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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
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burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Sep 21 @ 11:34 PM ET
Phaneuf, Gunnarsson, Ranger, Gardiner, Franson. Leafs have five players who can play in the top four. Of those Phaneuf, Gunnarsson, and Ranger have a fair bit of experience in that role while Gardiner and Franson don't.

Looks like Ottawa is kind of in a similar situation, though I still take Ottawa's D over Toronto's right now mostly because of Karlsson lol.

- daeth


agreed.
daeth
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: What year is this?, ON
Joined: 09.15.2005

Sep 21 @ 11:40 PM ET
Of course this is the POV of a fan of an organization that has not shown much progress in the last 7 or 8 seasons, until last season, and the previous AHL season.


I wonder how you would measure your organization's depth if not for these "Goofy" tournaments. Any suggestions?

- Doppleganger

If it was a serious tournament with the best prospects available on each team playing then sure, it'd have some value. That's not what it was though. There were lots of tryouts and undrafted players playing with some of the better prospects sitting out since it was a meaningless tournament.
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Sep 21 @ 11:43 PM ET
If it was a serious tournament with the best prospects available on each team playing then sure, it'd have some value. That's not what it was though. There were lots of tryouts and undrafted players playing with some of the better prospects sitting out since it was a meaningless tournament.
- daeth



and some had guys that already saw NHL games....
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Sep 21 @ 11:45 PM ET
Yes. Making the playoffs is meaningless to the conversation.

GArdiner has played as a top 4 defenseman, and has played more mins doing so than Cowen.

- burn

Again cowen has played an 82 game sched where he was a top 4 defender on a team that made the playoffs,he has also played an injury shortened season as a top 4 defender in which his team made the playoffs .Gardener has not.This IS fact so when i say Cowen is MORE established in his role as a top4 than gardener this is what i mean .

Cowen has top pairing upside as a number 2 shutdown defender,not gardeners number 1 two way defender upside however.This where the two differ completley
and why i have said Cowen is more established in his role now than Gardener is ,Cowen being closer to his upside than gardener.With gardener,s upside being the more difficult to reach than Cowens
daeth
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: What year is this?, ON
Joined: 09.15.2005

Sep 21 @ 11:51 PM ET
Which team has a more established 3rd line left winger though. That's the question we should really be asking.
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Sep 21 @ 11:59 PM ET
Again cowen has played an 82 game sched where he was a top 4 defender on a team that made the playoffs,he has also played an injury shortened season as a top 4 defender in which his team made the playoffs .Gardener has not.This IS fact so when i say Cowen is MORE established in his role as a top4 than gardener this is what i mean .

Cowen has top pairing upside as a number 2 shutdown defender,not gardeners number 1 two way defender upside however.This where the two differ completley
and why i have said Cowen is more established in his role now than Gardener is ,Cowen being closer to his upside than gardener.With gardener,s upside being the more difficult to reach than Cowens

- top shelf 15






One guy has played top4 mins for 90 NHL games stretched over an 82 game season and an injury shortened season and the other guy has played top 4 mins over 87 games over a 74 game season and an injury shortened season. Somehow one is more established than the other.


top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Sep 22 @ 12:02 AM ET
Which team has a more established 3rd line left winger though. That's the question we should really be asking.
- daeth
Yes ,Toronto,s t6 looks deadly .Wheras ours looks ok in some ways lacking in others,the depth and potential is there. But other than the top line ,we still have more questions than answers
daeth
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: What year is this?, ON
Joined: 09.15.2005

Sep 22 @ 12:04 AM ET
forwards: toronto
defense: ottawa
goaltending: ottawa

like i said several pages back i think if ottawa can stay healthy they can compete for the division this year. spezza staying healthy is almost as unlikely as lupul staying healthy for the leafs though.
daeth
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: What year is this?, ON
Joined: 09.15.2005

Sep 22 @ 12:05 AM ET
Yes ,Toronto,s t6 looks deadly .Wheras ours looks ok in some ways lacking in others,the depth and potential is there. But other than the top line ,we still have more questions than answers
- top shelf 15

i was just kidding anyway
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Sep 22 @ 12:13 AM ET


One guy has played top4 mins for 90 NHL games stretched over an 82 game season and an injury shortened season and the other guy has played top 4 mins over 87 games over a 74 game season and an injury shortened season. Somehow one is more established than the other.



- burn
Is Cowen not more established IN HIS ROLE as a top 4 shutdown defender than Gardener??.I dont get why you seem hell bent on thinking otherwise.Cowen played a full season in this roll in which his team made the playoffs,And part of a shortened season in which he was again in the top 4 and again we made the playoffs.Gardener has not .Cowen,s team had more success with cowen in the top 4. Than Gardener,so when i say more established this what i mean .


You are the only one that doesnt get it
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Sep 22 @ 12:17 AM ET
forwards: toronto
defense: ottawa
goaltending: ottawa

like i said several pages back i think if ottawa can stay healthy they can compete for the division this year. spezza staying healthy is almost as unlikely as lupul staying healthy for the leafs though.

- daeth
Agreed but i have goalies at a draw ,like i said at the begining its close.Toronto t6 looks more established than ours ,but i like our overall center depth a bit better whereas toronto,s wingers take us easy
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Sep 22 @ 7:52 AM ET
Is Cowen not more established IN HIS ROLE as a top 4 shutdown defender than Gardener??.I dont get why you seem hell bent on thinking otherwise.Cowen played a full season in this roll in which his team made the playoffs,And part of a shortened season in which he was again in the top 4 and again we made the playoffs.Gardener has not .Cowen,s team had more success with cowen in the top 4. Than Gardener,so when i say more established this what i mean .


You are the only one that doesnt get it

- top shelf 15



NO!!! How many time can I say it NO!!!.


You can't understand??? Yeah, that's the first true thing you've said in this thread.

You're logic:
Cowan played top 4 as a rookie, and thus is more established.

Problem lies in the fact that Gardiner has also played top 4 in his rookie campaign, and in fact played more in a top4 role than Cowen did.

burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Sep 22 @ 7:55 AM ET
Is Cowen not more established IN HIS ROLE as a top 4 shutdown defender than Gardener??.I dont get why you seem hell bent on thinking otherwise.Cowen played a full season in this roll in which his team made the playoffs,And part of a shortened season in which he was again in the top 4 and again we made the playoffs.Gardener has not .Cowen,s team had more success with cowen in the top 4. Than Gardener,so when i say more established this what i mean .


You are the only one that doesnt get it

- top shelf 15



NO.... you're delusional. there hasn't been a single person that has agreed with you..... this whole site is laughing at you, and you still keep coming back for more. Where do you get that I'm the only one that doesn't get this. Everyone that has commented on this has said you're wrong.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Sep 22 @ 9:08 AM ET
NO.... you're delusional. there hasn't been a single person that has agreed with you..... this whole site is laughing at you, and you still keep coming back for more. Where do you get that I'm the only one that doesn't get this. Everyone that has commented on this has said you're wrong.
- burn



I agree with him on this point.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Sep 22 @ 9:14 AM ET
Is Cowen not more established IN HIS ROLE as a top 4 shutdown defender than Gardener??.I dont get why you seem hell bent on thinking otherwise.Cowen played a full season in this roll in which his team made the playoffs,And part of a shortened season in which he was again in the top 4 and again we made the playoffs.Gardener has not .Cowen,s team had more success with cowen in the top 4. Than Gardener,so when i say more established this what i mean .


You are the only one that doesnt get it

- top shelf 15


You are entirely correct.

Need to understand that your top 4 Dmen each have a fairly well understood role

For example,

D1 Karlsson, outstanding puck possession, controls play, power play

D2 Methot, big, physical, great partner for D1, very good skater, good on penalty kill

D3 Wiercioche big, great passer, power play

D4 Cowen, big, physical, some offensive flair, very good in own end, penalty kill.

Comparisons between Gardiner and Cowen are somewhat redundant. Gardiner is either a D3 (now) or D1 (future). You cannot expect for Gardiner to do what Cowen is really good at doing or vice versa.
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Sep 22 @ 9:14 AM ET
I agree with him on this point.
- Doppleganger



that shouldn't surprise anyone......
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Sep 22 @ 9:16 AM ET
You are entirely correct.

Need to understand that your top 4 Dmen each have a fairly well understood role

For example,

D1 Karlsson, outstanding puck possession, controls play, power play

D2 Methot, big, physical, great partner for D1, very good skater, good on penalty kill

D3 Wiercioche big, great passer, power play

D4 Cowen, big, physical, some offensive flair, very good in own end, penalty kill.

Comparisons between Gardiner and Cowen are somewhat redundant. Gardiner is either a D3 (now) or D1 (future). You cannot expect for Gardiner to do what Cowen is really good at doing or vice versa.

- spatso


You said he's correct and then said he's wrong...... I love this thread.
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Sep 22 @ 9:18 AM ET
You are entirely correct.

Need to understand that your top 4 Dmen each have a fairly well understood role

For example,

D1 Karlsson, outstanding puck possession, controls play, power play

D2 Methot, big, physical, great partner for D1, very good skater, good on penalty kill

D3 Wiercioche big, great passer, power play

D4 Cowen, big, physical, some offensive flair, very good in own end, penalty kill.

Comparisons between Gardiner and Cowen are somewhat redundant. Gardiner is either a D3 (now) or D1 (future). You cannot expect for Gardiner to do what Cowen is really good at doing or vice versa.

- spatso


The comparison was never about skill or what role they play..... this was all about who was/wasn't established.

basically nothing you said here is relevant to the conversation.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Sep 22 @ 9:19 AM ET



You are entirely correct.

Need to understand that your top 4 Dmen each have a fairly well understood role

For example,

D1 Karlsson, outstanding puck possession, controls play, power play

D2 Methot, big, physical, great partner for D1, very good skater, good on penalty kill

D3 Wiercioche big, great passer, power play

D4 Cowen, big, physical, some offensive flair, very good in own end, penalty kill.

Comparisons between Gardiner and Cowen are somewhat redundant. Gardiner is either a D3 (now) or D1 (future). You cannot expect for Gardiner to do what Cowen is really good at doing or vice versa.

- spatso



A really good breakdown of the Top 4. Could you do the same for the leafs?

But a point made earlier by my good friend Glucky.........the absence of Gonchar will have an impact on this team that many will not realize until the season gets going.

The acquisition of Corvo is not meant as a replacement for Gonchar's loss, but as a depth move.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Sep 22 @ 9:39 AM ET
You said he's correct and then said he's wrong...... I love this thread.
- burn


I think you need to reread the postings including your own.

He is saying Cowen is better established as a shut down defender. You cannot dispute that perspective. On the other hand, it does not make sense to compare two players who are intended to have entirely different roles.
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Sep 22 @ 9:43 AM ET
I think you need to reread the postings including your own.

He is saying Cowen is better established as a shut down defender. You cannot dispute that perspective. On the other hand, it does not make sense to compare two players who are intended to have entirely different roles.

- spatso



Really??? You go back and read.

He said Cowen is more established in the top4. That's it.

No one is comparing thier roles or their skills. This is merely how is one guy with 90 NHL games under his belt could be more established than a guy with 3 less games (But more mins played, more mins/game).

Answer is he cannot be.

The fact that you keep referencing skill set and role is evidence you are missing the point.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Sep 22 @ 9:51 AM ET
Really??? You go back and read.

He said Cowen is more established in the top4. That's it.

No one is comparing thier roles or their skills. This is merely how is one guy with 90 NHL games under his belt could be more established than a guy with 3 less games (But more mins played, more mins/game).

Answer is he cannot be.

The fact that you keep referencing skill set and role is evidence you are missing the point.

- burn


"Is Cowen not more established IN HIS ROLE as a top 4 shutdown defender than Gardener??"

I think his question is pretty clear!
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Sep 22 @ 10:01 AM ET
A really good breakdown of the Top 4. Could you do the same for the leafs?

But a point made earlier by my good friend Glucky.........the absence of Gonchar will have an impact on this team that many will not realize until the season gets going.

The acquisition of Corvo is not meant as a replacement for Gonchar's loss, but as a depth move.

- Doppleganger


Hard to do right now for Leafs with Franson status undecided. Does anybody really have any idea what the top 4 composition will be opening night?
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Sep 22 @ 10:02 AM ET
"Is Cowen not more established IN HIS ROLE as a top 4 shutdown defender than Gardener??"

I think his question is pretty clear!

- spatso



Like I said go back and read.


Sure ,Reimer has been pretty good for them,and bernier has shown some flashes at the nhl level like lehner.Toronto,s defense is in a situation like ottawa up front ,they have some pieces but their best hopes lie with their kids.Like Reilly,Gardener,franson etc.Where is our top 4 is a bit more established,with Cowen,EK and Methot all looking like locks for the top 4 ,with an emerging weircoch joining them
- top shelf 15



Care to show me where he says anything about roles??



burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Sep 22 @ 10:03 AM ET
Hard to do right now for Leafs with Franson status undecided. Does anybody really have any idea what the top 4 composition will be opening night?
- spatso



Dion Gunner
Gards Ranger
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