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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
Author Message
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Dec 6 @ 2:37 PM ET
yeah, uh, I don't think this quote says what you seem to want to twist it in to.

Price did have some struggles early on in his career.

- Aetherial



Fox news in da house!!!
systemtool
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Real men always have to poo, ON
Joined: 09.12.2007

Dec 6 @ 5:30 PM ET
I can see the Sens counting their nickels in order to add some depth to the Sens. Probably trade more picks and/or youth. But not to win now. To win in the future. When Brassard Phaneuf are in their prime.
Nucker101
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: All right everyone, listen up
Joined: 09.26.2010

Dec 6 @ 5:32 PM ET
Boston Red Sox
systemtool
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Real men always have to poo, ON
Joined: 09.12.2007

Dec 6 @ 5:35 PM ET
Boston Red Sox
- Nucker101


Yeah. Crazy. Love baseball. Not sure I'm a fan of what the Jay's are doing though. So far..
Nucker101
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: All right everyone, listen up
Joined: 09.26.2010

Dec 6 @ 5:42 PM ET
Yeah. Crazy. Love baseball. Not sure I'm a fan of what the Jay's are doing though. So far..
- systemtool


They're in a weird/awkward position for sure. Don't have a great farm system and aren't the favs in their own division anymore.
systemtool
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Real men always have to poo, ON
Joined: 09.12.2007

Dec 6 @ 5:47 PM ET
They're in a weird/awkward position for sure. Don't have a great farm system and aren't the favs in their own division anymore.
- Nucker101


Seems like a half assed budgeted rebuild retool. May as well just rebuild.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Dec 6 @ 7:25 PM ET
I can see the Sens counting their nickels in order to add some depth to the Sens. Probably trade more picks and/or youth. But not to win now. To win in the future. When Brassard Phaneuf are in their prime.
- systemtool

Dopps has told you enough times: the sens have no intention of winning.

Why don't you listen?
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Dec 6 @ 7:26 PM ET
They're in a weird/awkward position for sure. Don't have a great farm system and aren't the favs in their own division anymore.
- Nucker101

For a second I thought you were talking about the sens, and was going to question you on your use of the word "anymore"
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Dec 7 @ 7:23 AM ET
Fox news in da house!!!
- prock



senstroll
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Dec 7 @ 8:30 AM ET
Seems like a half assed budgeted rebuild retool. May as well just rebuild.
- systemtool



The Jays are near the top of MLB in payroll how is that budgeted?
D0PPELGANGER
Ottawa Senators
Location: Ottawa, ON
Joined: 05.06.2015

Dec 7 @ 8:45 AM ET
Erik karlsson will never win a cup, I'm sure of it. if I were a GM and was offered Karlsson for free I'd turn it down.
- prock


systemtool
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Real men always have to poo, ON
Joined: 09.12.2007

Dec 7 @ 8:50 AM ET
The Jays are near the top of MLB in payroll how is that budgeted?
- senstroll


Thanks to AA. Not this new regime. They're just getting started. Considering this is a that's made the playoffs two seasons in a row and won a round. Should be going for it now imo.
senstroll
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Dec 7 @ 9:18 AM ET
Thanks to AA. Not this new regime. They're just getting started. Considering this is a that's made the playoffs two seasons in a row and won a round. Should be going for it now imo.
- systemtool


Well AA or Shapiro/Atkins dont set the payroll number.

here are the numbers since 2013

2013 -131m
2014 -145m
2015 -140m
2016 -159m
2017 -Projected 160-165

The Jays are around 7th-10 in the league, basically in the 2nd tier of spenders
I just dont get why the GM gets blamed for the amount they can spend

with 160 mil you should be able to build a contending team..and they have
so far projections have them around a 90 win team

sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Dec 7 @ 9:47 AM ET
Well AA or Shapiro/Atkins dont set the payroll number.

here are the numbers since 2013

2013 -131m
2014 -145m
2015 -140m
2016 -159m
2017 -Projected 160-165

The Jays are around 7th-10 in the league, basically in the 2nd tier of spenders
I just dont get why the GM gets blamed for the amount they can spend

with 160 mil you should be able to build a contending team..and they have
so far projections have them around a 90 win team

- senstroll



I think people are blowing the Edwin loss way out of proportion. I think his production will be replaced by Morales pretty easily (at a significantly reduced price).....I think bautista's production will be replaced by the bat boy because he was pretty f-ing useless last year.

I think the jays were smart not to dump huge long term contracts at 2 guys over the age of 35.

their starting rotation will hopefully be even better than last year as those young guys continue to progress......and not re-signing Richardey is addition by substraction.

my only 2 concerns for this team is getting 1-2 left handed releivers.......and a back up catcher, which won't be that difficult. maybe a bench guy who could bat leadoff for when travis inevitably goes on the IR again.

I think the lineup will look something like

travis
Upton
Donaldson
Morales
Tulo
Martin
Smoak (DH)
Saunders
Pillar

that's still a pretty good lineup
systemtool
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Real men always have to poo, ON
Joined: 09.12.2007

Dec 7 @ 10:26 AM ET
Well AA or Shapiro/Atkins dont set the payroll number.

here are the numbers since 2013

2013 -131m
2014 -145m
2015 -140m
2016 -159m
2017 -Projected 160-165

The Jays are around 7th-10 in the league, basically in the 2nd tier of spenders
I just dont get why the GM gets blamed for the amount they can spend

with 160 mil you should be able to build a contending team..and they have
so far projections have them around a 90 win team

- senstroll


Shapiro and Atkins style is closers to small ball. Or moneyball. You don't have to agree. I think they're going to budget this team even though now is the time to spend imo.
senstroll
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Dec 7 @ 10:26 AM ET
I think people are blowing the Edwin loss way out of proportion. I think his production will be replaced by Morales pretty easily (at a significantly reduced price).....I think bautista's production will be replaced by the bat boy because he was pretty f-ing useless last year.

I think the jays were smart not to dump huge long term contracts at 2 guys over the age of 35.

their starting rotation will hopefully be even better than last year as those young guys continue to progress......and not re-signing Richardey is addition by substraction.

my only 2 concerns for this team is getting 1-2 left handed releivers.......and a back up catcher, which won't be that difficult. maybe a bench guy who could bat leadoff for when travis inevitably goes on the IR again.

I think the lineup will look something like

travis
Upton
Donaldson
Morales
Tulo
Martin
Smoak (DH)
Saunders
Pillar

that's still a pretty good lineup

- sensarmy_11


I really hope the Jays sign Fowler.
EE might be a possibility still, but very slim

I think you are way off on Bautista. From the FG link below, worth a look
510 PA and 3.1 zWAR .. which is better than Carrera, Saunders and upton combined. I get we are used to JB being a force..but its not like he was trash...just by his 2010 standards yes

I also dont get the Richardey hate.. he was a good 5th starter last season..get over what he cost..AA is long gone his big miss


http://www.fangraphs.com/...ctions-toronto-blue-jays/
senstroll
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Dec 7 @ 10:28 AM ET
Shapiro and Atkins style is closers to small ball. Or moneyball. You don't have to agree. I think they're going to budget this team even though now is the time to spend imo.
- systemtool



if small ball = smarter spending while still going to the Jays spending cap then yes
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Dec 7 @ 10:32 AM ET
I really hope the Jays sign Fowler.
EE might be a possibility still, but very slim

I think you are way off on Bautista. From the FG link below, worth a look
510 PA and 3.1 zWAR .. which is better than Carrera, Saunders and upton combined. I get we are used to JB being a force..but its not like he was trash...just by his 2010 standards yes

I also dont get the Richardey hate.. he was a good 5th starter last season..get over what he cost..AA is long gone his big miss


http://www.fangraphs.com/...ctions-toronto-blue-jays/

- senstroll


RE: Richardey and bautista.........

jose is clearly a declining asset, he's been getting worse pretty much every year for the last few. signing him to a big money deal with term right now would be disasterous. my comment about the bat boy was a little tongue in cheek, he still produced but signing him would hurt the team long term IMO.

as for Richardey....yes it's hard to get over what he cost, I probably never will. that being said, I think you can get a way better pitcher to fill that spot. just my opinion.
Not_Yan
Montreal Canadiens
Location: it's an excellent product, easier, quicker, and even better than real mashed potatoes.
Joined: 04.19.2013

Dec 7 @ 10:44 AM ET

LEAFS
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Dec 7 @ 10:48 AM ET

- D0PPELGANGER


He seems to really be happy about personal accolades. Shame he doesn't care more about team ones.
senstroll
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Dec 7 @ 11:02 AM ET
RE: Richardey and bautista.........

jose is clearly a declining asset, he's been getting worse pretty much every year for the last few. signing him to a big money deal with term right now would be disasterous. my comment about the bat boy was a little tongue in cheek, he still produced but signing him would hurt the team long term IMO.

as for Richardey....yes it's hard to get over what he cost, I probably never will. that being said, I think you can get a way better pitcher to fill that spot. just my opinion.

- sensarmy_11


Oh I never said the sign JB to anything at all... Maybe a 1 or 2 year deal for around his QO but thats about it .. he has value, still gets on base...but fans cant get past him not being a 40hr guy anymore..therefor he is trash

oh they do have a better pitcher already to fill the 5th spot..thats why you can let him walk
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Dec 7 @ 11:26 AM ET
Oh I never said the sign JB to anything at all... Maybe a 1 or 2 year deal for around his QO but thats about it .. he has value, still gets on base...but fans cant get past him not being a 40hr guy anymore..therefor he is trash

oh they do have a better pitcher already to fill the 5th spot..thats why you can let him walk

- senstroll


I always thought he was trash because of his attitude more than anything else. he had a mouth that he could no longer back up with his performance.....and that drove me crazy.
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Dec 7 @ 11:29 AM ET
He seems to really be happy about personal accolades. Shame he doesn't care more about team ones.
- prock


systemtool
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Real men always have to poo, ON
Joined: 09.12.2007

Dec 7 @ 11:52 AM ET
if small ball = smarter spending while still going to the Jays spending cap then yes
- senstroll


Meh. Team has come close to the world series. Pay for the talent and make a go at it again or rebuild. But don't spend less for inferior players and tell me you just make chicken salad out of chicken poop. Pick a direction.
senstroll
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Dec 7 @ 12:15 PM ET
Meh. Team has come close to the world series. Pay for the talent and make a go at it again or rebuild. But don't spend less for inferior players and tell me you just make chicken salad out of chicken poop. Pick a direction.
- systemtool



they offered EE 80 million - He declined

They had to change plans, who would you have signed?

So far they are making some changes ..getting some hitters who can hit lefties, Pearce demolishes LHP .. Morales is an improvement also.

So far the new guys have been able to get value instead of wasting money .. Grilli, Benoit and Liriano had for nothing .. also upton who sucks..but the Jays are paying him 1 million this season.

will have to wait it out.. I expect 1 more signed out of Fowler/EE/Bautista


Edwin is probably not even worth 80 actually

https://www.washingtonpos...tw&utm_term=.91f4b30029f3

Early projections have Encarnacion producing just 2.3 wins above replacement in 2017, which would be worth $18.4 million in free agency. If we reduce his wins above replacement by a half-win each year, at the same time inflating the cost of a win in free agency by 5 percent per year, that pegs Encarnacion’s five-year value at $55.3 million, or about half of what his agent thinks he is worth. If you think his aging curve will be less immediate and project an optimistic 3.0 fWAR for 2017, his five-year value would come in at $86.3 million — still well below his reported asking price.
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