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Forums :: Ottawa Senators :: Sens measure up poorly within Division, but NOT in Province
Author Message
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Apr 13 @ 4:57 PM ET
Its marginal with absolutely no improvments in terms of results at the NHL level.
- Cape Breton Bruins



then I think you're out to lunch.
Cape Breton Bruins
Boston Bruins
Location: Friends with a GREAT MAN, AB
Joined: 11.26.2008

Apr 13 @ 5:00 PM ET
Which roster would you prefer?

http://www.hockeydb.com/i...ons/teams/0000322004.html

http://www.hockeydb.com/i...ons/teams/0000322007.html

How bout these two?

http://www.hockeydb.com/i...ons/teams/0000412003.html

http://www.hockeydb.com/i...ons/teams/0000412011.html

- prock

The thing I like about Chiarelli after his first season with the Bruins is that he could read what was wrong with the sqaud and poopcanned the coach bringing in Julien who in turn got a similar roster into the playoffs the next year and every year since including a Stanley Cup Championship.

My point was Burke couldn't take the temperature of his squad and couldn't admit to himself that he screwed the pooch from jump street by dealing 1st round picks and stating the team didnt require a five year rebuild. Instead he insisted on preforming offseason after offseason of minor tweaks that didn't amount to anything as far as advancing the team to the playoffs while dragging his feet on the whole ron Wilson issue because why? They are friends?

To me his ego has gotten in the way of the development of the franchise. He has made a few improvements here or there but overall, after three years the team remains in neutral.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Apr 13 @ 5:05 PM ET
The thing I like about Chiarelli after his first season with the Bruins is that he could read what was wrong with the sqaud and poopcanned the coach bringing in Julien who in turn got a similar roster into the playoffs the next year and every year since including a Stanley Cup Championship.

My point was Burke couldn't take the temperature of his squad and couldn't admit to himself that he screwed the pooch from jump street by dealing 1st round picks and stating the team didnt require a five year rebuild. Instead he insisted on preforming offseason after offseason of minor tweaks that didn't amount to anything as far as advancing the team to the playoffs while dragging his feet on the whole ron Wilson issue because why? They are friends?

To me his ego has gotten in the way of the development of the franchise. He has made a few improvements here or there but overall, after three years the team remains in neutral.

- Cape Breton Bruins


The Ron Wilson thing, probably true.

But I'm totally puzzled by claiming he's done nothing but minor tweaks.
Cape Breton Bruins
Boston Bruins
Location: Friends with a GREAT MAN, AB
Joined: 11.26.2008

Apr 13 @ 5:08 PM ET
The Ron Wilson thing, probably true.

But I'm totally puzzled by claiming he's done nothing but minor tweaks.

- prock

He's made a lot of changes. Tweaks might be the wrong term, but so far they have all proven to be lateral. As I mentioned prior, he still has time to take the team to the next level which would be a playoff birth but my assessment to date is that he hasn't exactly gotten the job done.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Apr 13 @ 5:34 PM ET
He's made a lot of changes. Tweaks might be the wrong term, but so far they have all proven to be lateral. As I mentioned prior, he still has time to take the team to the next level which would be a playoff birth but my assessment to date is that he hasn't exactly gotten the job done.
- Cape Breton Bruins



What is the job?

Not trying to be a dyck, but I'm saying it's not an easy thing to measure success on.
Cape Breton Bruins
Boston Bruins
Location: Friends with a GREAT MAN, AB
Joined: 11.26.2008

Apr 13 @ 5:40 PM ET
What is the job?

Not trying to be a dyck, but I'm saying it's not an easy thing to measure success on.

- prock

The Job? Well its starts by taking your team to the playoffs or improving them to a level of being consistantly competitive. And Ultimately it's winning the Stanley Cup.

How much longer would you give Burke if the Leafs continue to miss the playoffs year after year?
SUPERDOMINO
Season Ticket Holder
Montreal Canadiens
Location: seriously friend, wtf?
Joined: 11.28.2007

Apr 13 @ 10:34 PM ET
Nearly the entire organization has been revamped. Would I like the results in the standings to come faster? Of course. But the state of the Leafs is considerably better now than it was.
- prock

WTF? Weren't they worse than last year? Do you really think they will make it next year? That's progress? Does it really matter that you have new prospects and the youngest team if you still can't make the top eight? The roster has been revamped ha ha. Leafs used to suck. Leafs still suck. Burkie is awesome. For the love of God give your head a shake.
annoyance_101
Vancouver Canucks
Location: I am not a troll, I am not a t
Joined: 07.16.2006

Apr 13 @ 11:28 PM ET
Hence the reason he didn't get the $6m long term contract. Hellllooooo.
- prock


You're the one that brought up Connolly for literally no other reason than to deflect your stupidity about who did better Heatley or Spezza after I proved you wrong...
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Apr 14 @ 10:17 AM ET
The Job? Well its starts by taking your team to the playoffs or improving them to a level of being consistantly competitive. And Ultimately it's winning the Stanley Cup.

How much longer would you give Burke if the Leafs continue to miss the playoffs year after year?

- Cape Breton Bruins


Given the state of the team when he took over, full of overpaid, old veterans nearing retirement, no prospects or decent young players, lots of ntcs, I'd say that despite the sound bytes that you like to try to exaggerate, 3 years (more importantly, offseasons) and a half year with a team he was handed, isn't exactly a long time. What do you feel it should take to completely rebuild an organization from top to bottom? Do you think it can be done in one or two summers? Do you think that's what fans of all teams shiuld expect?
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Apr 14 @ 10:23 AM ET
WTF? Weren't they worse than last year? Do you really think they will make it next year? That's progress? Does it really matter that you have new prospects and the youngest team if you still can't make the top eight? The roster has been revamped ha ha. Leafs used to suck. Leafs still suck. Burkie is awesome. For the love of God give your head a shake.
- SUPERDOMINO


I would think that, as a fan of a team that had a goalie take your team through a couple of rounds of the playoffs unexpectedly, and part of a fanbase that considered themselves contenders, you'd might be in a good position to understand that the standings don't fully reflect the overall health of a franchise.

I mean, surely you now recognize that despite going on a cinderella run two years ago, and the proclamations that the Habs were the REAL runner up team to the cup last year, because it took the Bruins 7 games to beat them, the Habs were a big mess, right?

Or is this something you're still in the dark about?
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Apr 14 @ 10:32 AM ET
You're the one that brought up Connolly for literally no other reason than to deflect your stupidity about who did better Heatley or Spezza after I proved you wrong...
- annoyance_101


For no reason? The statement was made that Spezza has been better since Heatley left, yet heatley outscored him the first two years. The excuse was made that spezza missed games.

In one of YOUR posts, you said Connolly scoring at those rates WHEN HEALTHY is useless because he rarely is. Just like Connolly, the rate he scores at over 82 games doesn't mean much, because he very rarely plays 82 games. Same as Connolly, just to a lesser degree. Spezza misses 15 to 20 games almost every year. So its irrelevant what he would have scored over 82 games.
Cape Breton Bruins
Boston Bruins
Location: Friends with a GREAT MAN, AB
Joined: 11.26.2008

Apr 14 @ 11:01 AM ET
Given the state of the team when he took over, full of overpaid, old veterans nearing retirement, no prospects or decent young players, lots of ntcs, I'd say that despite the sound bytes that you like to try to exaggerate, 3 years (more importantly, offseasons) and a half year with a team he was handed, isn't exactly a long time. What do you feel it should take to completely rebuild an organization from top to bottom? Do you think it can be done in one or two summers? Do you think that's what fans of all teams shiuld expect?
- prock

That can take up to five years if handled correctly. My point was that the team, with its current roster that Burke has constructed hasn't moved forward in term of results at the NHL level. That much is obvious. Everything has been sideways, they trade two first round picks for Kessel(Who is in his own right, is a gifted offensive player) because Burke believed that the team was close to being consistantly competitive that is obviously not the case.

Tell me something, is a core of players that revolves around Phil Kessel, Dion Phaneuf and Grabovski one that will contend for a Stanley Cup during Burke's tenure with the Leafs?
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Apr 14 @ 11:27 AM ET
do you really believe that?

Look at this f*&king roster.

http://www.hockeydb.com/i...ons/teams/0000382009.html

I believe the Leafs top prospect in those days was Robbie Earl? Or Dale Mitchell?

- prock


You're right, that roster left a lot to be desired. However the players on that 2008/09 roster who are currently playing in this years playoffs are..........

Alexei Ponikarovsky
Dominic Moore
Pavel Kubina
John Mitchell
Ian White
Jamal Mayers
Anton Stralman
Alexander Steen
Carlo Colaiacovo

As an outside viewer, I would say that perhaps only two or three at the most, would be wanted back, if possible, by most leaf fans.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Apr 14 @ 11:41 AM ET
You're right, that roster left a lot to be desired. However the players on that 2008/09 roster who are currently playing in this years playoffs are..........

Alexei Ponikarovsky
Dominic Moore
Pavel Kubina
John Mitchell
Ian White
Jamal Mayers
Anton Stralman
Alexander Steen
Carlo Colaiacovo

As an outside viewer, I would say that perhaps only two or three at the most, would be wanted back, if possible, by most leaf fans.

- Doppleganger


And a fair number of those guys were key players for the Leafs. Are ANY of them playing key roles for their team? Are ANY of them first liners, like Kubina, Poni, Steen were for the Leafs?

Simply playing for a playoff team doesn't automatically make a player better. There are lots of terrible players playing bit roles for good teams.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Apr 14 @ 11:45 AM ET
And a fair number of those guys were key players for the Leafs. Are ANY of them playing key roles for their team? Are ANY of them first liners, like Kubina, Poni, Steen were for the Leafs?

Simply playing for a playoff team doesn't automatically make a player better. There are lots of terrible players playing bit roles for good teams.

- prock



Dude, I was kinda agreeing with your assessment of the 2008 roster. I only suggested that there were only two or three players that leaf fans may want back, if possible.

Never suggested that any of them were first liners or anything.


annoyance_101
Vancouver Canucks
Location: I am not a troll, I am not a t
Joined: 07.16.2006

Apr 14 @ 1:19 PM ET
For no reason? The statement was made that Spezza has been better since Heatley left, yet heatley outscored him the first two years. The excuse was made that spezza missed games.

In one of YOUR posts, you said Connolly scoring at those rates WHEN HEALTHY is useless because he rarely is. Just like Connolly, the rate he scores at over 82 games doesn't mean much, because he very rarely plays 82 games. Same as Connolly, just to a lesser degree. Spezza misses 15 to 20 games almost every year. So its irrelevant what he would have scored over 82 games.

- prock


...but Tim Connolly played 70 games this year and only got 36 points...I fail to see the comparison to heatley or spezza in this case...before this all started I didn't bring up Connolly's name at all since last summer when the Leafs signed him...but now...i'm gonna tell you this...he's garbage and if thats your #1 centre, no damn wonder you're back in the bottom 5...dont compare him and Spezza...thats just stupid...even on a bad year Spezza is better...
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Apr 14 @ 1:50 PM ET
...but Tim Connolly played 70 games this year and only got 36 points...I fail to see the comparison to heatley or spezza in this case...before this all started I didn't bring up Connolly's name at all since last summer when the Leafs signed him...but now...i'm gonna tell you this...he's garbage and if thats your #1 centre, no damn wonder you're back in the bottom 5...dont compare him and Spezza...thats just stupid...even on a bad year Spezza is better...
- annoyance_101


A) he was playing on the third line as a defensive centre most of the year. Are you relly so clueless you didn't realize bozak was playing with Kessel all year?

B). I'm not surprised you can't follow, despite it partly being your own comments.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Apr 14 @ 1:53 PM ET
Dude, I was kinda agreeing with your assessment of the 2008 roster. I only suggested that there were only two or three players that leaf fans may want back, if possible.

Never suggested that any of them were first liners or anything.

- Doppleganger


It was an abomination of a roster. The rest of the organization was equally bad. He was starting from scratch. In fact, worse than scratch, because he had liability players and contracts to get rid of somehow.

Look at the Habs now. Is that mess going to be sorted in three years? Look how long its taking the oilers. You can say that because of the things he's said, its his own fault, but I don't think its reasonable that the mess left behind be sorted by now.
Cape Breton Bruins
Boston Bruins
Location: Friends with a GREAT MAN, AB
Joined: 11.26.2008

Apr 14 @ 2:00 PM ET
It was an abomination of a roster. The rest of the organization was equally bad. He was starting from scratch. In fact, worse than scratch, because he had liability players and contracts to get rid of somehow.

Look at the Habs now. Is that mess going to be sorted in three years? Look how long its taking the oilers. You can say that because of the things he's said, its his own fault, but I don't think its reasonable that the mess left behind be sorted by now.

- prock


Then why is he on record saying he didn't want a 5 year rebuild?
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Apr 14 @ 2:18 PM ET
Then why is he on record saying he didn't want a 5 year rebuild?
- Cape Breton Bruins


The majority of torontonians wouldn't take it well had he said otherwise.

He probably also thought he could accomplish it faster. But just because he HASN'T accomplished it faster, does that negate how much he HAS accomplished?

And I know you're saying 4 years. I don't really consider it that. He took aver the team 20 or so games into the season. He got everything in place, and finally started to make the changes he wanted 60 games into the season. I personally consider this his season the third year its been his teams. That's not a long time to be rebuilding a team. And I think its a lotter better than what was there.
Cape Breton Bruins
Boston Bruins
Location: Friends with a GREAT MAN, AB
Joined: 11.26.2008

Apr 14 @ 2:44 PM ET
The majority of torontonians wouldn't take it well had he said otherwise.
He probably also thought he could accomplish it faster. But just because he HASN'T accomplished it faster, does that negate how much he HAS accomplished?

And I know you're saying 4 years. I don't really consider it that. He took aver the team 20 or so games into the season. He got everything in place, and finally started to make the changes he wanted 60 games into the season. I personally consider this his season the third year its been his teams. That's not a long time to be rebuilding a team. And I think its a lotter better than what was there.

- prock

So in your opinion he lied about his opinion of the team because why? Wouldn't most fans understand the state of the team and then would take a look around the league to teams who have had successful rebuilds and notice that it takes a few years? You're saying Leafs fans are too dumb or impatient to realize this on their own?

I thought he was a cowboy who didn't care about the media or didn't let outside noise make decisions for him?

Most teams have taken on the rebuild with the expeption of a few and have made tangible gains in the standings throughput the rebuild. From bottom feeder....to just missing a playoff spot.....to finallly making it as a 7th or 8th seed, to winning the division and finally making a meaningful playoff run beyond the first round.

The Leafs remain a consistant 10th to 13th place team in the east. And FYI I never said he had the rains for 4 seasons, but he has had three entire offseasons, this being his 4th as GM of the team. One would think, next year is a make or break season for the Burke regime.
Shutdown
Carolina Hurricanes
Location: ;ets jist see, NC
Joined: 04.06.2008

Apr 14 @ 3:36 PM ET
So in your opinion he lied about his opinion of the team because why? Wouldn't most fans understand the state of the team and then would take a look around the league to teams who have had successful rebuilds and notice that it takes a few years? You're saying Leafs fans are too dumb or impatient to realize this on their own?

I thought he was a cowboy who didn't care about the media or didn't let outside noise make decisions for him?

Most teams have taken on the rebuild with the expeption of a few and have made tangible gains in the standings throughput the rebuild. From bottom feeder....to just missing a playoff spot.....to finallly making it as a 7th or 8th seed, to winning the division and finally making a meaningful playoff run beyond the first round.

The Leafs remain a consistant 10th to 13th place team in the east. And FYI I never said he had the rains for 4 seasons, but he has had three entire offseasons, this being his 4th as GM of the team. One would think, next year is a make or break season for the Burke regime.

- Cape Breton Bruins

*reins
Cape Breton Bruins
Boston Bruins
Location: Friends with a GREAT MAN, AB
Joined: 11.26.2008

Apr 14 @ 4:04 PM ET
*reins
- Shutdown

TEA IN A CAN
annoyance_101
Vancouver Canucks
Location: I am not a troll, I am not a t
Joined: 07.16.2006

Apr 14 @ 9:13 PM ET
A) he was playing on the third line as a defensive centre most of the year. Are you relly so clueless you didn't realize bozak was playing with Kessel all year?

B). I'm not surprised you can't follow, despite it partly being your own comments.

- prock


So, you have on your own, brought up Connolly, a 3rd liner and compared him to Spezza...yes and i'm the clueless one
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Apr 14 @ 9:44 PM ET
So, you have on your own, brought up Connolly, a 3rd liner and compared him to Spezza...yes and i'm the clueless one
- annoyance_101


Yep.
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