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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
Author Message
Nastradamus
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Word., ON
Joined: 03.09.2009

Apr 9 @ 6:18 PM ET
Fair but that just means the price would be a little higher. Saying it's impossible is ignorant, especially when Burke is the one trying to pull it off.
- scotty


True, it's not impossible, just hard

scotty
Vancouver Canucks
Location: Calgary, AB
Joined: 06.27.2006

Apr 9 @ 6:23 PM ET
quite surprised to see a Nuck fan making these kind of statements about Burke
- S Kaspar Rollins

Why? Burke is an amazing GM. Anyone who says he ruined the Canucks is a joke. Burke brought is some of our greatest season point totals ever. He put together the West Coast Express and the two guys who are leading our team in points right now? Ya, Burke gottem. Sure our goaltending was suspect and his draft record wasn't great outside the Sedins, but what can you do? Not everything will be perfect. Detroits goaltending is brutal but you don't see people calling Holland a terrible GM, and drafting outside of the top 10 has been and likely will be forever a crap shoot. Also, to those who say he left us with a brutal team, well what the hell do you want? You can't stay competitive and take a run at the cup, it just isn't feasable. The only way it's possible is to completely luck out with late round picks like Detroit did. Without those ridiculous Datsyuk and Zetterberg picks the Wings would be roughin it up with the worst of the Western teams. Hey let's not forget Burke just recently won a STANLEY CUP in Anaheim. Say what you want about him but the man is a consistent winner and in my mind has yet to fail as a GM.
S Kaspar Rollins
Calgary Flames
Location: Calgary, AB
Joined: 06.22.2007

Apr 9 @ 6:26 PM ET
Why? Burke is an amazing GM. Anyone who says he ruined the Canucks is a joke. Burke brought is some of our greatest season point totals ever. He put together the West Coast Express and the two guys who are leading our team in points right now? Ya, Burke gottem. Sure our goaltending was suspect and his draft record wasn't great outside the Sedins, but what can you do? Not everything will be perfect. Detroits goaltending is brutal but you don't see people calling Holland a terrible GM, and drafting outside of the top 10 has been and likely will be forever a crap shoot. Also, to those who say he left us with a brutal team, well what the hell do you want? You can't stay competitive and take a run at the cup, it just isn't feasable. The only way it's possible is to completely luck out with late round picks like Detroit did. Without those ridiculous Datsyuk and Zetterberg picks the Wings would be roughin it up with the worst of the Western teams. Hey let's not forget Burke just recently won a STANLEY CUP in Anaheim. Say what you want about him but the man is a consistent winner and in my mind has yet to fail as a GM.
- scotty


zzzzz
brewstir
Edmonton Oilers
Location: Brandon, MB
Joined: 06.25.2007

Apr 11 @ 9:07 AM ET
Different case, and that was a HORRRIBLE draft, vs this very good draft
- Nastradamus


It was also pre-cap era when teams could spend what ever they wanted on UFA's.

Now teams are having to rely on good talent and get production out of there young guys to win games before they can demand the big bucks.

not impossible, but also not likely.

Burke will not be trading Kabby away.
Nastradamus
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Word., ON
Joined: 03.09.2009

Apr 11 @ 12:35 PM ET

Burke will not be trading Kabby away.

- brewstir


Disagree.

Kaberle has made mistake after mistake in his own end, with no one to fix them for him... I'm positive Burke's noticed that.

I honestly think Kubina will be a Leaf far longer than Kaberle will. (Meaning I'd be willing to give Kubina an extension).

RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Apr 11 @ 3:13 PM ET
Kaberle doesn't have the talent around him he once did. I'll give him a pass this year as I think he needs to have a change of scenery.

Kubina I like a lot. He's been really good for the Leafs the past 2 years.

That said, both could be gone this summer. Probably Kaberle more likely.
Nastradamus
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Word., ON
Joined: 03.09.2009

Apr 11 @ 4:54 PM ET
Kaberle doesn't have the talent around him he once did. I'll give him a pass this year as I think he needs to have a change of scenery.

Kubina I like a lot. He's been really good for the Leafs the past 2 years.

That said, both could be gone this summer. Probably Kaberle more likely.

- RogerRoeper


yep

RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Apr 11 @ 4:56 PM ET
BTW, you gotta like the direction of a team headed by Brian Burke, Ron Wilson, Dave Nonis, Joe Neuwendyk more than Murray and that cute red-headed kid they've got as a coach.
Nastradamus
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Word., ON
Joined: 03.09.2009

Apr 11 @ 4:58 PM ET
BTW, you gotta like the direction of a team headed by Brian Burke, Ron Wilson, Dave Nonis, Joe Neuwendyk more than Murray and that cute red-headed kid they've got as a coach.
- RogerRoeper


LOL

well to be fair he's been good, very young yea, pretty unexperienced yea, but he's been good.

Piccolo
Joined: 04.11.2008

Apr 11 @ 6:48 PM ET
Kaberle just looks uninterested. He seems like he doesn't want to be here anymore. But alas, he keeps saying that he does.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Apr 12 @ 1:03 AM ET
And the Leafs have better coaching .
- RogerRoeper



Not according to your GOD, Don Cherry.
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Apr 12 @ 1:45 AM ET
Not according to your GOD, Don Cherry.
- Doppleganger


I'm convinced Wilson ran over one of Cherry's dogs.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Apr 12 @ 1:12 PM ET
I'm convinced Wilson ran over one of Cherry's dogs.
- RogerRoeper

But he did make some valid points last night about Wilsons record and attitude in toronto...........or do you disagree with God Cherry????

Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Apr 12 @ 1:25 PM ET
toronto goals against per game 30th....Ottawa 16th

toronto points percentage .494.........Ottawa .506

toronto PP% 18.8(16th).....Ottawa 19.5 (10th)

toronto PK 30th.............Ottawa 15th

RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Apr 12 @ 1:44 PM ET
But he did make some valid points last night about Wilsons record and attitude in toronto...........or do you disagree with God Cherry????


- Doppleganger



I agree with Cherry about what Wilson says about the players. He should cut it out.

But the record means nothing. This team was picked by many to be the worst in the entire NHL. They also lost Sundin. Maurice is hardly a better coach than Wilson.
Leafy_84
Toronto Maple Leafs
Joined: 12.29.2008

Apr 13 @ 8:28 AM ET
toronto goals against per game 30th....Ottawa 16th

toronto points percentage .494.........Ottawa .506

toronto PP% 18.8(16th).....Ottawa 19.5 (10th)

toronto PK 30th.............Ottawa 15th

- Doppleganger


Toronto star players 0...Ottawa at least 3 (Spezza, Alfie, Heatley)

Toronto games lost to injury among the highest in the league (had over 100 on d alone)...Ottawa had a few big injuries to guys like Neil and Volchenkov, but probably are pretty low on the overall scale

Toronto rookie games played the most in the league ~430...Ottawa about ~275

Bottom line is despite all of the numbers you're throwing out...
Ottawa 11th in the East, 10 points out of a playoff position
Toronto 12th in the East, 12 points out of a playoff position

That's a two point difference between the two teams...one that has no real star players (arguably Kaberle, I guess) and one is supposed to have one of the most dynamic forward lines in the league, one that is supposed to be just entering a rebuild and shouldn't be ready for a few years and one that should be in Cup contention (or at the very least be a given for the playoffs), one team lead by rookies and one lead by vets...and yet the one that is on the negative side of so many of these factors (including the ones you pointed out) still only finished two points under the team that has better numbers in every aspect, more star players, less rookies and is just a few years removed from reaching the Stanley Cup.

If that's something for Sens fans to be optimistic about they sure have lowered their standards from two years ago...and pretty much the last decade.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Apr 13 @ 9:54 AM ET
Toronto star players 0...Ottawa at least 3 (Spezza, Alfie, Heatley)

Toronto games lost to injury among the highest in the league (had over 100 on d alone)...Ottawa had a few big injuries to guys like Neil and Volchenkov, but probably are pretty low on the overall scale

Toronto rookie games played the most in the league ~430...Ottawa about ~275

Bottom line is despite all of the numbers you're throwing out...
Ottawa 11th in the East, 10 points out of a playoff position
Toronto 12th in the East, 12 points out of a playoff position

That's a two point difference between the two teams...one that has no real star players (arguably Kaberle, I guess) and one is supposed to have one of the most dynamic forward lines in the league, one that is supposed to be just entering a rebuild and shouldn't be ready for a few years and one that should be in Cup contention (or at the very least be a given for the playoffs), one team lead by rookies and one lead by vets...and yet the one that is on the negative side of so many of these factors (including the ones you pointed out) still only finished two points under the team that has better numbers in every aspect, more star players, less rookies and is just a few years removed from reaching the Stanley Cup.

If that's something for Sens fans to be optimistic about they sure have lowered their standards from two years ago...and pretty much the last decade.

- Leafy_84



the debate in this thread is "WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?"

If these two teams remain exactly as they are now, to start the season, I would argue that the Senators would have a much better chance to secure a playoff spot.

However between now and the next season there will be the Draft perhaps trades and some free agent signings.

Then the story could be very different.

There is no need for discussion about "lowering standards"..........especially when it could be said that some leaf fans have lowered theirs over the years.

I remember way back when toronto used to make the playoffs and were ecstatic because they had "at least beat out the Sens" before they too where sent packing.

toronto has a lot of cap space, and could very well bring in some big names over the summer. Ottawa has fewer options in terms of cap space, and are also limited on big assets who can be traded.........so this discussion will continue as the off season unfolds, and opinions will change.
Leafy_84
Toronto Maple Leafs
Joined: 12.29.2008

Apr 14 @ 8:44 AM ET
the debate in this thread is "WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?"

If these two teams remain exactly as they are now, to start the season, I would argue that the Senators would have a much better chance to secure a playoff spot.

However between now and the next season there will be the Draft perhaps trades and some free agent signings.

Then the story could be very different.

There is no need for discussion about "lowering standards"..........especially when it could be said that some leaf fans have lowered theirs over the years.

I remember way back when toronto used to make the playoffs and were ecstatic because they had "at least beat out the Sens" before they too where sent packing.

toronto has a lot of cap space, and could very well bring in some big names over the summer. Ottawa has fewer options in terms of cap space, and are also limited on big assets who can be traded.........so this discussion will continue as the off season unfolds, and opinions will change.

- Doppleganger


I 100% agree...but don't necessarily think that means the Sens are in a better position if they are just squeaking into 7th or 8th place and getting swept by a power house competing for the Cup.

To me being in a better position means competing for the Cup. Obviously the Sens are way ahead of the Leafs in that department but unless some major changes go down this team won't be competing for the Cup against some of the big teams in the East any time soon. I personally hope that Toronto continues to tear things down and commit to a full rebuild and feel that by committing to a full rebuild they are in a better position because it may take years but at least they'll have a chance at putting a competitive team together...if the Sens continue to try and compete every year (like the Leafs pre-lockout) they won't ever have a lot of cap space and they won't get those top 5 draft picks so they'll just stagnate.
Aetherial
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: degenerate gamblers like yourself usually end up getting the big payoff. just keep at it.
Joined: 06.30.2006

Apr 14 @ 10:01 AM ET
toronto goals against per game 30th....Ottawa 16th

toronto points percentage .494.........Ottawa .506

toronto PP% 18.8(16th).....Ottawa 19.5 (10th)

toronto PK 30th.............Ottawa 15th

- Doppleganger



yeah, but, believe it or not, I like the Leafs young players and prospects a LOT, I mean WAY, more than Ottawa's.

Also our best player is no longer on the downside of his career and has hit the serious injury prone years.

Right now, Ottawa is slightly better. I think this is going to change over the next couple years.
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Apr 14 @ 4:53 PM ET
yeah, but, believe it or not, I like the Leafs young players and prospects a LOT, I mean WAY, more than Ottawa's.

- Aetherial



So do I. Ottawa doesn't have close to the strong system they once did.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Apr 14 @ 7:23 PM ET
So do I. Ottawa doesn't have close to the strong system they once did.
- RogerRoeper



If it means anything, the Ottawa AHL club finished the season with a slightly better record than toronto's
sens rock
Joined: 09.30.2007

Apr 14 @ 7:23 PM ET
yeah, but, believe it or not, I like the Leafs young players and prospects a LOT, I mean WAY, more than Ottawa's.

Also our best player is no longer on the downside of his career and has hit the serious injury prone years.

Right now, Ottawa is slightly better. I think this is going to change over the next couple years.

- Aetherial


I think they're both equally poor but improving.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Apr 14 @ 11:21 PM ET
If it means anything, the Ottawa AHL club finished the season with a slightly better record than toronto's
- Doppleganger


Not very much, no. Besides the fact that the top prospects not with the Leafs/Sens aren't in the AHL (CHL/SEL/KHL/NCAA), the Marlies lost WAY more games to guys getting called up to the Leafs than Bingo did to the Sens.

Personally, I don't even think it's remotely close, prospect wise (or better yet, let's go with any player in the system under, say, 23 or 24. I'd take the Leafs forward prospects without a doubt, I'd take the Leafs D, a little more marginally. The Sens have Elliot, who in net has been a hell of a lot better than Pogge, so they have us there, and that's pretty important, but if Burke lands Gustavsson, it's game over, Leafs by a landslide. I'll give the goalie position a little leeway on the age restriction, both goalies are 24.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Apr 15 @ 12:07 AM ET
well, the Leafs have better coaching, a better GM, a better prospect pool, a more solid NHL d-core, and more roster depth... the Sens do have some actual stars on their team... guys who are actually proven NHLers, and 2 of the guys are still pretty young to.

Right now the Sens are a better team, and have a better chance at making the playoffs next season, but it won't stay that way for long
Sp00nz
Location: Ottawa, ON
Joined: 08.29.2006

Apr 16 @ 12:16 AM ET
9 pages of homer vs homer.

Yayyyyyyyyyy
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