe fan to begin with). I think that he was great after his first full season.

I do agree that his coach and supporting cast were great. But I think this can be said of every great QB. If you take an QB and don't give him a good defense to give him the ball, a good line to protect him, good receivers to throw to, and good play calls that allow him to make throws to those receivers, he won't look that great.

Who would be your best QB of all-time?
- j.boyd919

This here is a question which I know everyone will disagree with me on. But if we're really considering the "best quarterback" and factoring in the other 10 players (remember this ain't lebron's NBA) who are key to a team, I think its best to go by the era. (As much as I respected Terry Bradshaw and 4 superbowls, no way in hell) I think the shortlist is:

80s: Marino/Montana
90s: Young
00-10s: Manning/Brady
[don't ask me to go back further, I hate joe namath's guts)

My pick is: Marino (personal fave: steve young)

In a similar way if you had asked me the best running back, Emmit Smith would not be it. (btw, i would say Sanders)

How do you figure this? After his first full season (2001), he was a top-5 QB, from what I remember (I followed them because I was a Bledsoe fan to begin with). I think that he was great after his first full season.

I do agree that his coach and supporting cast were great. But I think this can be said of every great QB. If you take an QB and don't give him a good defense to give him the ball, a good line to protect him, good receivers to throw to, and good play calls that allow him to make throws to those receivers, he won't look that great.
- jmatchett383

maybe its moreso of testament to the fact that I really think Brady is much better today than he was then. Let's be real, his defenses post 2005 haven't been great and his numbers have been far better (other than his 40 time)

This here is a question which I know everyone will disagree with me on. But if we're really considering the "best quarterback" and factoring in the other 10 players (remember this ain't lebron's NBA) who are key to a team, I think its best to go by the era. (As much as I respected Terry Bradshaw and 4 superbowls, no way in hell) I think the shortlist is:

80s: Marino/Montana
90s: Young
00-10s: Manning/Brady

- DeflatedPucks[don't ask me to go back further, I hate joe namath's guts)

My pick is: Marino (personal fave: steve young)

In a similar way if you had asked me the best running back, Emmit Smith would not be it. (btw, i would say Sanders)

Definitely agree with Sanders being the best RB ever.

I feel like Marino, Montana, Young, Brady, and Manning are top 5 of all time easily. An argument could be made for any of them as best ever.

This here is a question which I know everyone will disagree with me on. But if we're really considering the "best quarterback" and factoring in the other 10 players (remember this ain't lebron's NBA) who are key to a team, I think its best to go by the era. (As much as I respected Terry Bradshaw and 4 superbowls, no way in hell) I think the shortlist is:

80s: Marino/Montana
90s: Young
00-10s: Manning/Brady

- DeflatedPucks[don't ask me to go back further, I hate joe namath's guts)

My pick is: Marino (personal fave: steve young)

In a similar way if you had asked me the best running back, Emmit Smith would not be it. (btw, i would say Sanders)

I think that, while Tom Brady is the best big-game QB of all time, the best player at the QB position is Peyton Manning. The guy basically was his team's offensive coordinator. He simply understood how to be a QB on a level I've never seen before. If someone asked me to name a player that defines a quarterback, he would be my pick. Does that makes sense?

That said, if I need a QB to win me one game, I'm going Brady all day.

Definitely agree with Sanders being the best RB ever.

I feel like Marino, Montana, Young, Brady, and Manning are top 5 of all time easily. An argument could be made for any of them as best ever.
- j.boyd919

It's such a hard topic to approach because you can't separate the championships from the player nor the supporting cast, and yet you can't value them too highly either.

Take a guy like Brees. I'm not saying he's bad or anything, but dude is pure about chucking the rock. He gets the yardage and some ducks. He'll probably take away some of the passing records from Manning or Favre, but he just doesn't have the ability to drag a mediocre saints team to the playoffs. On the other hand a guy like Manning, who misses one season and his team goes 2-14 and gets the first overall pick.

I think that, while Tom Brady is the best big-game QB of all time, the best player at the QB position is Peyton Manning. The guy basically was his team's offensive coordinator. He simply understood how to be a QB on a level I've never seen before. If someone asked me to name a player that defines a quarterback, he would be my pick. Does that makes sense?

That said, if I need a QB to win me one game, I'm going Brady all day.
- jmatchett383

It does, but I'm with you, I would never pick Manning over Brady for a single game. Season. Playoff or anything to be honest.

I think that, while Tom Brady is the best big-game QB of all time, the best player at the QB position is Peyton Manning. The guy basically was his team's offensive coordinator. He simply understood how to be a QB on a level I've never seen before. If someone asked me to name a player that defines a quarterback, he would be my pick. Does that makes sense?

That said, if I need a QB to win me one game, I'm going Brady all day.
- jmatchett383

Yeah above all else (sorry for the thread leaving the topic of RW's advanced stats), manning has revolutionized the hurry up/no- huddle offense. I still remember the time when he wanted to beat the sh!t outta jeff saturday because saturday said they should be running the ball

I've never seen a guy like him (even young aside), command an offense. Literally, he's the OC. Had he had Bill Belichick been his coach I could only imagine what those two could have done