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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
Author Message
bixll
Location: New Glasgow, NS
Joined: 09.04.2008

Sep 22 @ 10:28 AM ET
Much more so. In the Hossa case they appear to have created a disease (skin disease) as the basis of their moving him to LTIR. They would not be able to retire him because he was plus 35 when he signed his contract so he remains on the cap.

Lupul is an oft injured player who just stayed on LTIR. Nobody doubts he is fragile and often injured. The only question is if he is "fit" now. The fact he says he plans on resuming his career once his contract expires is problematic.

But the Hawks created a disability of acne.

- spatso



Lupul would only be fit for 6 friggin days if he came back anyway.. Lost the remainder of the year to Hang-nail issues.
Tumbleweed
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: everyday i see my dream
Joined: 03.14.2014

Sep 22 @ 10:40 AM ET
Sometimes you have interesting things to say. But, it is harder to find the good stuff that you write when you wrap it all in a heavy blanket of silly name calling.
- spatso


If you are trying to get into my pants with compliments, then you going to have to try harder.
winsix
Season Ticket Holder
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: The Hawks rent out Hossa's jock to teams with a cap problem
Joined: 04.03.2016

Sep 22 @ 10:46 AM ET
It is pure speculation on my part that this is being driven by the Hossa fiasco.

The Hawks announced that Hossa was going to retire due to medical reasons (skin disorder). Several western teams formally complained to the NHL that the Hawks were manipulating the cap restrictions by using an LTIR option to move a salary off the cap. It does not matter if the insurance makes good on the payment. Indeed, if the team does not make a claim on the fund it becomes even more questionable.

So, when Lupul goes public saying "they all cheat" and he is okay to play heads are exploding in NHL headquarters. Lupul goes on to say he looks forward to resuming his career once his contract with the Leafs expires.


If your a hockey fan it is all entirely confusing. If you have worked even on one disability insurance claim you understand why the defensive reaction of the Leafs has been so strong.

As I said this will get resolved quietly. But, it is going to change how it works going forward.

- spatso


I know its really hard for you to check facts before spewing out nonsense but consider the following. The Hossa situation is not remotely comparable to Lupul's. Hossa signed a 12 year cap-circumventing contract that pays only $1 million a year for the remaining four years. He is not retiring as you say, because if he retired, the entire remaining $21+ million in cap hit would be realized by the Hawks. His career ending diaper rash/jock itch injury is laughable. Lupul on the other hand signed a 5 year legitimate contract - and the entire amount has counted against the Leafs cap to date. He has never played a complete NHL season for the Leafs. The remaining amount for this season is the only amount which can be scrutinized. There is little chance of Lupul passing any independent physical.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Sep 22 @ 10:50 AM ET
Lupul would only be fit for 6 friggin days if he came back anyway.. Lost the remainder of the year to Hang-nail issues.
- bixll


I believe the problem has more to do with the need to be cap compliant for the opening of the season.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Sep 22 @ 10:53 AM ET
Absolutely.

This loophole basically defeats the purpose of the cap in the first place by allowing teams to pay cash to shift cap hits... which means teams aren't actually paying similar amounts for talent on the ice.

- Aetherial

The thing with this loophole is it's not too easy to exploit. With the Horton situation, it worked out because he was a huge, uninsurable contract. It wouldn't be the same for any LTIR player.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Sep 22 @ 10:55 AM ET
I know its really hard for you to check facts before spewing out nonsense but consider the following. The Hossa situation is not remotely comparable to Lupul's. Hossa signed a 12 year cap-circumventing contract that pays only $1 million a year for the remaining four years. He is not retiring as you say, because if he retired, the entire remaining $21+ million in cap hit would be realized by the Hawks. His career ending diaper rash/jock itch injury is laughable. Lupul on the other hand signed a 5 year legitimate contract - and the entire amount has counted against the Leafs cap to date. He has never played a complete NHL season for the Leafs. The remaining amount for this season is the only amount which can be scrutinized. There is little chance of Lupul passing any independent physical.
- winsix


I don't disagree. In fact, your not saying anything that I did not already say. Lupul in this situation is merely a flashpoint for an NHL office that is highly agitated over the Hossa affair. So, when Lupul said the league lets the Leafs cheat it correlated with what some of the western clubs are saying about the Hawks. The league had no way to avoid investigating an allegation of cheating.

The Lupul outcome is not important as it relates to his future play. It is important in shutting down loop holes. The Leafs will be hurt by the cheating allegation.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Sep 22 @ 10:57 AM ET
I don't disagree. In fact, your not saying anything that I did not already say. Lupul in this situation is merely a flashpoint for an NHL office that is highly agitated over the Hossa affair. So, when Lupul said the league lets the Leafs cheat it correlated with what some of the western clubs are saying about the Hawks. The league had no way to avoid investigating an allegation of cheating.

The Lupul outcome is not important as it relates to his future play. It is important in shutting down loop holes. The Leafs will be hurt by the cheating allegation.

- spatso

how?
D0PPELGANGER
Ottawa Senators
Location: Ottawa, ON
Joined: 05.06.2015

Sep 22 @ 11:01 AM ET
You mean like how Phaneuf is a valued member of the team?
- Aetherial



Does Phaneuf bring value to the team?
Yes.

Is his contract an issue, perhaps.

Ottawa has about 14 players who will becoming UFAs in the next two years, so there are decisions that will be made to accommodate the players they want to keep and let go.



D0PPELGANGER
Ottawa Senators
Location: Ottawa, ON
Joined: 05.06.2015

Sep 22 @ 11:03 AM ET
I wonder, if the NHL doctor agrees with the Leafs' doctor, if this could just be grounds for the Leafs to release his contract.

I feel like openly calling management cheaters probably breaches some part of the contract, if it's shown to be false.

- Feeling Glucky?



you bring up a good point.

But this could open up another loop hole.
D0PPELGANGER
Ottawa Senators
Location: Ottawa, ON
Joined: 05.06.2015

Sep 22 @ 11:05 AM ET
Sometimes you have interesting things to say. But, it is harder to find the good stuff that you write when you wrap it all in a heavy blanket of silly name calling.
- spatso


Childish name calling is the last refuge of the witless.
Tumbleweed
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: everyday i see my dream
Joined: 03.14.2014

Sep 22 @ 11:13 AM ET
Childish name calling is the last refuge of the witless.
- D0PPELGANGER


When in doubt, post a tired cliche
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Sep 22 @ 11:14 AM ET
how?
- Feeling Glucky?


The allegation that the Hawks and Leafs have used the LTIR inappropriately to circumvent the salary cap has been made by a group of western teams (Hawks) and now a player (Leafs).

There is already robust evidence that Betman is at war with any attempts to circumvent the cap. I would expect that he is going to use the occasion to lock in some of the cap rules making it harder to adjust cap salaries through the LTIR. But the main loophole he wants to close is to make it virtually impossible to move a +35 contract off of the cap of the team that signed the player (Hossa, Marleau).
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Sep 22 @ 11:22 AM ET
The allegation that the Hawks and Leafs have used the LTIR inappropriately to circumvent the salary cap has been made by a group of western teams (Hawks) and now a player (Leafs).

There is already robust evidence that Betman is at war with any attempts to circumvent the cap. I would expect that he is going to use the occasion to lock in some of the cap rules making it harder to adjust cap salaries through the LTIR. But the main loophole he wants to close is to make it virtually impossible to move a +35 contract off of the cap of the team that signed the player (Hossa, Marleau).

- spatso


LTIR is LTIR. If a player is unfit to play, that's all there is to it.


Somehow I doubt they're going to make a drastic change that the union would disagree with when the CBA isn't up for renegotiation for another 5 years.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Sep 22 @ 11:23 AM ET
Does Phaneuf bring value to the team?
Yes.

Is his contract an issue, perhaps.

Ottawa has about 14 players who will becoming UFAs in the next two years, so there are decisions that will be made to accommodate the players they want to keep and let go.

- D0PPELGANGER


Phaneuf contract is not a problem. He is a good skater, physical player and still young by Dman standards. The Canadian $000 is robust and as a result teams are up substantially on their cash flow conversion to $US (upwards of 20% over last year).

More important we are going to see a heavy jump in the cap next year. Phaneuf only has three years left after this year. He played an amazing role for the Sens last year.

Right now the Leafs do not have a Dman as good as Phaneuf is today. Phaneuf is still a long way off from retirement. He will get at least one more good NHL contract.

Now, as you know, I have never been a fan of the Bobby Ryan deal.
Tumbleweed
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: everyday i see my dream
Joined: 03.14.2014

Sep 22 @ 11:28 AM ET
The allegation that the Hawks and Leafs have used the LTIR inappropriately to circumvent the salary cap has been made by a group of western teams (Hawks) and now a player (Leafs).

There is already robust evidence that Betman is at war with any attempts to circumvent the cap. I would expect that he is going to use the occasion to lock in some of the cap rules making it harder to adjust cap salaries through the LTIR. But the main loophole he wants to close is to make it virtually impossible to move a +35 contract off of the cap of the team that signed the player (Hossa, Marleau).

- spatso


What cap advantage are the leafs getting that they will lose?
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Sep 22 @ 11:29 AM ET
LTIR is LTIR. If a player is unfit to play, that's all there is to it.


Somehow I doubt they're going to make a drastic change that the union would disagree with when the CBA isn't up for renegotiation for another 5 years.

- Feeling Glucky?


Yes it has to be over an extended period of time. When a player is on LTIR he does not count as being on your roster. You can call up players from the minors. Sign new contracts.

Not sure, but I think on this one the NHL teams, the players and the PA are all opposed to what the Hawks have done. I think they would be less upset of Lupul. Lupul does seem to experience chronic injury events and his return does seem redundant. I think the Leafs just got caught up in another situation and the cheating allegation did them in.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Sep 22 @ 11:40 AM ET
What cap advantage are the leafs getting that they will lose?
- Tumbleweed


All the choices around Lupul, Robidas, Horton, Clarkson et. al., may not be possible.

Also, going to be almost impossible to bury the Marleau contract in the last year.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Sep 22 @ 11:50 AM ET
All the choices around Lupul, Robidas, Horton, Clarkson et. al., may not be possible.

Also, going to be almost impossible to bury the Marleau contract in the last year.

- spatso

You realize Clarkson is not with the team around anymore, right?

The NHL isn't going to get rid of LTIR because Lupul cried on an instagram comment.

Leafs, according to pundits, had many "unmoveable" contracts that have all been moved. Clarkson, Phaneuf, Blake, etc. Hell, many outside leafland thought Kessel was unmoveable.

A good veteran in the final year of his contract isn't going to be a problem to move, if they feel they need to. The Leafs have invested a lot in their front office and have the foremost experts in the CBA and cap. No need to worry.
BetterCallSaul
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Liljegren?
Joined: 05.07.2013

Sep 22 @ 12:03 PM ET
Much more so. In the Hossa case they appear to have created a disease (skin disease) as the basis of their moving him to LTIR. They would not be able to retire him because he was plus 35 when he signed his contract so he remains on the cap.

Lupul is an oft injured player who just stayed on LTIR. Nobody doubts he is fragile and often injured. The only question is if he is "fit" now. The fact he says he plans on resuming his career once his contract expires is problematic.

But the Hawks created a disability of acne.

- spatso

He was 30 when he signed in Chicago.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Sep 22 @ 12:05 PM ET
You realize Clarkson is not with the team around anymore, right?

The NHL isn't going to get rid of LTIR because Lupul cried on an instagram comment.

Leafs, according to pundits, had many "unmoveable" contracts that have all been moved. Clarkson, Phaneuf, Blake, etc. Hell, many outside leafland thought Kessel was unmoveable.

A good veteran in the final year of his contract isn't going to be a problem to move, if they feel they need to. The Leafs have invested a lot in their front office and have the foremost experts in the CBA and cap. No need to worry.

- Feeling Glucky?


I think you missed the point. All those deals that I referenced involved players that were on LTIR (e.g. Clarkson for Horton). There is not going to be any change in LTIR. There is going to be restrictions on how you move contracts of players on LTIR.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Sep 22 @ 12:06 PM ET
He was 30 when he signed in Chicago.
- BetterCallSaul


12 year deal that apparently enraged Bettman.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Sep 22 @ 12:29 PM ET
I think you missed the point. All those deals that I referenced involved players that were on LTIR (e.g. Clarkson for Horton). There is not going to be any change in LTIR. There is going to be restrictions on how you move contracts of players on LTIR.
- spatso

Robidas wasn't on LTIR when the deal was made, neither was Lupul. only the Horton/Clarkson one was.
bixll
Location: New Glasgow, NS
Joined: 09.04.2008

Sep 22 @ 12:30 PM ET
I believe the problem has more to do with the need to be cap compliant for the opening of the season.
- spatso



No cap issues in TO. Horton goes to the Island, he is in charge there now.. All good
systemtool
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Real men always have to poo, ON
Joined: 09.12.2007

Sep 22 @ 12:31 PM ET
I support NHL decision to appoint independent Doctor to examine Lupul.
- spatso


me too
bixll
Location: New Glasgow, NS
Joined: 09.04.2008

Sep 22 @ 12:33 PM ET
He was 30 when he signed in Chicago.
- BetterCallSaul


Hossa has 4 years remaining at 1 mill per, but a 5.25 cap hit.. Betman (frank)ed up.
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