So its been awhile since I made a call to our (my preferred) AHL guru.. Rev.
REVVVVVVVVVVV! Give me the scoop on Guentzel! He tore it up in our AHL playoffs, also a center. I legit am not crazy on Sund, could Guentzel compete for that 4th line center spot?
I don't understand why people keep insisting that the cap forces the Pens to trade Fleury, the cap has no effect on the decision at all because they can easily fit both Fleury & Murray and return the entire team minus Lovejoy & Cullen if they want to, even the impending expansion draft shouldn't have a great deal of impact on the decision because there's over a year and 3 prime trade time frames before the draft will happen, if someone blows you away during the off season and the deal improves the team then by all means you do it but if the offers aren't great and don't help the team then you stand pat and see if they improve at the next 2 trade periods, if the offers are already low then there should be no fear of diminishing value, if the current deal doesn't help the team then getting a little less really shouldn't matter. What is going to be the biggest factor in the decision is Fleury's willingness to play in a time share and battle for the net, if Fleury and his agent ask for or demand a trade then that forces their hands to have to make a move now but that the only thing that should force them to make a move quickly.
I don't understand why people keep insisting that the cap forces the Pens to trade Fleury, the cap has no effect on the decision at all because they can easily fit both Fleury & Murray and return the entire team minus Lovejoy & Cullen if they want to, even the impending expansion draft shouldn't have a great deal of impact on the decision because there's over a year and 3 prime trade time frames before the draft will happen, if someone blows you away during the off season and the deal improves the team then by all means you do it but if the offers aren't great and don't help the team then you stand pat and see if they improve at the next 2 trade periods, if the offers are already low then there should be no fear of diminishing value, if the current deal doesn't help the team then getting a little less really shouldn't matter. What is going to be the biggest factor in the decision is Fleury's willingness to play in a time share and battle for the net, if Fleury and his agent ask for or demand a trade then that forces their hands to have to make a move now but that the only thing that should force them to make a move quickly. - jaydogg1974
Maatta extrension coming in, and no Kunitz retire/trade... we are very tight on the cap and need to fill a few holes in roster spots. Something needs to move.
I don't understand why people keep insisting that the cap forces the Pens to trade Fleury, the cap has no effect on the decision at all because they can easily fit both Fleury & Murray and return the entire team minus Lovejoy & Cullen if they want to, even the impending expansion draft shouldn't have a great deal of impact on the decision because there's over a year and 3 prime trade time frames before the draft will happen, if someone blows you away during the off season and the deal improves the team then by all means you do it but if the offers aren't great and don't help the team then you stand pat and see if they improve at the next 2 trade periods, if the offers are already low then there should be no fear of diminishing value, if the current deal doesn't help the team then getting a little less really shouldn't matter. What is going to be the biggest factor in the decision is Fleury's willingness to play in a time share and battle for the net, if Fleury and his agent ask for or demand a trade then that forces their hands to have to make a move now but that the only thing that should force them to make a move quickly. - jaydogg1974
With the salary escalator activated, the cap is likely going to be going up by 3 mil again, which means smooth sailing for us. MAF needs to be moved because of expansion not cap issues. Fleury could also want to go be a starter somewhere else, but I don't pretend to know what players want. Unless we're talking about the Geno wants to go be the man somewhere else debate. I'll argue that hypothetical into the ground.
So its been awhile since I made a call to our (my preferred) AHL guru.. Rev.
REVVVVVVVVVVV! Give me the scoop on Guentzel! He tore it up in our AHL playoffs, also a center. I legit am not crazy on Sund, could Guentzel compete for that 4th line center spot? - Guile
Rev will know better than me but from what I've seen he's more of a top 9 type player than a guy that will slot into a 4th line role. I would expect that if Cullen does retire then Sundqvist will be the 4C and Guentzel will be in line for an injury callup if someone in the top 9 goes down and he continues his torrid play to start next year. Although with their 4 scoring line approach I could see them finding a way to use a fast, high skill but undersized player in a 4th line role.
Murray needs to be the guy to go...he's not as good as his stats, but there is a rage on his value now and it will not likely ever be higher. CAL desperately needs a starting goalie and I could see them dealing Hamilton or a high pick in a trade for him. Either way, do what it takes to get #6 and then swap it up to CLB to get #3 or EDM to get #4 and (likely) solve the long-term top line winger situation now while you have the chance. What it will take?
Murray + #55/61 to CGY for #6
#6 + Pouliot to CLB for #3 + #65
Note:
1. Likely Pouliot will need to be protected in expansion as well, and while he still has a lot of upside, I'd rather protect other players...
2. It seems players will vote for 5% cap increase, so it will be around $74mil and so cap room isn't likely to be an issue and most of the roster will be returning next year without issue, plus have room under the cap.
Why does CGY do it? Well, they need a goalie long term and Murray is really a great option. Andersen from ANA is also out there, which could nix the above as CGY could attain him and keep #6 but Murray will be cheaper for longer, so I think they prefer him. They already have good young forward depth and the #6 will likely be 2-3 years away, Murray helps now and later.
Why does CLB do it? They need young puck moving D, and dropping to #6 still gives them a very solid player...particularly at C where they are weak.
Why does PIT do it? Cap room is nice, but not going to be a major issue this year, and finding a potential long-term solution at top-line winger (who could likely contribute this year) is tough to pass up. Murray has a lot of potential, but there are gaps in his game and Fleury is still solid, Jarry playing OK in minors...plus still have 2-3 years to worry about replacing Fleury anyway. By that time, #3 (Puljajarvi or Tkachuk) will be getting into their prime and keeping the team chugging along. Also, if Murray turns out to be only average (or worse), then PIT has a major problem that could derail their chances at winning cup in next 2-3 years.
Maatta extrension coming in, and no Kunitz retire/trade... we are very tight on the cap and need to fill a few holes in roster spots. Something needs to move. - Guile
They have 13F-6D-2G under contract for next year and will have anywhere between 1.5M-2.9M in cap space after the Dupuis LTIR depending on the escalator, they can easily field the same roster next year as this year sans Lovejoy & Cullen and still have room for some upgrades.
So its been awhile since I made a call to our (my preferred) AHL guru.. Rev.
REVVVVVVVVVVV! Give me the scoop on Guentzel! He tore it up in our AHL playoffs, also a center. I legit am not crazy on Sund, could Guentzel compete for that 4th line center spot? - Guile
I think Sundqvist is going to be a solid 4th line shutdown guy. Whether that's what the Penguins want or not remains to be seen.
It's not talked about much, but the other big factor in terms of the Penguins' depth was that they could use their 4th line against other teams' top lines and in defensive situations which allowed them to get the matchups they wanted elsewhere. With Sundqvist instead of Cullen, is that 4th capable of being a shutdown line?
They have 13F-6D-2G under contract for next year and will have anywhere between 1.5M-2.9M in cap space after the Dupuis LTIR depending on the escalator, they can easily field the same roster next year as this year sans Lovejoy & Cullen and still have room for some upgrades. - jaydogg1974
One injury to anyone remotely decent, and we are at the spot we found ourselves in two years ago.
@Hardnosed: I disagree. Schultz's upside trumps in my opinion. Also, Rev and Schultz play the right side. DP is competing with Dumoulin, Maatta, and Cole, not the other two. Unless he learns to play the right side, of course. It would be really ideal for us if Dumo, Maatta, or DP could learn to play the right side, assuming we keep DP.
With the salary escalator activated, the cap is likely going to be going up by 3 mil again, which means smooth sailing for us. MAF needs to be moved because of expansion not cap issues. Fleury could also want to go be a starter somewhere else, but I don't pretend to know what players want. Unless we're talking about the Geno wants to go be the man somewhere else debate. I'll argue that hypothetical into the ground. - Victoro311
I agree that Fleury will eventually need to be moved because of the expansion draft but as I pointed out, they have 3 prime trade periods before the expansion draft so there is no pressing need to move him now unless it's the right deal. Fleury wanting moved should be the only thing that forces them to make the move now, otherwise they can be patient and wait out the right deal.
I think Sundqvist is going to be a solid 4th line shutdown guy. Whether that's what the Penguins want or not remains to be seen.
It's not talked about much, but the other big factor in terms of the Penguins' depth was that they could use their 4th line against other teams' top lines and in defensive situations which allowed them to get the matchups they wanted elsewhere. With Sundqvist instead of Cullen, is that 4th capable of being a shutdown line? - hardnosed
I see Sundqvist as essentially being the same player as Fehr. They're both C/RW as well. I see Sundqvist stepping in for Fehr when Fehr inevitably gets injured and stepping in full time into Fehr's role when his contract expires or gets traded.
I agree that Fleury will eventually need to be moved because of the expansion draft but as I pointed out, they have 3 prime trade periods before the expansion draft so there is no pressing need to move him now unless it's the right deal. Fleury wanting moved should be the only thing that forces them to make the move now, otherwise they can be patient and wait out the right deal. - jaydogg1974
It gets harder to deal him with every passing trade period because we have less and less leverage. That's a very dangerous game to play.
I see Sundqvist as essentially being the same player as Fehr. They're both C/RW as well. I see Sundqvist stepping in for Fehr when Fehr inevitably gets injured and stepping in full time into Fehr's role when his contract expires or gets traded. - Victoro311
Fehr finally looking healthy and in better shape in the final series was freaking nice.
That injury he had in the middle-end of the season just crippled his getting into top form. Same as Maatta, but him having a much lesser role made it easier to ignore.
"The Penguins can learn a lesson from the Blackhawks in this regard. Don't "reward" depth players with bigger contracts than they deserve. Pay your best and continue to fill out the fringe positions on the roster as cheaply as possible. If you don't keep your loyalty in check to players you won with in the end it will cost you the better more important players."
I don't agree entirely. It depends on the depth player and what they bring you in they playoffs. Certain ones are crucial to playoff success and shouldn't be looked at as disposable per se.
This thinking that as long as you have your core players the rest can be replaced like lightbulbs is what over the long run turned them from contenders into pretenders after 2009 and before this season. Shero's biggest flaw was he didn't value the depth enough as the core, and as we all just witnessed, quality depth is every bit as important as the star players, and not just any depth player is going to be adequate.
Of course you won't keep a Cullen at the expense of a Malkin or Kessel but you better be able to find an adequate replacement or it doesn't matter who your superstars are in the end. Sometimes there's no rhyme or reason to it, but if you have it and it works for whatever reason, you should do everything to keep it together and if at all possible, try to make it even better.
One injury to anyone remotely decent, and we are at the spot we found ourselves in two years ago.
Rather have a bit of breathing room. - Guile
I guess that depends on the extent of the injury, I think they have enough depth in WBS with guys like Guentzel and Simon that could carry them through short term injuries, if it's long term then they're in the same situation as they were in this year with Dupuis and they just place the player on LTIR and use that savings plus the extra cap room to upgrade then. If they can make moves that upgrade the roster then I have no issue making the move after the fact as a salary dump but I don't think making the move first and then hoping to upgrade is a smart approach, having a ton of cap space but not being able to acquire upgrades does them nothing.
@Hardnosed: I disagree. Schultz's upside trumps in my opinion. Also, Rev and Schultz play the right side. DP is competing with Dumoulin, Maatta, and Cole, not the other two. Unless he learns to play the right side, of course. It would be really ideal for us if Dumo, Maatta, or DP could learn to play the right side, assuming we keep DP. - Victoro311
My point was that they were reluctant to play Daley/Schultz/Pouliot all at the same time because all three of those guys struggle in their own zone occasionally. Lovejoy just gives them a little versatility. They also know what they're getting with Lovejoy, and we still don't really know who Schultz is.
