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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
Author Message
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Nov 16 @ 10:08 AM ET
Too bad you guys give so many points away to the rest of the league.

.656 should have you comfortably in a playoff position.

Will haunt you this winter as the schedule gets tougher.

- Tumbleweed


Well that is the question. Sens have gone defensive in an attempt to improve overall. They are playing good defensive hockey. Karlsson is amazing in the new system. The assumption is that the teams playing the stronger defensive game will improve proportionately at a better rate once everyone ratchets up their game after Christmas.

We have all seen what happens if teams rely on offence to over power their rivals.

Ottawa power play is at 8%. If Ottawa is going to contend they need to maintain their current defensive levels and bring their power play up to the league average.

Tumbleweed
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: tenav for drouin. lol @ canucks
Joined: 03.14.2014

Nov 16 @ 10:17 AM ET
Well that is the question. Sens have gone defensive in an attempt to improve overall. They are playing good defensive hockey. Karlsson is amazing in the new system. The assumption is that the teams playing the stronger defensive game will improve proportionately at a better rate once everyone ratchets up their game after Christmas.

We have all seen what happens if teams rely on offence to over power their rivals.

Ottawa power play is at 8%. If Ottawa is going to contend they need to maintain their current defensive levels and bring their power play up to the league average.

- spatso


I think the right thing to for the sens is to try and get this mediocre roster in the playoffs, though the better thing would be to tear it down and start a rebuild.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Nov 16 @ 10:21 AM ET
Wasn't this the main reason Boucher was brought in and the brassard deal was made?
- burn



no. they wanted to tighten up defensively.

what sens fans failed to realize is if you play tighter defensive hockey, your goal scoring will drop as well. they expected to c9ntinue to score while their goals against dropped.

it doesn't work that way though.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Nov 16 @ 10:25 AM ET
I also think Boucher believes that there are very few teams can keep up with Ottawa when they go 3 on 3 in overtime play. So, the Sens seem to be content with getting into the post game track meets. Spooky last night, they had a 2 on 0 breakaway (Turris and Karlsson and failed to score).
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Nov 16 @ 10:31 AM ET
no. they wanted to tighten up defensively.

what sens fans failed to realize is if you play tighter defensive hockey, your goal scoring will drop as well. they expected to c9ntinue to score while their goals against dropped.

it doesn't work that way though.

- prock


I think that is correct.

I think they believe if they can get their power play up to the league average they will contend. The D gets it and is playing great. Karlsson is playing the best hockey of his career. Turris is really strong. But there are some guys who are still trying to figure it out.
Tumbleweed
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: tenav for drouin. lol @ canucks
Joined: 03.14.2014

Nov 16 @ 10:33 AM ET
I also think Boucher believes that there are very few teams can keep up with Ottawa when they go 3 on 3 in overtime play. So, the Sens seem to be content with getting into the post game track meets. Spooky last night, they had a 2 on 0 breakaway (Turris and Karlsson and failed to score).
- spatso


Tumbleweed
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: tenav for drouin. lol @ canucks
Joined: 03.14.2014

Nov 16 @ 10:34 AM ET
I think that is correct.

I think they believe if they can get their power play up to the league average they will contend. The D gets it and is playing great. Karlsson is playing the best hockey of his career. Turris is really strong. But there are some guys who are still trying to figure it out.

- spatso


We’ll see when the sens miss the playoffs. Why don’t you want to talk about a rebuild? Every year, this is a discussion among fans of mediocre teams. I don’t know why we can’t talk about it.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Nov 16 @ 10:35 AM ET
I think the right thing to for the sens is try and get this mediocre roster in the playoffs, though the better thing would be to tear it down and start a rebuild.
- Tumbleweed


That is crazy, Ottawa has the best young Dman in the world. He is just coming into his prime. More important, for the very first time, the team and the system has been built around him and the preliminary results are very good and they could believe that they are going to get even better.
Tumbleweed
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: tenav for drouin. lol @ canucks
Joined: 03.14.2014

Nov 16 @ 10:37 AM ET
That is crazy, Ottawa has the best young Dman in the world. He is just coming into his prime. More important, for the very first time, the team and the system has been built around him and the preliminary results are very good and they could believe that they are going to get even better.
- spatso


Ottawa’s record is soley on the back of anderson’s inspired play. Trading karlson now would get a really good return.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Nov 16 @ 10:47 AM ET
Ottawa’s record is soley on the back of anderson’s inspired play. Trading karlson now would get a really good return.
- Tumbleweed


Jealousy is a painful emotion.

Karlsson has played phenomenal hockey. Turns has been very good (8 goals). Methot, Ceci and Phaneuf have been very strong and Borowiecki probably played his best game as a Sens last night. Stone is playing well. Most of the other guys are still trying to adapt to the new system...but this is a good team that is going to get better.
Tumbleweed
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: tenav for drouin. lol @ canucks
Joined: 03.14.2014

Nov 16 @ 10:49 AM ET
Jealousy is a painful emotion.

Karlsson has played phenomenal hockey. Turns has been very good (8 goals). Methot, Ceci and Phaneuf have been very strong and Borowiecki probably played his best game as a Sens last night. Stone is playing well. Most of the other guys are still trying to adapt to the new system...but this is a good team that is going to get better.

- spatso


carlsson is a good player. i'm not jealous. i truly believe he could get a lot of good pieces back for a rebuild.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Nov 16 @ 10:52 AM ET
carlsson is a good player. i'm not jealous. i truly believe he could get a lot of good pieces back for a rebuild.
- Tumbleweed


Ottawa Senators second in the Division, 7th overall in the NHL.

Toronto Maple Leafs 3.50 goals against. Perhaps you need to think about a goaltender and some help on defence.
Tumbleweed
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: tenav for drouin. lol @ canucks
Joined: 03.14.2014

Nov 16 @ 10:59 AM ET
Ottawa Senators second in the Division, 7th overall in the NHL.

Toronto Maple Leafs 3.50 goals against. Perhaps you need to think about a goaltender and some help on defence.

- spatso


good point. the leafs clearly need help on defense and are still building.

I still don’t understand why we can’t talk about the sens rebuiliding? Turis is another guy. You would get a lot more back than what you paid for him.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Nov 16 @ 11:02 AM ET
Seriously, does anybody else out there wonder if the Leafs made the right pick?

If two players are equal always take the bigger guy, if they are the same size take the centre, if their both centres take the younger of the two. In this case Laine is not a centre so you would think the Leafs should be on pretty safe ground in defending their pick.

But, Laine has scored some fabulous goals....he scored again last night.
Tumbleweed
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: tenav for drouin. lol @ canucks
Joined: 03.14.2014

Nov 16 @ 11:13 AM ET
Seriously, does anybody else out there wonder if the Leafs made the right pick?

If two players are equal always take the bigger guy, if they are the same size take the centre, if their both centres take the younger of the two. In this case Laine is not a centre so you would think the Leafs should be on pretty safe ground in defending their pick.

But, Laine has scored some fabulous goals....he scored again last night.

- spatso


at least you can be confident that the sens made the right pick with brown, though chychrun will be the better player. I’m not even concerned that about a dozen guys drafted well below brown in 2016 are outscoring him; plus the leafs 7th round pick from 2015. brown was a good pick.
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Nov 16 @ 11:23 AM ET
good point. the leafs clearly need help on defense and are still building.

I still don’t understand why we can’t talk about the sens rebuiliding? Turis is another guy. You would get a lot more back than what you paid for him.

- Tumbleweed


why would the sens need to rebuild?

yes, there are a couple of older players (over 30), but with the exception of methot, phaneuf, and andy they're all depth guys who can easily be replaced.

the core of the team is still fairly young and either not yet in their prime or there now(karlsson, stone, turris, Hoffman, ceci, ryan, brassard, pageau, etc). I think with that core, a few signings/trade, and the development of some of the younger guys that Ottawa still has a few years before they need to tear it down.

the pieces are there, now they need to make the right moves to fill in the holes
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Nov 16 @ 11:28 AM ET
good point. the leafs clearly need help on defense and are still building.

I still don’t understand why we can’t talk about the sens rebuiliding? Turris is another guy. You would get a lot more back than what you paid for him.

- Tumbleweed


I have no objection to rebuilds. I strongly advocated that Ottawa should trade Spezza. I was never a fan of trading or resigning Bobby Ryan. But you seem to be mixing outcomes. You rebuild so you win and win in a big way.

In order to win a team needs a superstar, the very best at his position who has the ability to take his team all the way. Price does this for Montreal. Kane in Chicago, Crosby, Stamkos, Doughty.

Teams that win it all are usually the guys who can put the best player on the ice plus the best supporting 5. But it cannot be just any 5. You need a goaltender, a #1 Dman with offensive skills, a shut down Dman. A #1 centre, a power forward and a top forward with breakaway speed. The rest of the team needs to be good but good players are not enough to get you all the way to the top.

If you look at the improvement of the Sens over last year, a large part of it is attributable to Phaneuf and his helping everyone play a stronger defensive game in their own end. Stone has played great since overcoming an early season injury. Turris has been really good and scored some important goals in several winning games.

Sens need for Hoffman to pick up his pace and get with the program. He has missed the open net too many times. Kessel would have been a good addition for the Sens last year.

Tumbleweed
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: tenav for drouin. lol @ canucks
Joined: 03.14.2014

Nov 16 @ 11:29 AM ET
why would the sens need to rebuild?

yes, there are a couple of older players (over 30), but with the exception of methot, phaneuf, and andy they're all depth guys who can easily be replaced.

the core of the team is still fairly young and either not yet in their prime or there now(karlsson, stone, turris, Hoffman, ceci, ryan, brassard, pageau, etc). I think with that core, a few signings/trade, and the development of some of the younger guys that Ottawa still has a few years before they need to tear it down.

the pieces are there, now they need to make the right moves to fill in the holes

- sensarmy_11


Agreed. I think the right thing to do is for the sens to fill those holes. The time to win with karlssun is now. Trading picks/prospects to load up this year makes sense. But the sens are a mediocre team and it makes sense to talk about a rebuild. Typically, fans talk about how the smart plan is for mediocre teams to rebuild.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Nov 16 @ 11:32 AM ET
why would the sens need to rebuild?

yes, there are a couple of older players (over 30), but with the exception of methot, phaneuf, and andy they're all depth guys who can easily be replaced.

the core of the team is still fairly young and either not yet in their prime or there now(karlsson, stone, turris, Hoffman, ceci, ryan, brassard, pageau, etc). I think with that core, a few signings/trade, and the development of some of the younger guys that Ottawa still has a few years before they need to tear it down.

the pieces are there, now they need to make the right moves to fill in the holes

- sensarmy_11



The pieces are not there, if they want to contend. They simply aren't. Pieces like Ryan, Ceci, Brassard, Turris, Hoffman, Pageau, Stone, just do NOT form the core of a contender. IMO, Karlsson doesn't either, but whatever, I know you'll disagree. Cup winning teams generally have a workhorse dman that is tops at both ends of the ice, and as much as you'd like him to be, Karlsson is not that.

Tumbleweed
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: tenav for drouin. lol @ canucks
Joined: 03.14.2014

Nov 16 @ 11:37 AM ET
I have no objection to rebuilds. I strongly advocated that Ottawa should trade Spezza. I was never a fan of trading or resigning Bobby Ryan. But you seem to be mixing outcomes. You rebuild so you win and win in a big way.

In order to win a team needs a superstar, the very best at his position who has the ability to take his team all the way. Price does this for Montreal. Kane in Chicago, Crosby, Stamkos, Doughty.

Teams that win it all are usually the guys who can put the best player on the ice plus the best supporting 5. But it cannot be just any 5. You need a goaltender, a #1 Dman with offensive skills, a shut down Dman. A #1 centre, a power forward and a top forward with breakaway speed. The rest of the team needs to be good but good players are not enough to get you all the way to the top.

If you look at the improvement of the Sens over last year, a large part of it is attributable to Phaneuf and his helping everyone play a stronger defensive game in their own end. Stone has played great since overcoming an early season injury. Turris has been really good and scored some important goals in several winning games.

Sens need for Hoffman to pick up his pace and get with the program. He has missed the open net too many times. Kessel would have been a good addition for the Sens last year.

- spatso


But the Atantic division is starting to take shape.

Mtl will come back down to earth, but all things being equal, they are a +100 point team.

Unless ottawa makes some significant additions, their record is unsustainable and has been on the back of anderson’s inspired play. Bos, tb and fla will all pass the sens. Sens and leafs will hold down the next couple spots.

Det and buff bringing up the rear.

So why not trade tooris and karlssen to teams that have legitimate chances to win the cup, and get back a lot of key pieces for the future?
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Nov 16 @ 11:43 AM ET
The pieces are not there, if they want to contend. They simply aren't. Pieces like Ryan, Ceci, Brassard, Turris, Hoffman, Pageau, Stone, just do NOT form the core of a contender. IMO, Karlsson doesn't either, but whatever, I know you'll disagree. Cup winning teams generally have a workhorse dman that is tops at both ends of the ice, and as much as you'd like him to be, Karlsson is not that.
- prock


Karlsson and Doughty played head to head a week ago and Karlsson was dominant.

The Senators are playing hockey at a .656 pace and Karlsson is the driving force behind the success. So, the Sens are playing great defensive hockey, goals against are way down and Karlsson is still logging big minutes. I don"t think your assumptions know how to provide for those realities.

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