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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
Author Message
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Sep 20 @ 4:30 PM ET
Using the rookie tournament "wins" as some sort of organizational accomplishment is kind of goofy. At best things like that are good for figuring out how individual players are coming along with their development, though it's such a small sample size that it's not even all that meaningful for that either.

I'd rather a player have a good game against higher quality competition though.

- daeth

I'm not even sure where the rookie tournament stats are available from...

Like... if i said the Leafs came in first 4 out of the last 5 years... how would he disprove that?
daeth
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Drink full, and descend, ON
Joined: 09.15.2005

Sep 20 @ 4:37 PM ET
I'm not even sure where the rookie tournament stats are available from...

Like... if i said the Leafs came in first 4 out of the last 5 years... how would he disprove that?

- Feeling Glucky?

he probably has it all bookmarked or something
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Sep 20 @ 4:54 PM ET
he probably has it all bookmarked or something
- daeth



edit: the 2 worst teams in this 3-game, 4 team tournament were Chicago and Pittsburgh. I don't know how they'll live this down.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Sep 21 @ 8:32 AM ET
Using the rookie tournament "wins" as some sort of organizational accomplishment is kind of goofy. At best things like that are good for figuring out how individual players are coming along with their development, though it's such a small sample size that it's not even all that meaningful for that either.
.

- daeth



Of course this is the POV of a fan of an organization that has not shown much progress in the last 7 or 8 seasons, until last season, and the previous AHL season.


I wonder how you would measure your organization's depth if not for these "Goofy" tournaments. Any suggestions?
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Sep 21 @ 8:34 AM ET
Not a big surprise,Toronto has the better t6 ,not saying ottawa,s wont be good but its still sorting things out .On paper i have the edge in t6 to toronto,the edge to top4 defense in ottawa and the goaltending a draw.So its close,both teams look like playoff teams to me
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Sep 21 @ 8:34 AM ET
I'm not even sure where the rookie tournament stats are available from...

Like... if i said the Leafs came in first 4 out of the last 5 years... how would he disprove that?

- Feeling Glucky?



there is this thing called "Google" or perhaps my memory is better than your's?

Or perhaps I've heard it on local sport Radio...............it's quite the mystery
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Sep 21 @ 8:36 AM ET
Not a big surprise,Toronto has the better t6 ,not saying ottawa,s wont be good but its still sorting things out .On paper i have the edge in t6 to toronto,the edge to top4 defense in ottawa and the goaltending a draw.So its close,both teams look like playoff teams to me
- top shelf 15



Wait a minute............are you saying the goal-tending between Ottawa and toronto is "a Draw" on paper?
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Sep 21 @ 8:41 AM ET
Wait a minute............are you saying the goal-tending between Ottawa and toronto is "a Draw" on paper?
- Doppleganger

Sure ,Reimer has been pretty good for them,and bernier has shown some flashes at the nhl level like lehner.Toronto,s defense is in a situation like ottawa up front ,they have some pieces but their best hopes lie with their kids.Like Reilly,Gardener,franson etc.Where is our top 4 is a bit more established,with Cowen,EK and Methot all looking like locks for the top 4 ,with an emerging weircoch joining them
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Sep 21 @ 8:47 AM ET
Sure ,Reimer has been pretty good for them,and bernier has shown some flashes at the nhl level like lehner.Toronto,s defense is in a situation like ottawa up front ,they have some pieces but their best hopes lie with their kids.Like Reilly,Gardener,franson etc.Where is our top 4 is a bit more established,with Cowen,EK and Methot all looking like locks for the top 4 ,with an emerging weircoch joining them
- top shelf 15



You do realize that Anderson lead the NHL is Sv% with .941 last season, and Lehner was right there with .936 ?

Oh and Anderson also lead the NHL in GAA with 1.69, in fact Ottawa was second only to the Stanley Cup Champions in GAA last season.
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Sep 21 @ 8:49 AM ET
Sure ,Reimer has been pretty good for them,and bernier has shown some flashes at the nhl level like lehner.Toronto,s defense is in a situation like ottawa up front ,they have some pieces but their best hopes lie with their kids.Like Reilly,Gardener,franson etc.Where is our top 4 is a bit more established,with Cowen,EK and Methot all looking like locks for the top 4 ,with an emerging weircoch joining them
- top shelf 15



JAded Cowen has established himself with his 90 games?? Gardiner has played 84 games, and Franson has 243.
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Sep 21 @ 8:50 AM ET
You don realize that Anderson lead the NHL is Sv% with .941 last season, and Lehner was right there with .936 ?

Oh and Anderson also lead the NHL in GGA with 1.69.

- Doppleganger
Yes ,Anderson is great but some of those stats are there because of ottawa,s very solid depth at defense.This where we should have a gap on Toronto,they were carried by their offense ,we where carried by our defense
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Sep 21 @ 8:53 AM ET
JAded Cowen has established himself with his 90 games?? Gardiner has played 84 games, and Franson has 243.
- burn
Dude ,Cowen is a physical shut down defender,that has shown he can play in this league,why are you comparing him to two offensive minded defensemen.Why dont you compare EK,and Weircoch to those two it makes sense doesnt it??
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Sep 21 @ 9:01 AM ET
Dude ,Cowen is a physical shut down defender,that has shown he can play in this league,why are you comparing him to two offensive minded defensemen.Why dont you compare EK,and Weircoch to those two it makes sense doesnt it??

- top shelf 15



A) you did the comparison.

B) what does that have to do with anything?? Are you saying that Cowen playing 90 games as a shutdown Dman makes him more established than an offensive Dman with 3 less games?? or A dman with 153 MORE NHL games???

I wasn't commenting on their talent levels, I was questioning your reasoning on your use of "established". You should probably check the facts first.
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Sep 21 @ 9:07 AM ET
A) you did the comparison.

B) what does that have to do with anything?? Are you saying that Cowen playing 90 games as a shutdown Dman makes him more established than an offensive Dman with 3 less games?? or A dman with 153 MORE NHL games???

I wasn't commenting on their talent levels, I was questioning your reasoning on your use of "established". You probably check the facts first.

- burn
I compared top4 to top4 Which do you think is better??,Ottawa,s with EK,Methot JC and Weircoch?Or Toronto,s whoever they decide to play on it ??
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Sep 21 @ 9:25 AM ET
I compared top4 to top4 Which do you think is better??,Ottawa,s with EK,Methot JC and Weircoch?Or Toronto,s whoever they decide to play on it ??
- top shelf 15



Ottawa's is good.... I don't have a problem with the Leafs either. EK gives Ottawa an advantage, but I'm not sure ottawa's top 4 is much if at all better defensively.


Again, My comment wasn't about who was better or worse. I made a comment about your use of established which you have now avoided for several posts. Franson is hardly a kid anymore, and has played more than 2.5X as many games as Cowen who you called established while referring to Franson as a kid.
TheTaoOfSemenko
Vegas Golden Knights
Joined: 07.01.2009

Sep 21 @ 9:32 AM ET
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Sep 21 @ 9:33 AM ET
Ottawa's is good.... I don't have a problem with the Leafs either. EK gives Ottawa an advantage, but I'm not sure ottawa's top 4 is much if at all better defensively.


Again, My comment wasn't about who was better or worse. I made a comment about your use of established which you have now avoided for several posts. Franson is hardly a kid anymore, and has played more than 2.5X as many games as Cowen who you called established while referring to Franson as a kid.

- burn

No you chose to read as a attack on the leafs players and trolled me ,i never did anything of the sort .I said the sens and leafs are close ,with the edge up front going to the leafs ,goaltending as a draw and the edge on defense to ottawa.But you read it as Cowen >>>>than Franson and gardener,when all i meant was in terms of actual top4 pairings .That usually go Shut down defender PMD ,not skill of pmd VRS shutdown defender
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Sep 21 @ 9:44 AM ET
JAded Cowen has established himself with his 90 games?? Gardiner has played 84 games, and Franson has 243.
- burn

Franson hasn't played a significant role on any team until last year, and Gardiner took a step back last season(after a concussion)

I see no fault with what he's saying
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Sep 21 @ 9:47 AM ET
No you chose to read as a attack on the leafs players and trolled me ,i never did anything of the sort .I said the sens and leafs are close ,with the edge up front going to the leafs ,goaltending as a draw and the edge on defense to ottawa.But you read it as Cowen >>>>than Franson and gardener,when all i meant was in terms of actual top4 pairings .That usually go Shut down defender PMD ,not skill of pmd VRS shutdown defender
- top shelf 15



go back and read again. No such thing happened.

I've said on more than one occasion that I'm not talking about who is better than who. Why do you keep coming back with that?? Are you drunk?? I never once said anything about who is better than who. This is about how you classify one guy with 90 games as established and yet a guy that has 3 less games and a guy that have 153 MORE games aren't yet established.


This has nothing to do with who is better than who...... if you cannot get that through you're thick skull then don't bother responding.
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Sep 21 @ 9:52 AM ET
Franson hasn't played a significant role on any team until last year, and Gardiner took a step back last season(after a concussion)

I see no fault with what he's saying

- Feeling Glucky?

Thank you I wasnt bashing skill level of Toronto,s pmd ,i just meant Ottawa was a bit more established in where they are going with their top4 this season than toronto.This will change however when guys like reilly,gardener and franson get more accustomed to their rolls on the team.

If you look at the forwards Toronto has the edge ,we have some promise but its hardly proven when you compare the two teams
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Sep 21 @ 9:53 AM ET
Franson hasn't played a significant role on any team until last year, and Gardiner took a step back last season(after a concussion)

I see no fault with what he's saying

- Feeling Glucky?


Ok... that's a somewhat reasonable explanation...... that's what I was looking for. I don't necessarily buy that but at least it's an explanation.

I don't think 1 NHL year is enough to call a guy established.
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Sep 21 @ 9:53 AM ET
Thank you I wasnt bashing skill level of Toronto,s pmd ,i just meant Ottawa was a bit more established in where they are going with their top4 this season than toronto.This will change however when guys like reilly,gardener and franson get more accustomed to their rolls on the team.

If you look at the forwards Toronto has the edge ,we have some promise but its hardly proven when you compare the two teams

- top shelf 15



WOW you just don't get it do you. No one said you were.
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Sep 21 @ 10:11 AM ET

Leafs top 4 = 1181 NHL games

Sens top 4 = 695 NHL games.


Sens are more established.

Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Sep 21 @ 10:30 AM ET
You know... without Gonchar... Ottawa's d doesn't look that great.

Toronto's isn't insane either...

But I think Toronto's forward group is more superior to Ottawa's than Ottawa's D is to Toronto's
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Sep 21 @ 10:31 AM ET
Leafs top 4 = 1181 NHL games

Sens top 4 = 695 NHL games.


Sens are more established.


- burn
Top two shut down defenders are Methot and JC ,Toronto,s are Phaneuf and Gunnerson ,Toronto,s two pmd are Franson and Gardener,where as Ottawa has EK and Weircoch.Three of ottawa top 4 are in their rolls for sure.With weircoch slotting in the 4 pmd roll.So is ottawa not more established in their pairings than Toronto is at this time with Franson still being unsigned and reilly not being ready??
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