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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
Author Message
systemtool
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Real men always have to poo, ON
Joined: 09.12.2007

Nov 4 @ 7:44 PM ET

- senstroll


A young team has a fututre and can afford to be patient. An older team has to win now. Huge difference between the two teams and answers the question of which team is in a better position.
Nucker101
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: All right everyone, listen up
Joined: 09.26.2010

Nov 5 @ 1:59 AM ET
Habs
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Nov 5 @ 5:39 AM ET
A young team has a fututre and can afford to be patient. An older team has to win now. Huge difference between the two teams and answers the question of which team is in a better position.
- systemtool


I like what the Leafs are doing and for years I argued they should be playing the young guys.

Ottawa, on the other hand, has decided to go the slower development route. Come the end of December, the likely captains of Team Canada (Chabot) and Team USA (White) are Senator prospects and there will be a good sprinkling of other Sens prospects through the tournament.

Sens fans are well familiar with the development cycle of young players. It is fun but it also slows down after meeting each of the other teams for the first time.

The hardest part is that in the second year of development the team sometimes seems to fall off because of weakness at specific positions (goal and defence are the usual killers).

There are many teams that have had great drafting cycles over the past 5 years including Edmonton, Buffalo, Phoenix, Calgary, Winnipeg and Florida. The Leafs are certainly moving inside that group.

Can the Leafs get to the next level? Perhaps. They have had a nice start. But you need to be careful as it can all fall apart in December when teams tighten up their defensive play.

spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Nov 5 @ 6:05 AM ET
Laine has moved into tie for leading league in goals scored (7).
systemtool
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Real men always have to poo, ON
Joined: 09.12.2007

Nov 5 @ 6:37 AM ET
Laine has moved into tie for leading league in goals scored (7).
- spatso





You've been hiding until this happened eh? Hopefully Matthews doesn't get any points tonight so you can stick around. Zibanejad would be tied for the Sens lead in points. Thought I'd mention that since we're sharing stats.

Laine has moved into a tie with Matthews. Just so we're clear.
systemtool
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Real men always have to poo, ON
Joined: 09.12.2007

Nov 5 @ 6:39 AM ET
I like what the Leafs are doing and for years I argued they should be playing the young guys.

Ottawa, on the other hand, has decided to go the slower development route. Come the end of December, the likely captains of Team Canada (Chabot) and Team USA (White) are Senator prospects and there will be a good sprinkling of other Sens prospects through the tournament.

Sens fans are well familiar with the development cycle of young players. It is fun but it also slows down after meeting each of the other teams for the first time.

The hardest part is that in the second year of development the team sometimes seems to fall off because of weakness at specific positions (goal and defence are the usual killers).

There are many teams that have had great drafting cycles over the past 5 years including Edmonton, Buffalo, Phoenix, Calgary, Winnipeg and Florida. The Leafs are certainly moving inside that group.

Can the Leafs get to the next level? Perhaps. They have had a nice start. But you need to be careful as it can all fall apart in December when teams tighten up their defensive play.


- spatso


This year is a development year. I don't expect them to compete for anything so come December, wherever they are in the standings, I won't be disappointed. So long as the kids keep playing well.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Nov 5 @ 6:58 AM ET
This year is a development year. I don't expect them to compete for anything so come December, wherever they are in the standings, I won't be disappointed. So long as the kids keep playing well.
- systemtool


No, I agree. First year the fans are very tolerant and buy into the youthful exuberance. Problem comes more in the second and third year where some fans start hollering for instant results. During the rebuild of the LA Kings there was lots of hollering in years four and five for the rebuild to be blown up and start again. They stayed with the rebuild for a few more year and became Stanley Cup contenders over the usual five year window for an elite team (there are a few exceptions like the Patriots).

Same thing with the Oilers. After 5 years of bottom feeding they finally blew up their front office and many thought they were going to begin a new rebuild. But, they drew and inside straight and got McDavid in the draft, signed a few free agents to strengthen their defensive play and traded for a good goaltender.

Other teams have stayed forever with great draft picks and bottom finishes (Columbus and Phoenix). They don't seem to be able to bring together the right kind of mix that gets them to the next level. Nobody has ever accused Leaf fans of having excessive patience. But, this is a time for patience.
systemtool
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Real men always have to poo, ON
Joined: 09.12.2007

Nov 5 @ 7:04 AM ET
No, I agree. First year the fans are very tolerant and buy into the youthful exuberance. Problem comes more in the second and third year where some fans start hollering for instant results. During the rebuild of the LA Kings there were a few people lots hollering for the rebuild to be blown up and start again. They stayed with the rebuild for a few more year and became Stanley Cup contenders over their five year window.

Same thing with the Oilers. After 5 years of bottom feeding they finally blew up their front office and many thought they were going to begin a new rebuild. But, they drew and inside straight and got McDavid in the draft, signed a few free agents to strengthen their defensive play and traded for a good goaltender.

Other teams have stayed forever with great draft picks and bottom finishes (Columbus and Phoenix). They don't seem to be able to bring together the right kind of mix that gets them to the next level. Nobody has ever accused Leaf fans of having excessive patience. But, this is a time for patience.

- spatso



Leaf fans know it's time for patience. There are two things were waiting on. The youth to emerge, and they are. The other is to clear alot of dead weight salary off the books to use that money to improve the team. Exciting times ahead for the Leafs, though it may take some time to get there. In the meantime the scenery is great and the kids make all the losing worth it.

As long as the management is patient the fans will be too. The last thing the Leafs need is making the same mistakes of the past by trading for the Phaneuf's of the hockey world.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Nov 5 @ 7:27 AM ET
Leaf fans know it's time for patience. There are two things were waiting on. The youth to emerge, and they are. The other is to clear alot of dead weight salary off the books to use that money to improve the team. Exciting times ahead for the Leafs, though it may take some time to get there. In the meantime the scenery is great and the kids make all the losing worth it.

As long as the management is patient the fans will be too. The last thing the Leafs need is making the same mistakes of the past by trading for the Phaneuf's of the hockey world.

- systemtool


I think your just being silly. Clearly it was a mistake for the Leafs to trade for Phaneuf. They thought they could bring him in as a #1 and it would help them get to the playoffs and beyond. Not as bad as the Kessel trade but grounded in the same kind of flawed thinking. The Leafs did not have a roster to support those kind of deals.

Kessel has been a great fit in Pittsburgh. He is being asked to play 2nd and 3rd line minutes and he is thriving playing a secondary role.

The same thing is happening with Phaneuf. He is learning to adapt his play to fit behind the best #1 in hockey. He is mentoring Ceci who has been superb over the last while (coach gave Ceci game puck from last game).

The best thing for the Leafs, Sens and Phaneuf was for Dion to move into a situation where he was no longer logging #1 minutes. So far this year, he has been very solid.
walshyleafsfan
Vancouver Canucks
Location: I genuinely think the IQ level is alot lower there than here, so I get to win more arguments. Walshy
Joined: 07.14.2011

Nov 5 @ 7:40 AM ET
Laine has moved into tie for leading league in goals scored (7).
- spatso

Waited a while for that eh Spats?
systemtool
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Real men always have to poo, ON
Joined: 09.12.2007

Nov 5 @ 7:46 AM ET
I think your just being silly. Clearly it was a mistake for the Leafs to trade for Phaneuf. They thought they could bring him in as a #1 and it would help them get to the playoffs and beyond. Not as bad as the Kessel trade but grounded in the same kind of flawed thinking. The Leafs did not have a roster to support those kind of deals.

Kessel has been a great fit in Pittsburgh. He is being asked to play 2nd and 3rd line minutes and he is thriving playing a secondary role.

The same thing is happening with Phaneuf. He is learning to adapt his play to fit behind the best #1 in hockey. He is mentoring Ceci who has been superb over the last while (coach gave Ceci game puck from last game).

The best thing for the Leafs, Sens and Phaneuf was for Dion to move into a situation where he was no longer logging #1 minutes. So far this year, he has been very solid.

- spatso


Not sure what you're trying to say but the Leafs getting and paying Phaneuf and Kessel was a mistake. Getting rid of them was a blessing. Kessel because the team wasn't close to competing. Phaneuf because he really isn't that good. Paying them those salaries also hurt the teams flexibility. Anyone adding Phaneuf with his contract is making a mistake imo. Regardless if you agree or not. Suggesting otherwise is silly. The Leafs gave up nothing to get a younger cheaper Phaneuf. Sens had to add a prospet and pick to get an older more expensive Phaneuf. Leafs getting Phaneuf wasn't the problem. Nothing they gave up was worth a damn. His play was a problem and so too was the contract our last idiot GM gave him.
walshyleafsfan
Vancouver Canucks
Location: I genuinely think the IQ level is alot lower there than here, so I get to win more arguments. Walshy
Joined: 07.14.2011

Nov 5 @ 7:46 AM ET
I think your just being silly. Clearly it was a mistake for the Leafs to trade for Phaneuf. They thought they could bring him in as a #1 and it would help them get to the playoffs and beyond. Not as bad as the Kessel trade but grounded in the same kind of flawed thinking. The Leafs did not have a roster to support those kind of deals.

Kessel has been a great fit in Pittsburgh. He is being asked to play 2nd and 3rd line minutes and he is thriving playing a secondary role.

The same thing is happening with Phaneuf. He is learning to adapt his play to fit behind the best #1 in hockey. He is mentoring Ceci who has been superb over the last while (coach gave Ceci game puck from last game).

The best thing for the Leafs, Sens and Phaneuf was for Dion to move into a situation where he was no longer logging #1 minutes. So far this year, he has been very solid.

- spatso


2 points in 10 games. -6 so far this year.

Solid indeed.

Could I interest you in Roman Polak for the Sens 1st round pick?

2 points in 8 games and is 0+/-. He's playing out of this world.
walshyleafsfan
Vancouver Canucks
Location: I genuinely think the IQ level is alot lower there than here, so I get to win more arguments. Walshy
Joined: 07.14.2011

Nov 5 @ 7:47 AM ET
Not sure what you're trying to say but the Leafs getting and paying Phaneuf and Kessel was a mistake. Getting rid of them was a blessing. Kessel because the team wasn't close to competing. Phaneuf because he really isn't that good. Paying them those salaries also hurt the teams flexibility. Anyone adding Phaneuf with his contract is making a mistake imo. Regardless if you agree or not. Suggesting otherwise is silly. The Leafs gave up nothing to get a younger cheaper Phaneuf. Sens had to add a prospet and pick to get an older more expensive Phaneuf. Leafs getting Phaneuf wasn't the problem. Nothing they gave up was worth a damn His play was a problem and so too was the contract our last idiot GM gave him.
- systemtool


I wonder if getting rid of Dion and his salary has allowed us to pursue Shattenkirk?
systemtool
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Real men always have to poo, ON
Joined: 09.12.2007

Nov 5 @ 7:50 AM ET
2 points in 10 games. -6 so far this year.

Solid indeed.

Could I interest you in Roman Polak for the Sens 1st round pick?

2 points in 8 games and is 0+/-. He's playing out of this world.

- walshyleafsfan





I've heard everyone but Spatso talk about how ass Ceci has been this year. The guy Phaneuf is supposed to be mentoring. Go figure. Wow but Ceci had a good game!
systemtool
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Real men always have to poo, ON
Joined: 09.12.2007

Nov 5 @ 7:51 AM ET
I wonder if getting rid of Dion and his salary has allowed us to pursue Shattenkirk?
- walshyleafsfan


I dont see the Blues letting him go. And if they do he isn't likely to want to sign with toronto as they aren't contenders.
walshyleafsfan
Vancouver Canucks
Location: I genuinely think the IQ level is alot lower there than here, so I get to win more arguments. Walshy
Joined: 07.14.2011

Nov 5 @ 7:54 AM ET
I dont see the Blues letting him go. And if they do he isn't likely to want to sign with toronto as they aren't contenders.
- systemtool

Most likely correct. Heard he wanted to move to the East though.

Still can't believe we got rid of Dion and his contract.
systemtool
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Real men always have to poo, ON
Joined: 09.12.2007

Nov 5 @ 7:55 AM ET
Most likely correct. Heard he wanted to move to the East though.

Still can't believe we got rid of Dion and his contract.

- walshyleafsfan



Me either. And got Matthews.
walshyleafsfan
Vancouver Canucks
Location: I genuinely think the IQ level is alot lower there than here, so I get to win more arguments. Walshy
Joined: 07.14.2011

Nov 5 @ 8:04 AM ET
Me either. And got Matthews.
- systemtool

So:

Phaneuf and his anchor of a contract, plus 4 chumps

For

3 chumps for 2 months, Lindberg, a 2nd round pick and Matthews (plus whatever they do with that 7 mil).

I'd do that trade every day of the week and twice in Sunday's
systemtool
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Real men always have to poo, ON
Joined: 09.12.2007

Nov 5 @ 8:30 AM ET
So:

Phaneuf and his anchor of a contract, plus 4 chumps

For

3 chumps for 2 months, Lindberg, a 2nd round pick and Matthews (plus whatever they do with that 7 mil).

I'd do that trade every day of the week and twice in Sunday's

- walshyleafsfan


D0PPELGANGER
Ottawa Senators
Location: Ottawa, ON
Joined: 05.06.2015

Nov 5 @ 8:43 AM ET
Thanks Ottawa

Problem is I'm not worried about wins or points. It's a development year and id love another top pick. They seem to work out well.

- systemtool



But here is your dilemma ........... if you get to many high draft picks, eventually they will run out their ELCs and demand more money than the leaf can handle, under the cap, and one of them will have to be traded (Pittsburgh with Staal, Oilers with Hall) .

So at some point you have to move on from tanking and selecting high prospects, and make the move towards becoming a playoff team, and eventually evolving into a Cup contender.

You can't tank for years on end, and expect to retain all the prospects after they develop into players, in a Cap world.
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: GMTM on Eichel: "He certainly won't get his pee pee slapped by me for being a little more outspoken., ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Nov 5 @ 8:54 AM ET
But here is your dilemma ........... if you get to many high draft picks, eventually they will run out their ELCs and demand more money than the leaf can handle, under the cap, and one of them will have to be traded (Pittsburgh with Staal, Oilers with Hall) .

So at some point you have to move on from tanking and selecting high prospects, and make the move towards becoming a playoff team, and eventually evolving into a Cup contender.

You can't tank for years on end, and expect to retain all the prospects after they develop into players, in a Cap world.

- D0PPELGANGER



So they're going to have too many good players? You think that's a problem?

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