Wanna blog? Start your own hockey blog with My HockeyBuzz. Register for free today!
 
Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
Author Message
Aetherial
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: degenerate gamblers like yourself usually end up getting the big payoff. just keep at it.
Joined: 06.30.2006

Sep 12 @ 9:24 AM ET
No I prefer jealousy as accuratey describing most Leaf fans feelings. So much of the animus that Leaf fans feels are rooted in nearly two full generation of losses and incompetence. Leaf fans seem to resent everyone else's success. We can already see the bitterness growing towards the young Oilers...certainly this is jealousy incubated in 50 years of failing.
- spatso


Psychological projection is a theory in psychology in which humans defend themselves against their own unconscious impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves while attributing them to others.

2 generations?

How about we reflect on some history within the most recent generation...

In 2000, the teams met for the first time in the playoffs, with the Maple Leafs (Northeast Division winners that year) dispatching the Senators in six games. Some Maple Leafs fans saw this as revenge, as Senators Marian Hossa had accidentally clipped the Maple Leafs' defencemen Bryan Berard in the eye on March 11, nearly ending the young players's season and almost his career.

The next season, they met again in the first round, as Ottawa entered the playoffs ranked 2nd in the East and the Maple Leafs 7th. While the Senators were expected to defeat the Maple Leafs, especially since they had swept the regular season series against them, the Leafs swept the series in a major upset. Ottawa did not score their first goal of the series until 16:51 of the third period in the third game.

In 2002, the teams met in the playoffs for the third straight year. The two teams were very evenly matched, and the Maple Leafs, despite missing several key players, managed to win the second-round series in the full seven games and advance to the conference finals.

Ottawa and Toronto matched up in the playoffs for the fourth time in five years in 2004. Alfredsson guaranteed a victory after the Leafs took game 5. He delivered on his promise in game 6, but the Sens turned in a lackluster performance in the series finale. As was the case each time prior, the Maple Leafs beat the Senators in the series.
Aetherial
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: degenerate gamblers like yourself usually end up getting the big payoff. just keep at it.
Joined: 06.30.2006

Sep 12 @ 9:26 AM ET
So if your team, or any other team, does not win the Cup after a season and playoffs are done ............... how do you, measure the success of your team compared to another?

Or is it just one team is the best (Cup winner) and all other teams are equal losers?

- D0PPELGANGER


The title of the thread and the nature of the debate is not difficult to follow.

Start a thread called "Who went further in the playoffs last year". Then go respond, and gloat, and I will congratulate you on winning the 28th overall pick and then we can close the thread.
bixll
Location: New Glasgow, NS
Joined: 09.04.2008

Sep 12 @ 9:27 AM ET
As of the 2016 census, the Greater Toronto Area has a population of 6,417,516, and has a census metropolitan area population of 5,928,040.
- D0PPELGANGER



Canada has a Population of 33,476,688 as well.. But Toronto has a population of 2.7 you can take into account Greater Toronto to make the numbers as big as you like..

I have seen 9.2 for great Toronto as well.
Aetherial
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: degenerate gamblers like yourself usually end up getting the big payoff. just keep at it.
Joined: 06.30.2006

Sep 12 @ 9:28 AM ET
I'm having a hard time visualizing that distance. Could you give it to me in terms of how many empty seats that would be lined up end to end please? Is it more or fewer than 1500?
- BlueBallz


D0PPELGANGER
Ottawa Senators
Location: Ottawa, ON
Joined: 05.06.2015

Sep 12 @ 9:29 AM ET
yes toronto does in fact have more fans, lots of which travel more than an hour to see games.

so arena distance is a non issue. lack of fans is an issue in ottawa.

- daeth



The major difference, is that in the GTA, and correct me if I'm wrong, the majority of fans use public transit to attend games at the ACC, as it's less expensive and more convenient, as the ACC is centrally located.

The CTC is located on western fringe of Ottawa, and it's more convenient to drive, as it's poorly served by public transit.

When the new Arena is built, and is centrally located and practically on the intersection of the two LRT lines.......... fans will use Public Transit not just for the convenience, but because there will be very little parking at the new Arena.
D0PPELGANGER
Ottawa Senators
Location: Ottawa, ON
Joined: 05.06.2015

Sep 12 @ 9:30 AM ET
Canada has a Population of 33,476,688 as well.. But Toronto has a population of 2.7 you can take into account Greater Toronto to make the numbers as big as you like..

I have seen 9.2 for great Toronto as well.

- bixll



Just going by the governments numbers.
Aetherial
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: degenerate gamblers like yourself usually end up getting the big payoff. just keep at it.
Joined: 06.30.2006

Sep 12 @ 9:30 AM ET
So how do you explain his plus 10 rating, his second overall in blocked shots among d men?
- D0PPELGANGER


did you really just bring up his + 10 after I showed pretty much all the top dmen, EXCEPT Karlsson being a career plus.

Thank you for validating the use of the stat and thus my argument.
bixll
Location: New Glasgow, NS
Joined: 09.04.2008

Sep 12 @ 9:30 AM ET
The major difference, is that in the GTA, and correct me if I'm wrong, the majority of fans use public transit to attend games at the ACC, as it's less expensive and more convenient, as the ACC is centrally located.

The CTC is located on western fringe of Ottawa, and it's more convenient to drive, as it's poorly served by public transit.

When the new Arena is built, and is centrally located and practically on the intersection of the two LRT lines.......... fans will use Public Transit not just for the convenience, but because there will be very little parking at the new Arena.

- D0PPELGANGER



I guess the team should just bee moved to a town where the fans will fully support the Team. Quebec is looking for a team...
bixll
Location: New Glasgow, NS
Joined: 09.04.2008

Sep 12 @ 9:31 AM ET
Just going by the governments numbers.
- D0PPELGANGER



No, you used Ottawas number, and great Toronto's numbers..
Aetherial
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: degenerate gamblers like yourself usually end up getting the big payoff. just keep at it.
Joined: 06.30.2006

Sep 12 @ 9:31 AM ET
The major difference, is that in the GTA, and correct me if I'm wrong, the majority of fans use public transit to attend games at the ACC, as it's less expensive and more convenient, as the ACC is centrally located.

The CTC is located on western fringe of Ottawa, and it's more convenient to drive, as it's poorly served by public transit.

When the new Arena is built, and is centrally located and practically on the intersection of the two LRT lines.......... fans will use Public Transit not just for the convenience, but because there will be very little parking at the new Arena.

- D0PPELGANGER


All true, although the Go train can get pretty pricey

D0PPELGANGER
Ottawa Senators
Location: Ottawa, ON
Joined: 05.06.2015

Sep 12 @ 9:33 AM ET
did you really just bring up his + 10 after I showed pretty much all the top dmen, EXCEPT Karlsson being a career minus.

Thank you for validating the use of the stat and thus my argument.

- Aetherial



So when I use the most recent stats (last season) they don't meet with your approval, so you resort to using career stats.

Which stats reflex more accurately on a player today?
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Sep 12 @ 9:38 AM ET
Psychological projection is a theory in psychology in which humans defend themselves against their own unconscious impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves while attributing them to others.

2 generations?

How about we reflect on some history within the most recent generation...

In 2000, the teams met for the first time in the playoffs, with the Maple Leafs (Northeast Division winners that year) dispatching the Senators in six games. Some Maple Leafs fans saw this as revenge, as Senators Marian Hossa had accidentally clipped the Maple Leafs' defencemen Bryan Berard in the eye on March 11, nearly ending the young players's season and almost his career.

The next season, they met again in the first round, as Ottawa entered the playoffs ranked 2nd in the East and the Maple Leafs 7th. While the Senators were expected to defeat the Maple Leafs, especially since they had swept the regular season series against them, the Leafs swept the series in a major upset. Ottawa did not score their first goal of the series until 16:51 of the third period in the third game.

In 2002, the teams met in the playoffs for the third straight year. The two teams were very evenly matched, and the Maple Leafs, despite missing several key players, managed to win the second-round series in the full seven games and advance to the conference finals.

Ottawa and Toronto matched up in the playoffs for the fourth time in five years in 2004. Alfredsson guaranteed a victory after the Leafs took game 5. He delivered on his promise in game 6, but the Sens turned in a lackluster performance in the series finale. As was the case each time prior, the Maple Leafs beat the Senators in the series.

- Aetherial


That is much better. Now your only having to back a decade and a half in order to feel some positive stuff. The great irony is listening to Leaf fans say we beat the Sens 15 years ago but it is inconsequential that the Sens went to the SC semi finals this past year. Perhaps you need to think about that.
D0PPELGANGER
Ottawa Senators
Location: Ottawa, ON
Joined: 05.06.2015

Sep 12 @ 9:39 AM ET
All true, although the Go train can get pretty pricey
- Aetherial



Parking at the CTC was $20 during the season, and $30 during the three rounds of the playoffs.

The games I attended, in the playoffs, I parked at the Hurleys in Kanata, and used their Shuttle (School) bus to and from the games.

Rather spend my money on a couple of beers, and some food at Hurleys, rather than parking ............ and spending 45 mins getting out of the parking lot.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Sep 12 @ 9:41 AM ET
did you really just bring up his + 10 after I showed pretty much all the top dmen, EXCEPT Karlsson being a career plus.

Thank you for validating the use of the stat and thus my argument.

- Aetherial


Here we have another hockey savant trying to convince himself and others that Karlsson is not a good hockey player and Dman. Do you not even feel a little embarrassed for being so far outside the ambit of common sense.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Sep 12 @ 9:49 AM ET
Some people in Sens management are really upset by the way the empty seats in the playoffs have been discussed. Overall the Sens attendance in the playoffs was outstanding. The problem was in one game where the team clearly dropped the ball in their advance sales and follow up program.

The reduction in nosebleed seats (a building that holds more than 22,000 for some events) makes a great deal of sense. But taking those tickets out of the presale market it increases demand of season packages.

They are not removing the seats. They are simply taking them off the market. But nothing prevents them from putting them back on the market for any event.
daeth
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: What year is this?, ON
Joined: 09.15.2005

Sep 12 @ 9:49 AM ET
remember when the devils had poor attendance due to location and how a new downtown location would solve all their problems?

yeah that worked. non existent fans just started poofing into existence and every game became a sellout! it was awesome.
Aetherial
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: degenerate gamblers like yourself usually end up getting the big payoff. just keep at it.
Joined: 06.30.2006

Sep 12 @ 9:56 AM ET
So when I use the most recent stats (last season) they don't meet with your approval, so you resort to using career stats.

Which stats reflex more accurately on a player today?

- D0PPELGANGER


You mean like how you cut off your recent history time frame, like right after the Leafs won 4 series in a row against the Sens?

The fact that Karlsson was a plus last year just shows how his career was actually worse than that before last year... thus justifying people's opinions that he is not a good defender.

I actually did him a favor by at least considering the entirety of his career and not hand-picking numbers that support my arguement.
Aetherial
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: degenerate gamblers like yourself usually end up getting the big payoff. just keep at it.
Joined: 06.30.2006

Sep 12 @ 9:59 AM ET
That is much better. Now your only having to back a decade and a half in order to feel some positive stuff. The great irony is listening to Leaf fans say we beat the Sens 15 years ago but it is inconsequential that the Sens went to the SC semi finals this past year. Perhaps you need to think about that.
- spatso


You are so triggered you don't understand the difference between generation and decade? YOU chose the 2-generation comment.

I have been talking a lot for the last 100 pages or so about the Sens glorious winning of the 28th pick... Oh, I think about it. It puts a smile on my face every day.
senstroll
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Sep 12 @ 10:01 AM ET
Not a half an hour during "rush hour".......... closer to an hour. If you lived here, you'd know that.

How long would it take to drive from the Scarborough Town Centre to the ACC at 5:30 after work?

- D0PPELGANGER



I do and I make that drive several days a week in Rush hour.
I work in the East end and drive past the CTC.

on the most extreme days its an hour (weather etc), but not most of the time. 30-40 for me to get to CTC from Blair rd
Aetherial
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: degenerate gamblers like yourself usually end up getting the big payoff. just keep at it.
Joined: 06.30.2006

Sep 12 @ 10:04 AM ET
Here we have another hockey savant trying to convince himself and others that Karlsson is not a good hockey player and Dman. Do you not even feel a little embarrassed for being so far outside the ambit of common sense.
- spatso


On the contrary, if you bothered to read, I have MANY times, even as far back as 3 years ago stated that I thought Karlsson was the best dman in the league. I have also stated that if I had a player to start a franchise with, it would be him.

We were challenged to show stats to support the idea that he is not a good defender. Then we were chirped when we didn't respond within the hour, on a weekend.

So, when I saw it, I picked all the top defenders I could think of. I looked at one stat, career +/-. I don't really know a quicker way to answer the question and Corsi is a pile of poop. I have no idea if his corsi is even good or not?

The results were crystal clear. Karlsson was the ONLY minus out of my whole list.

I did exactly what D'Ooops challenged us to do and it ended up triggering you guys.

Aetherial
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: degenerate gamblers like yourself usually end up getting the big payoff. just keep at it.
Joined: 06.30.2006

Sep 12 @ 10:06 AM ET
Here we have another hockey savant trying to convince himself and others that Karlsson is not a good hockey player and Dman. Do you not even feel a little embarrassed for being so far outside the ambit of common sense.
- spatso


Explain this.

How is picking a stat and comparing players on that stat not common sense.

You may not like the stat. I suspect you hate the stats, until last year. That has nothing to do with common sense. It is just a number.

Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Sep 12 @ 10:30 AM ET
remember when the devils had poor attendance due to location and how a new downtown location would solve all their problems?

yeah that worked. non existent fans just started poofing into existence and every game became a sellout! it was awesome.

- daeth

Yea, but did they shrink their new building to host only 15k?
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Sep 12 @ 10:31 AM ET
I do and I make that drive several days a week in Rush hour.
I work in the East end and drive past the CTC.

on the most extreme days its an hour (weather etc), but not most of the time. 30-40 for me to get to CTC from Blair rd

- senstroll

Wait... you're telling me he was talking out of his ass?

DOPPS?

Well I never.
senstroll
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Sep 12 @ 10:41 AM ET
Wait... you're telling me he was talking out of his ass?

DOPPS?

Well I never.

- Feeling Glucky?


some yes

It used to be a problem before they expanded the highway from bayshore out..especially on game days.. but not so much anymore.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Sep 12 @ 10:43 AM ET
You mean like how you cut off your recent history time frame, like right after the Leafs won 4 series in a row against the Sens?

The fact that Karlsson was a plus last year just shows how his career was actually worse than that before last year... thus justifying people's opinions that he is not a good defender.

I actually did him a favor by at least considering the entirety of his career and not hand-picking numbers that support my arguement.

- Aetherial


You understand that people are now writing columns about Karlsson deniars. There are not many left. Most of them seem to reside in the GTA.

Most recent column I read said there are three dominant talents in the NHL, Crosby, McDavid and Karlsson. Deal with it.
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, 200, 201, 202, 203, 204, 205, 206, 207, 208, 209, 210, 211, 212, 213, 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220, 221, 222, 223, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 229, 230, 231, 232, 233, 234, 235, 236, 237, 238, 239, 240, 241, 242, 243, 244, 245, 246, 247, 248, 249, 250, 251, 252, 253, 254, 255, 256, 257, 258, 259, 260, 261, 262, 263, 264, 265, 266, 267, 268, 269, 270, 271, 272, 273, 274, 275, 276, 277, 278, 279, 280, 281, 282, 283, 284, 285, 286, 287, 288, 289, 290, 291, 292, 293, 294, 295, 296, 297, 298, 299, 300, 301, 302, 303, 304, 305, 306, 307, 308, 309, 310, 311, 312, 313, 314, 315, 316, 317, 318, 319, 320, 321, 322, 323, 324, 325, 326, 327, 328, 329, 330, 331, 332, 333, 334, 335, 336, 337, 338, 339, 340, 341, 342, 343, 344, 345, 346, 347, 348, 349, 350, 351, 352, 353, 354, 355, 356, 357, 358, 359, 360, 361, 362, 363, 364, 365, 366, 367, 368, 369, 370, 371, 372, 373, 374, 375, 376, 377, 378, 379, 380, 381, 382, 383, 384, 385, 386, 387, 388, 389, 390, 391, 392, 393, 394, 395, 396, 397, 398, 399, 400, 401, 402, 403, 404, 405, 406, 407, 408, 409, 410, 411, 412, 413, 414, 415, 416, 417, 418, 419, 420, 421, 422, 423, 424, 425, 426, 427, 428, 429, 430, 431, 432, 433, 434, 435, 436, 437, 438, 439, 440, 441, 442, 443, 444, 445, 446, 447, 448, 449, 450, 451, 452, 453, 454, 455, 456, 457, 458, 459, 460, 461, 462, 463, 464, 465, 466, 467, 468, 469, 470, 471, 472, 473, 474, 475, 476, 477, 478, 479, 480, 481, 482, 483, 484, 485, 486, 487, 488, 489, 490, 491, 492, 493, 494, 495, 496, 497, 498, 499, 500, 501, 502, 503, 504, 505, 506, 507, 508, 509, 510, 511, 512, 513, 514, 515, 516, 517, 518, 519, 520, 521, 522, 523, 524, 525, 526, 527, 528, 529, 530, 531, 532, 533, 534, 535, 536, 537, 538, 539, 540, 541, 542, 543, 544, 545, 546, 547, 548, 549, 550, 551, 552, 553, 554, 555, 556, 557, 558, 559, 560, 561, 562, 563, 564, 565, 566, 567, 568, 569, 570, 571, 572, 573, 574, 575, 576, 577, 578, 579, 580, 581, 582, 583, 584, 585, 586, 587, 588, 589, 590, 591, 592, 593, 594, 595, 596, 597, 598, 599, 600, 601, 602, 603, 604, 605, 606, 607, 608, 609, 610, 611, 612, 613, 614, 615, 616, 617, 618, 619, 620, 621, 622, 623, 624, 625, 626, 627, 628, 629, 630, 631, 632, 633, 634, 635, 636, 637, 638, 639, 640, 641, 642, 643, 644, 645, 646, 647, 648, 649, 650, 651, 652, 653, 654, 655, 656, 657, 658, 659, 660, 661, 662, 663, 664, 665, 666, 667, 668, 669, 670, 671, 672, 673, 674, 675, 676, 677, 678, 679, 680, 681, 682, 683, 684, 685, 686, 687, 688, 689, 690, 691, 692, 693, 694, 695, 696, 697, 698, 699, 700, 701, 702, 703, 704, 705, 706, 707, 708, 709, 710, 711, 712, 713, 714, 715, 716, 717, 718, 719, 720, 721, 722, 723, 724, 725, 726, 727, 728, 729, 730, 731, 732, 733, 734, 735, 736, 737, 738, 739, 740, 741, 742, 743, 744, 745, 746, 747, 748, 749, 750, 751, 752, 753, 754, 755, 756, 757, 758, 759, 760, 761, 762, 763, 764, 765, 766, 767, 768, 769, 770, 771, 772, 773, 774, 775, 776, 777, 778, 779, 780, 781, 782, 783, 784, 785, 786, 787, 788, 789, 790, 791, 792, 793, 794, 795, 796, 797, 798, 799, 800, 801, 802, 803, 804, 805, 806, 807, 808, 809, 810, 811, 812, 813, 814, 815, 816, 817, 818, 819, 820, 821, 822, 823, 824, 825, 826, 827, 828, 829, 830, 831, 832, 833, 834, 835, 836, 837, 838, 839, 840, 841, 842, 843, 844, 845, 846, 847, 848, 849, 850, 851, 852, 853, 854, 855, 856, 857, 858, 859, 860, 861, 862, 863, 864, 865, 866, 867, 868, 869, 870, 871, 872, 873, 874, 875, 876, 877, 878, 879, 880, 881, 882, 883, 884, 885, 886, 887, 888, 889, 890, 891, 892, 893, 894, 895, 896, 897, 898, 899, 900, 901, 902, 903, 904, 905, 906, 907, 908, 909, 910, 911, 912, 913, 914, 915, 916, 917, 918, 919, 920, 921, 922, 923, 924, 925, 926, 927, 928, 929, 930, 931, 932, 933, 934, 935, 936, 937, 938, 939, 940, 941, 942, 943, 944, 945, 946, 947, 948, 949, 950, 951, 952, 953, 954, 955, 956, 957, 958, 959, 960, 961, 962, 963, 964, 965, 966, 967, 968, 969, 970, 971, 972, 973, 974, 975, 976, 977, 978, 979, 980, 981, 982, 983, 984, 985, 986, 987, 988, 989, 990, 991, 992, 993, 994, 995, 996, 997, 998, 999, 1000, 1001, 1002, 1003, 1004, 1005, 1006, 1007, 1008, 1009, 1010, 1011, 1012, 1013, 1014, 1015, 1016, 1017, 1018, 1019, 1020, 1021, 1022, 1023, 1024, 1025, 1026, 1027, 1028, 1029, 1030, 1031, 1032, 1033, 1034, 1035, 1036, 1037, 1038, 1039, 1040, 1041, 1042, 1043, 1044, 1045, 1046, 1047, 1048, 1049, 1050, 1051, 1052, 1053, 1054, 1055, 1056, 1057, 1058, 1059, 1060, 1061, 1062, 1063, 1064, 1065, 1066, 1067, 1068, 1069, 1070, 1071, 1072, 1073, 1074, 1075, 1076, 1077, 1078, 1079, 1080, 1081, 1082, 1083, 1084, 1085, 1086, 1087, 1088, 1089, 1090, 1091, 1092, 1093, 1094, 1095, 1096, 1097, 1098, 1099, 1100, 1101, 1102, 1103, 1104, 1105, 1106, 1107, 1108, 1109, 1110, 1111, 1112, 1113, 1114, 1115, 1116, 1117, 1118, 1119, 1120, 1121, 1122, 1123, 1124, 1125, 1126, 1127, 1128, 1129, 1130, 1131, 1132, 1133, 1134, 1135, 1136, 1137, 1138, 1139, 1140, 1141, 1142, 1143, 1144, 1145, 1146, 1147, 1148, 1149, 1150, 1151, 1152, 1153, 1154, 1155, 1156, 1157, 1158, 1159, 1160  Next