tredbrta
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Joined: 06.30.2012
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Condescending is when an Internet genius assumes that he knows the situation better than a guy who has been in the arena for awhile now, with demonstrated success.
BTW....that is not directed at JJ...... - mohel
Yes, that would be condescending. Always a mistake to base judgements on a limited view. For example, basing a judgement of one person based on a single source's version of PMs without actually seeing that same source's PMs to that other person. Then maintaining that judgement in spite of the fact others who viewed both sides banned the source.
Plenty of conclusions about Stan that should wait for results. I'll agree with that but not with some methods of expressing the disagreement with those conclusions here. |
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Topshelf2010
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Location: IL Joined: 09.29.2011
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Hayes and Bickell play different positions. The comparison is skewed by the fact that Hayes wouldn't have received the same amount of ice time in Chicago as he did in Florida. Hayes is a RW. He wasn't going to supplant either Hossa or Kane at that position in the top 6. So its hard to say if he would have produced more or less than Bickell did this season playing the same amount and in the same situations as Bickell did for the Hawks. - TTtime
Hmmm, Hawks were looking for someone to hang out in front of goal on pp, Bickel sometimes got that duty, but Bickels strong point is not playing with his back to the goal. Again, there is a little price variance. Also Bickel really didn't see a lot of ice anyways. |
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Fergie
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Location: Lakeside Bluff, MI Joined: 06.20.2015
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Anyone else see the interview on TV at the end of the draft, with Ducks' GM Bob Murray? They were asking him about the goalie situation at the beginning, which he answered. And about Hagelin, too, and his interest in being a "faster team."
Then he was asked whether Anaheim done? His response (and don't hold me to it verbatim) was something like "We'll see around July 3 or 4 if there's more to come."
The coy smile on his face really hit me, though... Honestly, I thought, "Oh, ****, he's gonna go after Saad." My read is that Murray wants to do something bigger to offset what the Kings have done. He's got his 2016 picks and cap room. If I'm him, I'd go after Saad with a 7x7 offer sheet if he's available, no sweat. |
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John Jaeckel
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Location: www.the-rink.com Joined: 11.19.2006
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That!
Has Stan whiffed on trades? Yes. Did he get max return in 2010? No not really.
Wouldn't call myself an apologist either but I find it funny people want to torch the guy for not doing anything splashy at the draft right after they won the Cup.
I'm hoping he does something soon as well but like Rick mentioned it's June/July...not September. - HawkintheD
No argument, my only rejoinder is time is not on his side.
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mohel
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Location: IL Joined: 02.08.2013
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Yes, that would be condescending. Always a mistake to base judgements on a limited view. For example, basing a judgement of one person based on a single source's version of PMs without actually seeing that same source's PMs to that other person. Then maintaining that judgement in spite of the fact others who viewed both sides banned the source.
Plenty of conclusions about Stan that should wait for results. I'll agree with that but not the method of expressing it. - tredbrta
Waiting for results is good. But even when they come in we get stuff like "could have had a better return for Leddy if he'd have pulled the trigger sooner." This is based on pure speculation, since we know very little about what was in front on the gm at that earlier point. Utter garbage. Not saying you said that btw. |
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John Jaeckel
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Location: www.the-rink.com Joined: 11.19.2006
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Where's the evidence that they got less for Leddy because they waited? Is this a real thing, or an opinion? - mohel
Leddy was traded October 4, right before the season started and they had to make a move, and after months where it was fairly obvious they had to trade him, or Oduya. Again, to assume no team offered on either (or both) I think is naive.
You're in the realm of "plausible deniability" to say "well you can't prove there were any offers."
OK but . . .
Common sense tells you there were conversations and offers. Was anyone floored by the return on Leddy? No. |
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John Jaeckel
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Location: www.the-rink.com Joined: 11.19.2006
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This opinion was floated and it seems to have become fact. - paulr
See immediately above. |
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tredbrta
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Joined: 06.30.2012
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Dude, dozens have been driven from this board. Some you miss dearly, and for some you cheer their absence. - mohel
Not really. I really miss only one. |
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TTtime
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Joined: 06.17.2015
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Hmmm, Hawks were looking for someone to hang out in front of goal on pp, Bickel sometimes got that duty, but Bickels strong point is not playing with his back to the goal. Again, there is a little price variance. Also Bickel really didn't see a lot of ice anyways. - Topshelf2010
Hayes wouldn't supplant either Shaw and Saad in that role on the Hawks. Regarding the ice time, that is what I am saying. Hayes wouldn't have seen the ice much either. Hayes wasn't doing those things when he was with the Hawks.
Some times a player being traded is the impetus for that player to realize the things he needs to do to be an effective player. Maybe it is exactly what happened with Hayes. Neither of us really knows. I do know that when I watched Hayes this season he made some changes. He starting to use stops and starts a lot more than he did when he was with Hawks. His wide looping turns were gone for the most part.
At the end of the day, what we do know is the Hawks won the Cup with Bickell as a member of the team. What we don't know is if they would have with Hayes. |
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mohel
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Location: IL Joined: 02.08.2013
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Leddy was traded October 4, right before the season started and they had to make a move, and after months where it was fairly obvious they had to trade him, or Oduya. Again, to assume no team offered on either (or both) I think is naive.
You're in the realm of "plausible deniability" to say "well you can't prove there were any offers."
OK but . . .
Common sense tells you there were conversations and offers. Was anyone floored by the return on Leddy? No. - John Jaeckel
I'm sure there were talks. But it is an assumption to say the return would have been better earlier. What was the trade he turned down? Unless that is known, how do you compare it the actual trade? |
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John Jaeckel
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Location: www.the-rink.com Joined: 11.19.2006
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He didnt say there were NO conversations for Sharp, he said most likely judging from the fact the other teams knew Stan is dealing from a position of weakness that the offers may have been low ball offers. - mvp0207
But you yourself said there's no "proof" there were offers for Leddy last summer. Right?
I think we're agreeing and disagreeing.
When common sense tells you there must have been—or the Hawks vacillated to the last minute on whether to trade him. Either way, results speak volumes. Who is overwhelmed by the return on Leddy? No one. Not terrible, but for a player of his credential then, and his obvious upside (which he began to live up to this past season), there's an argument they should have gotten more. |
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mohel
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Location: IL Joined: 02.08.2013
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Not really. I really miss only one. - tredbrta
That's the point. |
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John Jaeckel
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Location: www.the-rink.com Joined: 11.19.2006
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I'm sure there were talks. But it is an assumption to say the return would have been better earlier. What was the trade he turned down? Unless that is known, how do you compare it the actual trade? - mohel
See my post immediately above. My OPINION (shared by many) they should have gotten more for Leddy. What they got was a prospect goalie who refuses to play in the AHL, a career AHL defenseman and a decent D prospect who probably will not be the equal of Leddy. |
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HawkintheD
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Location: Sick Bay, MI Joined: 02.22.2012
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Not really. I really miss only one. - tredbrta
Thanks...sniff...that means a lot to me. |
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John Jaeckel
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Location: www.the-rink.com Joined: 11.19.2006
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JJ
At what point does McD. and co realize that our "corporate" decision making process needs to be shortened?
I believe this is McD's doing but now after the umpteenth time this pretty much same scenario has worked out you would think someone would say "Hey, our slow decisions are netting us Ville Pokka/David Rundblad. Let's try to speed this up and get some value while we can."
It's extremely hard to fault an organization that has done way more right than wrong to us in the past 8 years but at some point the hesitation and lack of risk taking (if you could call trading Sharp while cap strapped risk taking) is going to be too great for our Core to overcome. - hawks1921
Actually I think they have.
Here's the point, I really don't blame Stanley. I don't put him on the pedestal some do. I think he's limited by the system within the organization. Again, opinion, but supported by much i've heard and seen.
I have also heard that he and Q have become allies in keeping the front office more at bay, which is great for the team and fans. |
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Hayes is a big body and a little better around the net. hayes got paid 925k last year, 4mil for bickel. Bickel still better? or were there still cheaper options out there. - Topshelf2010
But he didn't play like he had a big body and that it's why they traded him.
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mohel
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Location: IL Joined: 02.08.2013
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But you yourself said there's no "proof" there were offers for Leddy last summer. Right?
I think we're agreeing and disagreeing.
When common sense tells you there must have been—or the Hawks vacillated to the last minute on whether to trade him. Either way, results speak volumes. Who is overwhelmed by the return on Leddy? No one. Not terrible, but for a player of his credential then, and his obvious upside (which he began to live up to this past season), there's an argument they should have gotten more. - John Jaeckel
That was the market for Leddy at that point (unless Stan blew off a better offer). Was the market better earlier? Nobody here knows that. But we all judge based on the absence of facts, which isn't fair, imo. |
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tredbrta
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Joined: 06.30.2012
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The Kings blogger wrote an excellent piece looking at the drafting and development skills of various teams. Check it out; it may help you. Turns out a lot of teams are pretty similar in this respect. - mohel
Saw the piece. Lewis is one blogger I read regularly here. Knows his stats. That was a solid piece and another reason I like Stan's approach of adding free agents and quantities of prospects. Stan still made 7 picks in this draft... add the free agent singnings it is a WIN.
When I say DL is a great drafter and evaluator it's because when the opportunity is there the last several years he has generally chosen the right player with picks and gotten the better of trades. He has also made some bad choices and contract bets. When the crucial talent choices are there he has probably chosen better than the mean. |
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wiz1901
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Location: DraftSite com, IL Joined: 05.14.2008
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I know someone thought I might have been peeing on th draft parade by making honest remarks about the “warts” that ALWAYS come on later picks. Granted the warts on picks in the top 100-110 players are smaller than the way team scouting staffs have to truly project improve with the later guys.
I thought for the benefit of the fellas here who appreciated my toggling back & forth between entering, shifting and commenting on Draftsite and throwing things up here on Buzz.
So I dug up what some positive traits that show the Hawk picks may be on the right path.
Graham Knott
Early impression: Consistently shows up every shift in all facets. Elevates linemates by drawing coverage towards him, opening ice. Very impressive how often he goes into the corners outmanned by the opposition and still comes out with the puck. Understands the defensive side very well. Very effective on the Pp. Has good speed but not exceptional. Handles the puck well and can create quality chances when it appears nothing is there. All-around solid game and a strong stride which may be his biggest asset… that must be asset that projects him as a more dominant player in the future. At the CHL prospects game, he didn’t stand out, except for an impressive solo rush where he dashed down the wing, and swung around behind the cage for a dangerous wrap-around attempt, which showcased his stride and puck control. Also gambled in the first period while at the blue line with a lateral cut that saw him take a huge hit, and a turn-over that lead to a chance for Team Orr.
Ok before I jump to pick 91 as I mentioned several times previously.
1 2 Generation players
3-11 top NHL prospects
12-20 really good high end prospects
20-40 really good high end prospects that need time and development
41 -100 good prospects that need time and development
101 - even here there are lost of intriguing long term prospects in that top 100
I didn’t have Dennis Gilbert in that top 100. In fact I got into a tweeter confrontation with the guy who runs a Western NY prospects site after he tweeted that I lost all credibility because I didn’t have the Central Scouting Service number 58 overall higher. But I have to go by my eyeball tests and I saw a big wart (DZ coverages), but I admit I saw him in November & December action, and I just read the hawks chief scout Mike Kelley said they selected him based on a huge improvement from the beginning of the season to the end, so mea culpa that I hadn’t seen that more polished version, and he wasn’t included in my top 100. When you get down to Has excellent size
Dennis Gilbert
Has excellent size, great offensive instincts, needs improvement into area of pucks skills. Has a nice stride but have to work on his short area bursts. Has some a good shot, so edge, and likes to engage physically, and is hockey smart and poised for the most part on the attack. Has a ways to go.
When you get down to end of the fourth round, teams are usually looking the raw projects they see promise in and know that the wait will be longer and possibly rewarding.
Ryan Shea
A kid from Blackhawks’ chief scouts NE backyard and you are watching a high schooler, not even a high school in the USHL, or the CHL, so the competition level might skew the viewing in his favor. Right now he is average sized. He has a hitch in his skating, and I am sure that there will be discussions about lengthening his stride and eliminating his short, choppy steps (the same thing I thought Morin had to work on)
Radovan Bondra
Remember that is so large and big man always seem to view as players who lack intensity. Has tools, but absolutely no tool box. Great size hard shot, good hands, can finish chances and some vision. His long reach enables him to protect the puck along the wall, and is tough to knock off the puck. He can create in tight spaces with good puck control and Quick moves. He is a decent skater who is still working on his acceleration, as coordination is taking time. The seems to be a lack of urgency, competitiveness, heart because he plays like a perimeter player at this juncture, and you want to see him in the battle area, and crashing the front. So he looked invisible for stretches, and when he no longer possessed the puck invisible. (I thought I said I was I was keeping it positive.) In the World Junior Challenge in December, he really performed well in a defensive role, showing good anticipation, picking off passes, selling out to clear and sacrificing his body with blocks to his big body. The wheels were good and the anticipation in the attack zone was much better, getting to where the puck was going, and letting go good dangerous shots.It was a better player than I saw in the six months prior. This is the definition of long term developmental pick and who has more time than the Blackhawks to develop any of Marian Hossa’s neighbors?
Roy Radke
Is a big right-handed winger who was an OHL rookie with Barrie Colts. At this point you hope that his best junior performances are ahead. At present, he give his coach Dale Hawerchuk flexibility of moving him in and out of lines and situations to energize the lineup or dominate in the possession game deep inside the offensive zone. The skating has to improve, and when it does maybe he taps the untapped offensive potential.
Joni Tuulola
He was bypassed all the NHL teams a year ago in 2014 Entry Draft and then advanced to playing big mounts in the men’s league in Finland. He is noticeably faster, stronger, more confident, and better than before. Still a empty canvass in parts of his development but already has a high hockey IQ and plays smart, and just needs to grow his game and body a bit more. |
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John Jaeckel
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Location: www.the-rink.com Joined: 11.19.2006
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I liken Stan Bowman to a chef who took over a pretty good restaurant just after it becomes successful. The old chef made the menu, based on his own style and possibly with some of the dishes from the previous chef, but now it's Stan's turn. He can either retool the whole menu and do whatever he wants, which is risky, or he can evaluate each dish on the menu and choose which ones to keep and which ones complement others, and then choose to add what he feels is necessary to keep the restaurant operating at a high level.
That's what I think Stan has done, and that's still not an easy thing to do. Stan is operating a three Michelin star restaurant, and even though he may not have built it, it's his job to keep it running at that three star level, year after year. In the business world, this is a very valuable skill. How many businesses start up and become extraordinarily successful only to bomb because they were mismanaged?
I think people often forget that the word "manager" is part of GM. It doesn't matter what the situation looked like when he got there, it only matters how he dealt with that situation, and so far, if you're going based on results, he's done everything you've asked him to do. One man has doubled the number of championships this team has won, and he's done it in a fifth of the time it took to win the first three.
He's earned my trust to do whatever he wants to do until this team stops being competitive. At that point, you can reevaluate. But for now, based on what he's chosen to do, missteps and all, I'm putting him among my top 3 GMs without thinking twice. - Sandus
I don't know if I put him top 3. But generally i agree. I also think he's had some luxury of learning on the job, not unlike Kenny Williams did—given a long rope. And he has. Like KW did. |
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wiz1901
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Location: DraftSite com, IL Joined: 05.14.2008
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Anyone else see the interview on TV at the end of the draft, with Ducks' GM Bob Murray? "We'll see around July 3 or 4 if there's more to come."
The coy smile on his face really hit me, though... Honestly, I thought, "Oh, ****, he's gonna go after Saad." My read is that Murray wants to do something bigger to offset what the Kings have done. He's got his 2016 picks and cap room. If I'm him, I'd go after Saad with a 7x7 offer sheet if he's available, no sweat. - Fergie
IF Saad decides to sign a Ducks offer sheet, freak'em, bye. |
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tredbrta
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Joined: 06.30.2012
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Waiting for results is good. But even when they come in we get stuff like "could have had a better return for Leddy if he'd have pulled the trigger sooner." This is based on pure speculation, since we know very little about what was in front on the gm at that earlier point. Utter garbage. Not saying you said that btw. - mohel
Agree 100%.
I do believe it is a reasonable assumption based on reports that he took less but we will probably never know the facts. We also cannot really judge the result until Pokka develops - he may end up with a better career than Reinhardt, Mayfield or Pulock. Also, what happens with Nillsen. If he signs and plays well it changes the return in a major way. |
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John Jaeckel
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Location: www.the-rink.com Joined: 11.19.2006
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Rick: How dare he hasn't made a move yet. Just a complete dropping of the ball, and par for the course with this scalawag Bowman. Unacceptable! OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!! - CaptainBlackhawk
But why can't it be said that he tried, didn't get anything to work, not a great day, because logic suggests time is not his side?
I know, we can say there's no proof he didn't try. OK, and I have a bridge I want to sell you.
What would be WORSE is if people were saying he didn't try. I give him credit for trying. Just like I do Vermette and even TRYING on Timonen. The judgment was just not so great. |
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John Jaeckel
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Location: www.the-rink.com Joined: 11.19.2006
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You missed the point completely! As I said, there are things that can obviously be criticized, yes like Rundblad, but many of the criticisms being levelled at Bowman are speculatory in nature .... like if he could have received a better return for Leddy. - paulr
1) Do you really think there were no earlier offers for Leddy?
2) That Bowman's bargaining position did not deteriorate as the season drew closer?
Both are sort of common sense questions. The second is sort of just, I don't know, the obvious.
I am not here to condemn Bowman, nor to defend everything he's done because "no one can prove" he's at fault for anything. |
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John Jaeckel
Chicago Blackhawks |
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Location: www.the-rink.com Joined: 11.19.2006
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I guess I was wrong: we can't criticize Stan - we must trust without questioning, because - well - we don't know.
Lots of people saying so.
I'll have to remember that. - StLBravesFan
Exactly. I'm starting to get this "Sage" thing! |
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