I dont see stamkos signing with either

if he wants 10+ i dont want him anyway, a year or 2 of 40+ goals might be great but whats about years 4-7 at 10m
- digitalbath

He's 26...

He'll score 30+ every one of those 7 years he signs for (barring injuries). Have you seen how low-scoring the league is now and how unique consistent snipers are? Sign me up for that. Without Datsyuk, and if you move his contract, I say throw $63 million at him. $10 million/year if he really needs it. Richards and Green showed last summer that Detroit is still a desirable location to play. And, with Green's history setting up Ovechkin, you see what he could do with Stammer on the PP? I'm game.

I'm a big Stammer fan, though.

Yeah, I don't think so.
- djamon

That's too bad that your thoughts don't dictate the CBA and how contract trading is dictated, though. Fact is, if Datsyuk and the Red Wings mutually terminate his contract, it will be entirely trade-able by the law of the CBA.

That's too bad that your thoughts don't dictate the CBA and how contract trading is dictated, though. Fact is, if Datsyuk and the Red Wings mutually terminate his contract, it will be entirely trade-able by the law of the CBA.
- TwoPieceFeed

I'd love to see proof of this, or an example where a retired player was traded. Maybe he doesn't have to actually retire in order to play in the KHL? If that's the case then he would still have to be paid.

Savard and Pronger were traded, but neither of them actually retired. They still get paid, but stay on LTIR. Nathan Horton is another example of this.

I'd love to see proof of this, or an example where a retired player was traded. Maybe he doesn't have to actually retire in order to play in the KHL? If that's the case then he would still have to be paid.

Savard and Pronger were traded, but neither of them actually retired. They still get paid, but stay on LTIR. Nathan Horton is another example of this.
- djamon

I mean i dont understand all the rules of how this works, but according to everything ive read and heard on the radio seems to point to, we can trade his "rights" to a cap floor team

I mean i dont understand all the rules of how this works, but according to everything ive read and heard on the radio seems to point to, we can trade his "rights" to a cap floor team
- digitalbath

Before he announces his retirement perhaps. But not after.

I mean i dont understand all the rules of how this works, but according to everything ive read and heard on the radio seems to point to, we can trade his "rights" to a cap floor team
- digitalbath

generalfanager has stated they think an option is to trade him. they seem legit.

outside of AZ (i'm not even sure they need the caphit), i'm not sure which team will need the caphit next year.

i also see the trade market to be quite a bit different than pronger/savard who were ltir eligible and had marginal cap implications to philly/bos.

i suspect there will be a cost to the wings to move out $7.5m in dead cap space.

At the time of the trade Arizona was also below cap floor. They got to move out 3.2 million in "real salary" and bring back a 5 million dollar cap hit for a "real cost" of 600K.

Detroit may be able to find a team on an internal budget to take on a big cap hit for zero real dollars.
- smellmyfinger

in terms of actual salary, gagners actual salary going out ($3.2M) pretty much equaled what came back from grossman ($3m after $500k retained) and pronger (20% of 600k or approx $120k - the nhl's insurance policy covers 80% of injured players contracts).

in terms of actual salary, gagners actual salary going out ($3.2M) pretty much equaled what came back from grossman ($3m after $500k retained) and pronger (20% of 600k or approx $120k - the nhl's insurance policy covers 80% of injured players contracts).
- Tumbleweed

Understood. But that 3.2 million in salary was 8 million in cap hit, which put them comfortably above cap floor. I'd expect that if the Wings are allowed to trade a "retired" contract, there will be a taker for Datsyuks cap hit at zero cost for a team trying to stay above floor.

Understood. But that 3.2 million in salary was 8 million in cap hit, which put them comfortably above cap floor. I'd expect that if the Wings are allowed to trade a "retired" contract, there will be a taker for Datsyuks cap hit at zero cost for a team trying to stay above floor.
- smellmyfinger

agreed - the yotes got the favorable economics on the caphits for them.

teams don't do each other salary cap favors anymore. i think there will be a cost to move datsyuk's caphit ... but, it'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

this trade will set the market for a pure move of entirely dead cap space.

I'd love to see proof of this, or an example where a retired player was traded. Maybe he doesn't have to actually retire in order to play in the KHL? If that's the case then he would still have to be paid.

Savard and Pronger were traded, but neither of them actually retired. They still get paid, but stay on LTIR. Nathan Horton is another example of this.
- djamon

I didn't mention any retirement in my posts. Please pay careful attention. Datsyuk and the Red Wings can mutually agree to terminate his contract. That's why I said, "See: Kovalchuk". This legally voids the Red Wings of any financial expectations and all requirement of Datsyuk to play only in the NHL among professional hockey leagues bound by the IIHF. What does not get terminated, by law of the CBA, is Detroit's commitment of $7.5 million towards the Salary Cap. That commitment can be traded to any team, at any time outside standard deadlines, and carries $0 of payout.

Any team with $8 million in dead cap space would be crazy not to take a free 7th Round Pick if they have no intent on spending that money. Or even a prospect with no future in Detroit (Sproul).

I didn't mention any retirement in my posts. Please pay careful attention. Datsyuk and the Red Wings can mutually agree to terminate his contract. That's why I said, "See: Kovalchuk". This legally voids the Red Wings of any financial expectations and all requirement of Datsyuk to play only in the NHL among professional hockey leagues bound by the IIHF. What does not get terminated, by law of the CBA, is Detroit's commitment of $7.5 million towards the Salary Cap. That commitment can be traded to any team, at any time outside standard deadlines, and carries $0 of payout.

Any team with $8 million in dead cap space would be crazy not to take a free 7th Round Pick if they have no intent on spending that money. Or even a prospect with no future in Detroit (Sproul).
- TwoPieceFeed

but which team will that be?

I didn't mention any retirement in my posts. Please pay careful attention. Datsyuk and the Red Wings can mutually agree to terminate his contract. That's why I said, "See: Kovalchuk". This legally voids the Red Wings of any financial expectations and all requirement of Datsyuk to play only in the NHL among professional hockey leagues bound by the IIHF. What does not get terminated, by law of the CBA, is Detroit's commitment of $7.5 million towards the Salary Cap. That commitment can be traded to any team, at any time outside standard deadlines, and carries $0 of payout.

Any team with $8 million in dead cap space would be crazy not to take a free 7th Round Pick if they have no intent on spending that money. Or even a prospect with no future in Detroit (Sproul).
- TwoPieceFeed

I agree in principle, but here's the issue for the Wings. Kovy was not on a 35+ contract, Datsyuk is, and the Devils have a 250k cap recapture penalty from now until the end of time for the one year of front loading on his contract that he did play out.

agreed - the yotes got the favorable economics on the caphits for them.

teams don't do each other salary cap favors anymore. i think there will be a cost to move Datsyuk's cap hit ... but, it'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

this trade will set the market for a pure move of entirely dead cap space.
- Tumbleweed

It's complete and utter bullpoop how arbitrary the league is in enforcing the CBA. They use the vague language of "violating the spirit of the CBA".

If I'm the Wings, I do everything in my power to move Datsyuks contract and if the league has a problem with it I take them to arbitration. There is so much precedence of teams using loopholes.

Uncle Lou forcing Mogilny to retire and trading away a first round pick along with dead salary to SJ in order to make space for Elias to return.

Teams like the Rangers burying Reddens salary in the AHL.

The Flyers signing a front loaded Pronger contract until he is 43 years old.

The Franzen, Weber, Hossa contracts until a team pushed it just a little too far (Kovy).

Toronto trading Clarkson for a dead body to gain relief through IR.

Arizona acquiring dead space so they don't have to pony up real salary to get to cap floor.

The Wings would have an outstanding case if the league tried to prevent them from moving Datsyuks contract.

It's complete and utter bullpoop how arbitrary the league is in enforcing the CBA. They use the vague language of "violating the spirit of the CBA".

If I'm the Wings, I do everything in my power to move Datsyuks contract and if the league has a problem with it I take them to arbitration. There is so much precedence of teams using loopholes.

Uncle Lou forcing Mogilny to retire and trading away a first round pick along with dead salary to SJ in order to make space for Elias to return.

Teams like the Rangers burying Reddens salary in the AHL.

The Flyers signing a front loaded Pronger contract until he is 43 years old.

The Franzen, Weber, Hossa contracts until a team pushed it just a little too far (Kovy).

Toronto trading Clarkson for a dead body to gain relief through IR.

Arizona acquiring dead space so they don't have to pony up real salary to get to cap floor.

The Wings would have an outstanding case if the league tried to prevent them from moving Datsyuks contract.
- smellmyfinger

replied to the wrong post?

seems like fair game to me to move the cap space based on what i've read/seen in the past.

i question what the market will be and if/what the cost will be to move out $7.5m in space.

replied to the wrong post?

seems like fair game to me to move the cap space based on what i've read/seen in the past.

i question what the market will be and if/what the cost will be to move out $7.5m in space.
- Tumbleweed

Yeah

Point stands though.

Yeah

Point stands though.
- smellmyfinger

i suspect datsyuk has good relationship with the wings.

even if the nhl were to say datsyuk's caphit can't be moved after he retires/terminates/or whatevers his contract, i would think he would wait to do that whatever until after he is traded (if necessary to help the wings out).

I didn't mention any retirement in my posts. Please pay careful attention. Datsyuk and the Red Wings can mutually agree to terminate his contract. That's why I said, "See: Kovalchuk". This legally voids the Red Wings of any financial expectations and all requirement of Datsyuk to play only in the NHL among professional hockey leagues bound by the IIHF. What does not get terminated, by law of the CBA, is Detroit's commitment of $7.5 million towards the Salary Cap. That commitment can be traded to any team, at any time outside standard deadlines, and carries $0 of payout.

Any team with $8 million in dead cap space would be crazy not to take a free 7th Round Pick if they have no intent on spending that money. Or even a prospect with no future in Detroit (Sproul).
- TwoPieceFeed

Please explain to me how Detroit would go about trading a contract that has been terminated. Because again, I have never seen a Cap hit traded without the corresponding contract that goes with it.

i suspect datsyuk has good relationship with the wings.

even if the nhl were to say datsyuk's caphit can't be moved after he retires/terminates/or whatevers his contract, i would think he would wait to do that whatever until after he is traded (if necessary to help the wings out).
- Tumbleweed

This may be what actually happens. But as I said in my first post on this subject, it'll cost the Wings something in return.

This may be what actually happens. But as I said in my first post on this subject, it'll cost the Wings something in return.
- djamon

It honestly seems like youre more irritated that the wings wont get (frank)ed more than anything else, im not trying to be funny just seems that way

Im sure IF the wings can move his contract it wont be scott free,

The issue im having is, if Zetterberg retired or if Franzen wasnt on LTIR and ended up calling it quits, yeah sure, we "circumvented the cap" (which to me seems stupid anyway cause we followed the rules they gave us at the time, but whatever we absolutely pushed the limit) then i get that we should have cap penalties,

but datsyuk was a 3 year contract that wasnt front loaded? so i dont really get why it counts against us

It honestly seems like youre more irritated that the wings wont get (frank)ed more than anything else, im not trying to be funny just seems that way

Im sure IF the wings can move his contract it wont be scott free,

The issue im having is, if Zetterberg retired or if Franzen wasnt on LTIR and ended up calling it quits, yeah sure, we "circumvented the cap" (which to me seems stupid anyway cause we followed the rules they gave us at the time, but whatever we absolutely pushed the limit) then i get that we should have cap penalties,

but datsyuk was a 3 year contract that wasnt front loaded? so i dont really get why it counts against us
- digitalbath

re: datsyuk, i agree to certain extent on the penalty.

a full caphit penalty seems a little harsh for a +35 contract. a cap recapture penalty seems more appropriate imo.

so say a $2m penalty for datsyuk instead of the full $7.5m.

re: datsyuk, i agree to certain extent on the penalty.

a full caphit penalty seems a little harsh for a +35 contract. a cap recapture penalty seems more appropriate imo.

so say a $2m penalty for datsyuk instead of the full $7.5m.
- Tumbleweed

I would agree with that, partially. What thus will end up doing is making 35+ year old players, especially Russian/European players... Considered radioactive. They'll get 1 year offers only.

And stamkos has to do with this because if detroit has 10 Million of cap space I would suspect they'd be looking to sign a player such as he or Loui. Of course, they'd be competing against the leafs and their ability to offer perrenial futility. But they have Babs!

I would agree with that, partially. What thus will end up doing is making 35+ year old players, especially Russian/European players... Considered radioactive. They'll get 1 year offers only.

And stamkos has to do with this because if detroit has 10 Million of cap space I would suspect they'd be looking to sign a player such as he or Loui. Of course, they'd be competing against the leafs and their ability to offer perrenial futility. But they have Babs!
- datswho

the +35 rule is already in place... and much harsher than what i proposed. so no, i don't see a bunch of 1 year deals ... though, that may not be the worst thing. all moot anyways since it's baked into the cba until 2022.

uhhhh...not sure why you're bringing up stamkos, but it's TB or Tor for him. so, good luck with loui.

the +35 rule is already in place... and much harsher than what i proposed. so no, i don't see a bunch of 1 year deals ... though, that may not be the worst thing. all moot anyways since it's baked into the cba until 2022.

uhhhh...not sure why you're bringing up stamkos, but it's TB or Tor for him. so, good luck with loui.
- Tumbleweed

Like, that's just your opinion, man. Ek said he could end up detroit (e14)

I actually like Loui. Id take him for a much smaller hit.

It honestly seems like youre more irritated that the wings wont get (frank)ed more than anything else, im not trying to be funny just seems that way

Im sure IF the wings can move his contract it wont be scott free,

The issue im having is, if Zetterberg retired or if Franzen wasnt on LTIR and ended up calling it quits, yeah sure, we "circumvented the cap" (which to me seems stupid anyway cause we followed the rules they gave us at the time, but whatever we absolutely pushed the limit) then i get that we should have cap penalties,

but datsyuk was a 3 year contract that wasnt front loaded? so i dont really get why it counts against us
- digitalbath

I don't blame the Wings at all, there was zero attempt at cap circumvention here. My first post was just about what it would cost the Wings to move the contract. Then various people cited other, completely different situations (Pronger) as comparables.

I actually feel bad for the Wings, but that doesn't mean I won't hope that they get screwed in this whole thing.

Like, that's just your opinion, man. Ek said he could end up detroit (e14)

I actually like Loui. Id take him for a much smaller hit.
- datswho

the more i thin about it, there is a good chance AZ's new GM will want to send vermette and/or michalek back to the wings in a trade for datsyuk.