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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
Author Message
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Sep 21 @ 5:21 PM ET
GArdiner played 74 games in his rookie year avg 21:45/game, so yeah that's wrong.
- burn

Yeah and how did that go for him ?? did the leafs make the playoffs because of his role in the top4?? .Cowen was a rock in his first season as a shut down defender in the top 4 on a playoff team.When i said our pairings are more established this is what i meant .Cowen is and has proven himself a good second pairing shutdown defender and did more for his teams success in his role than gardener did in his rookie season .
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Sep 21 @ 5:45 PM ET
Yeah and how did that go for him ?? did the leafs make the playoffs because of his role in the top4?? .Cowen was a rock in his first season as a shut down defender in the top 4 on a playoff team.When i said our pairings are more established this is what i meant .Cowen is and has proven himself a good second pairing shutdown defender and did more for his teams success in his role than gardener did in his rookie season .
- top shelf 15



GArdiner played top 4 (more mins than Cowen) and did very well..... not many rookie Dmen score> 30. He did alright.

Still haven't shown how one is more established than the other.
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Sep 21 @ 10:48 PM ET
GArdiner played top 4 (more mins than Cowen) and did very well..... not many rookie Dmen score> 30. He did alright.

Still haven't shown how one is more established than the other.

- burn


Cowen has a full 82 game season on a playoff team where he was a top 4 defender,Gardener and Franson do not,i dont understand why you are not getting this.


burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Sep 21 @ 10:51 PM ET
Cowen has a full 82 game season on a playoff team where he was a top 4 defender,Gardener and Franson do not,i dont understand why you are not getting this.
- top shelf 15



GArdiner played top 4 (and more so than Cowen 21:45 VS 19mins). Not sure how you're not getting this.
daeth
Nashville Predators
Location: shambles, ON
Joined: 09.15.2005

Sep 21 @ 10:54 PM ET
You can only be an established player if you are on a playoff team.

I like learning new things.
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Sep 21 @ 10:57 PM ET
You can only be an established player if you are on a playoff team.

I like learning new things.

- daeth



Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Sep 21 @ 11:01 PM ET
You can only be an established player if you are on a playoff team.

I like learning new things.

- daeth

Didn't Gardiner play in the playoffs last season?

I swear he did.
daeth
Nashville Predators
Location: shambles, ON
Joined: 09.15.2005

Sep 21 @ 11:02 PM ET
Total ice time for Cowen & Gardiner in 2011-2012

Cowen: 1,549:12
Gardiner: 1,618:51

Cowen had the 2nd worst +/- among defensemen on the team
Gardiner had the 2nd best +/- among defensemen on the team

burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Sep 21 @ 11:02 PM ET
Didn't Gardiner play in the playoffs last season?

I swear he did.

- Feeling Glucky?


HAs to be Rookie years, in a full 82 game season while making the playoffs to become established.


top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Sep 21 @ 11:03 PM ET
You can only be an established player if you are on a playoff team.

I like learning new things.

- daeth
So gardener was a proven top 4 defender in his rookie year ,the team misses playoffs gardener finds himself in the ahl to start following season,replaced by an ahl journeyman in kosita.Cowen plays a top 4 role and his team makes the playoffs partly because of his very good rookie season in which he plays all 82 games.But gets hurt misses most of a shortened nhl season ,but returns staright back into a top 4 role without going back to the ahl for polishing.And plays a good part in us advancing to the second round,but Gardener is more established how again????
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Sep 21 @ 11:03 PM ET
Total ice time for Cowen & Gardiner in 2011-2012

Cowen: 1,549:12
Gardiner: 1,618:51

Cowen had the 2nd worst +/- among defensemen on the team
Gardiner had the 2nd best +/- among defensemen on the team

- daeth



Yeah, but....
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Sep 21 @ 11:04 PM ET
Didn't Gardiner play in the playoffs last season?

I swear he did.

- Feeling Glucky?
Sure and cowen has been in two straight playoffs as a top 4 defender,has gardener??
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Sep 21 @ 11:05 PM ET
So gardener was a proven top 4 defender in his rookie year ,the team misses playoffs gardener finds himself in the ahl to start following season,replaced by an ahl journeyman in kosita.Cowen plays a top 4 role and his team makes the playoffs partly because of his very good rookie season in which he plays all 82 games.But gets hurt misses most of a shortened nhl season ,but returns staright back into a top 4 role without going back to the ahl for polishing.And plays a good part in us advancing to the second round,but Gardener is more established how again????
- top shelf 15



He was injured you dimwit. The exact thing you accused me of claiming (when I didn't) that cause Cowen to not be top4 last year.


You are out of your league.
daeth
Nashville Predators
Location: shambles, ON
Joined: 09.15.2005

Sep 21 @ 11:06 PM ET
So gardener was a proven top 4 defender in his rookie year ,the team misses playoffs gardener finds himself in the ahl to start following season,replaced by an ahl journeyman in kosita.Cowen plays a top 4 role and his team makes the playoffs partly because of his very good rookie season in which he plays all 82 games.But gets hurt misses most of a shortened nhl season ,but returns staright back into a top 4 role without going back to the ahl for polishing.And plays a good part in us advancing to the second round,but Gardener is more established how again????
- top shelf 15

I don't think either player has proven anything really, though Gardiner's rookie season was as good as Cowen's and he was great in the playoffs vs Boston.
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Sep 21 @ 11:06 PM ET
So gardener was a proven top 4 defender in his rookie year ,the team misses playoffs gardener finds himself in the ahl to start following season,replaced by an ahl journeyman in kosita.Cowen plays a top 4 role and his team makes the playoffs partly because of his very good rookie season in which he plays all 82 games.But gets hurt misses most of a shortened nhl season ,but returns staright back into a top 4 role without going back to the ahl for polishing.And plays a good part in us advancing to the second round,but Gardener is more established how again????
- top shelf 15



just (frank)ing wow!!

unbelievable.

who ties your shoes for you?
Pie
Montreal Canadiens
Location: taking the low road
Joined: 10.14.2006

Sep 21 @ 11:08 PM ET
daeth
Nashville Predators
Location: shambles, ON
Joined: 09.15.2005

Sep 21 @ 11:14 PM ET

- Pie

that kind of terrifies me



top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Sep 21 @ 11:15 PM ET
just (frank)ing wow!!

unbelievable.

who ties your shoes for you?

- burn
Again has cowen not been in the playoffs twice to Gardeners once as a top 4 defender??

Instead of deflecting answer the question
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Sep 21 @ 11:16 PM ET
Again has cowen not been in the playoffs twice to Gardeners once as a top 4 defender??

Instead of deflecting answer the question

- top shelf 15



Yes. Question answered....... how the (frank) does that make him more established.


*doesn't expect straight answer*
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Sep 21 @ 11:19 PM ET
I don't think either player has proven anything really, though Gardiner's rookie season was as good as Cowen's and he was great in the playoffs vs Boston.
- daeth
Cowen did prove he was a top 4 defender on our team and did have a part in our team ,that many experts picked for last making the playoffs.This was the reason i said ottawa,s top 4 looks to be more established in their roles than toronto does at the moment.

But others seem to think i was just bashing away
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Sep 21 @ 11:24 PM ET
Yes. Question answered....... how the (frank) does that make him more established.


*doesn't expect straight answer*

- burn
So having a defenseman that has proven worthy enough to play top 4 mins on a team that has made the playoffs two straight seasons ,isnt enough proof to suggest he may be a bit more established in his role as a top 4 defender .Than a defender that has yet to play a full 82 game sched with him in the top 4 in which his team made the playoffs
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Sep 21 @ 11:29 PM ET
Cowen did prove he was a top 4 defender on our team and did have a part in our team ,that many experts picked for last making the playoffs.This was the reason i said ottawa,s top 4 looks to be more established in their roles than toronto does at the moment.

But others seem to think i was just bashing away

- top shelf 15



How can you keep missing the point.... I didn't say you were bashing. I never once said anything about skill or who was better than who.

This is all about how a guy with 90 NHL games (avg 19mins/game) is somehow more established than a guy with 87 NHL games (avg 21:45/game).

It's unfathomable to more established than a guy that has played more than you. it goes against the definition of the word.
daeth
Nashville Predators
Location: shambles, ON
Joined: 09.15.2005

Sep 21 @ 11:30 PM ET
Phaneuf, Gunnarsson, Ranger, Gardiner, Franson. Leafs have five players who can play in the top four. Of those Phaneuf, Gunnarsson, and Ranger have a fair bit of experience in that role while Gardiner and Franson don't.

Looks like Ottawa is kind of in a similar situation, though I still take Ottawa's D over Toronto's right now mostly because of Karlsson lol.
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Sep 21 @ 11:31 PM ET
So having a defenseman that has proven worthy enough to play top 4 mins on a team that has made the playoffs two straight seasons ,isnt enough proof to suggest he may be a bit more established in his role as a top 4 defender .Than a defender that has yet to play a full 82 game sched with him in the top 4 in which his team made the playoffs
- top shelf 15




Yes. Making the playoffs is meaningless to the conversation.

GArdiner has played as a top 4 defenseman, and has played more mins doing so than Cowen.
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Sep 21 @ 11:34 PM ET
Guys.... FYI, Crosby played 81 games in 05-06 putting up 39 goals, 102pts, but we had to wait til 06-07 to call him established.


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