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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
Author Message
senstroll
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Apr 17 @ 1:18 PM ET
I think this may well be my favourite senstroll post - excellent points, strong logic. My only rebuttal is to point to the many teams who have bottomed out and just STAYED at the bottom. How many years for Florida? Atlanta (RIP)? Islanders? There's just no promise that sucking ass for half a decade will land you on Lord Stanley's Silver Spitoon...

I'm happy to see the team where they are because of the surprising contributions from our FUTURE core, and the swan song from our beloved captain. We could drop this series in 5 and I wouldn't be disappointed...

- Mr_Squeaks


That I get based on the expectations coming into this season... for the most part people would be disappointed with that if it were any other scenario.

The leafs could be in a similar situation next season, I doubt the expectations will be high at all (talk already about the #1 pick in 2013 in leafs threads).. They could get a good run from the Marlies for the young players to build from (like the Bingo sens).. We get a top 5 pick to add to the prospects (like zbad)...Hopefully next season Kadri, Colborne and Gardiner can start to look like regulars (Gardiner does already, but take the next step like a Karlsson).

There are too many similarities for my liking to the sens... My head right now says I would rather go another season and get another top 5 pick rather than finish 8th and exit quietly... but I can see how it would feel good if the leafs mirrored the sens in that regard also...I will stick to my original mindset that it would have been better for the sens to get another lottery pick in the cupboards for the future instead...
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Apr 17 @ 4:22 PM ET
That I get based on the expectations coming into this season... for the most part people would be disappointed with that if it were any other scenario.

The leafs could be in a similar situation next season, I doubt the expectations will be high at all (talk already about the #1 pick in 2013 in leafs threads).. They could get a good run from the Marlies for the young players to build from (like the Bingo sens).. We get a top 5 pick to add to the prospects (like zbad)...Hopefully next season Kadri, Colborne and Gardiner can start to look like regulars (Gardiner does already, but take the next step like a Karlsson).

There are too many similarities for my liking to the sens... My head right now says I would rather go another season and get another top 5 pick rather than finish 8th and exit quietly... but I can see how it would feel good if the leafs mirrored the sens in that regard also...I will stick to my original mindset that it would have been better for the sens to get another lottery pick in the cupboards for the future instead...

- senstroll


I would certainly support that argument. I did, in fact, make those very points. But, it appears I was wrong. Ottawa is going to add 4 or 5 highly talented rookies to their roster next year. The guys they have added over the last couple of years already look very good. You have to admire the comprehensive approach taken by the Murries and Dorion on resetting this team. Right now the Leafs are not anywhere near the same class.
Nastradamus
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Word., ON
Joined: 03.09.2009

Apr 17 @ 4:48 PM ET
I would certainly support that argument. I did, in fact, make those very points. But, it appears I was wrong. Ottawa is going to add 4 or 5 highly talented rookies to their roster next year. The guys they have added over the last couple of years already look very good. You have to admire the comprehensive approach taken by the Murries and Dorion on resetting this team. Right now the Leafs are not anywhere near the same class.
- spatso


Agreed, that was a wonderful rebuild they've done over there.

spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Apr 17 @ 4:59 PM ET
Agreed, that was a wonderful rebuild they've done over there.
- Nastradamus


I like what Edmonton has done. Ottawa seems to be following the Flyer approach to rebuilding. I guess both can work. The Leafs seem to have carved out there own approach. How can a team miss the playoffs for so many consecutive years and not have a strong representation of home grown talent in their line-up. I think that suggests the depth of the problem.
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Apr 17 @ 6:15 PM ET
I like what Edmonton has done. Ottawa seems to be following the Flyer approach to rebuilding. I guess both can work. The Leafs seem to have carved out there own approach. How can a team miss the playoffs for so many consecutive years and not have a strong representation of home grown talent in their line-up. I think that suggests the depth of the problem.
- spatso


Be horrible every year? They still have no defense to speak of or goaltending.
Oilerulez
Edmonton Oilers
Location: for so many reasons i think the pouliot signing was a mistake. but i will refrain from commenting o, AB
Joined: 02.05.2008

Apr 17 @ 6:30 PM ET
Be horrible every year? They still have no defense to speak of or goaltending.
- RogerRoeper



I totally get that it is fun to rag on edmonton, for the record edmonton did not tank for the picks, after the 06 cup run we had a series of key players leave and a community ownership group who saw the playoffs as a must for the balance sheet.

Once katz entered the scene the team officially started the rebuild, and it was not really an option we had ales hemsky as our star player and a series of usefull nhl caliber players with some who questional nhl players. we had no farm team an instead sent our prospects to other nhl teams farm clubs

to your point about goaltending and defence, it is not as bad as it seems to made out on these boards. dubnyk is a young goaltender who in the last half of the season put up some decent numbers when compared to other teams starters. I Do not think it is outrageous to think he will either stabilise at that level or continue to improve , if by chance he does not work out we have 2 more young prospects who could mature into his replacement

our defence is full of prospects in our system who are getting closer to being nhl ready. Obviously not all are going to pan out but law of averages dictate some will

the teams greatest needs are a solid young true #1 dman and a purpose built 3rd and 4th line.

as to the topicc at hand ottawa will be better in the short term and toronto if they don't crap the bed will be better over time,
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Apr 17 @ 6:43 PM ET
I totally get that it is fun to rag on edmonton, for the record edmonton did not tank for the picks, after the 06 cup run we had a series of key players leave and a community ownership group who saw the playoffs as a must for the balance sheet.

Once katz entered the scene the team officially started the rebuild, and it was not really an option we had ales hemsky as our star player and a series of usefull nhl caliber players with some who questional nhl players. we had no farm team an instead sent our prospects to other nhl teams farm clubs

to your point about goaltending and defence, it is not as bad as it seems to made out on these boards. dubnyk is a young goaltender who in the last half of the season put up some decent numbers when compared to other teams starters. I Do not think it is outrageous to think he will either stabilise at that level or continue to improve , if by chance he does not work out we have 2 more young prospects who could mature into his replacement

our defence is full of prospects in our system who are getting closer to being nhl ready. Obviously not all are going to pan out but law of averages dictate some will

the teams greatest needs are a solid young true #1 dman and a purpose built 3rd and 4th line.

as to the topicc at hand ottawa will be better in the short term and toronto if they don't crap the bed will be better over time,

- Oilerulez


Imagine if the oil could draft a Karlsson type run and gun offensive Dman. Add that to the existing kids and you will have a line up that brings back monster memories of glory.
Oilerulez
Edmonton Oilers
Location: for so many reasons i think the pouliot signing was a mistake. but i will refrain from commenting o, AB
Joined: 02.05.2008

Apr 17 @ 6:49 PM ET
Imagine if the oil could draft a Karlsson type run and gun offensive Dman. Add that to the existing kids and you will have a line up that brings back monster memories of glory.
- spatso



it is hard not to get excited about the teams future. and truthfully as I have been watching oilers hockey right from 79 on. while we were spoiled with crazy talent in the 80's this team has fully refilled the karma bank and i believe has a surplus of future good luck to come as it has truly been 2 decades of below average hockey with notable exceptions to the late 90's 2 nd round series and the 06 run.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Apr 18 @ 6:06 AM ET
So Burke is going to have a full team meeting at the beginning of the next season and tell the leaf players " I don't see you guys as good enough to compete, if you were to make the playoffs, so here's the plan.......I want you to go through the motions this season, and lets end up in the bottom two or three teams so that we can draft someone who'll put us over the top four or five years down the road"



- Doppleganger


This is actually a fairly complex issue. I heard an explanation of the importance of scouting and development that was talking about the teams that do really well in bringing forward talent (Detroit, New Jersey). It was explained that for the scouts draft day is the Super Bowl or their game seven of the Stanley Cup finals. When you deal away picks and prospects trying to find the easier softer way you undermine the confidence of your entire scouting and development team.

I think the most important day for Brian Burke is draft day. I would like to see him add another 1st round pick and another 2nd round pick.

I believe the Leafs have botched the development of Luke Schenn and shattered his confidence. I believe in the kid and think the Leafs should be able to get a mid first rounder or better for him. It is clear that either Schenn or Phaneuf has to go. They apparently despise each other causing a huge split in the dressing room. Maybe Carlyle can fix it. However, I do not think the Phaneuf contract is movable at this time and the Leafs should not start next season carrying this problem over. Obviously, Burke cannot wait until the beginning of next year before doing some important stuff.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Apr 18 @ 7:32 AM ET
So Burke is going to have a full team meeting at the beginning of the next season and tell the leaf players " I don't see you guys as good enough to compete, if you were to make the playoffs, so here's the plan.......I want you to go through the motions this season, and lets end up in the bottom two or three teams so that we can draft someone who'll put us over the top four or five years down the road"



- Doppleganger


You think that's brian burke posting?
senstroll
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Apr 18 @ 9:27 AM ET
So Burke is going to have a full team meeting at the beginning of the next season and tell the leaf players " I don't see you guys as good enough to compete, if you were to make the playoffs, so here's the plan.......I want you to go through the motions this season, and lets end up in the bottom two or three teams so that we can draft someone who'll put us over the top four or five years down the road"



- Doppleganger


Trouble reading... it says "My head" ..not Burke
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Apr 18 @ 10:26 AM ET
.
It is clear that either Schenn or Phaneuf has to go. They apparently despise each other causing a huge split in the dressing room. Maybe Carlyle can fix it. However, I do not think the Phaneuf contract is movable at this time and the Leafs should not start next season carrying this problem over. Obviously, Burke cannot wait until the beginning of next year before doing some important stuff.

- spatso



I'm SHOCKED that Phaneuf has become divisive presence in the locker room. I would have thought that after he pulled the same thing in Calgary he would have learnt his lesson.

Great choice for Captain eh!
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Apr 18 @ 10:28 AM ET
Trouble reading... it says "My head" ..not Burke
- senstroll


But it's your "plan", that you want to see embraced by the leafs, to re-build the leafs.
senstroll
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Apr 18 @ 10:41 AM ET
But it's your "plan", that you want to see embraced by the leafs, to re-build the leafs.
- Doppleganger


I don't see why its so difficult to grasp that I would like to be in a Lottery position instead of 8-10th if those are the options. I dont think anyone will argue that the leafs are not going to be a top seeded team next season. So fight for 8th (probably fail again) or a chance at an Elite prospect..

seems simple to me
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Apr 18 @ 10:51 AM ET
I don't see why its so difficult to grasp that I would like to be in a Lottery position instead of 8-10th if those are the options. I dont think anyone will argue that the leafs are not going to be a top seeded team next season. So fight for 8th (probably fail again) or a chance at an Elite prospect..

seems simple to me

- senstroll



So IF you were the GM of the leafs, your "goal" for the 2012 2013 season would be to end up in the bottom five (again) for a shot at an Elite prospect.


Therefore you would have to bring the rest of management, the coaching staff and the players on board with your vision to bring the leafs back to a Cup competitive level.

Do you honestly think anyone, beside yourself, would sign on to a plan like that?
senstroll
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Apr 18 @ 11:06 AM ET
So IF you were the GM of the leafs, your "goal" for the 2012 2013 season would be to end up in the bottom five (again) for a shot at an Elite prospect.


Therefore you would have to bring the rest of management, the coaching staff and the players on board with your vision to bring the leafs back to a Cup competitive level.

Do you honestly think anyone, beside yourself, would sign on to a plan like that?

- Doppleganger


Teams and Fans buy into a rebuild all the time, the sens just went through a similar phase, BM got a vote of confidence for it, fans were excited about it, when BB took over I was 100% ready for a tear down and rebuild..

If Burke said.. what were tried didnt work, we have a 5th overall pick this year, we are going to move out a lot of dead weight and build from the draft on top of our current core. I say sign me up

I feel like I am taking crazy pills... arguing this
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Apr 18 @ 11:29 AM ET
I'm SHOCKED that Phaneuf has become divisive presence in the locker room. I would have thought that after he pulled the same thing in Calgary he would have learnt his lesson.

Great choice for Captain eh!

- Doppleganger



Funny. I've never heard this.
Mr_Squeaks
Ottawa Senators
Location: Location: Location: Glitch in
Joined: 06.26.2006

Apr 18 @ 12:47 PM ET
If Burke said.. what were tried didnt work, we have a 5th overall pick this year, we are going to move out a lot of dead weight and build from the draft on top of our current core. I say sign me up

I feel like I am taking crazy pills... arguing this

- senstroll


It seems pretty simple - you do not tank. You simply allow your prospects to play at the AHL level to aid in their development. You ice an NHL team that helps you use up the final years on any remaining troublesome contracts. That team probably doesn't fare well. You wind up a lottery team while the team's fans watch their AHL affiliate (full of NHL prospects) doing quite well - IN THE SAME CITY. A great draft pick, an extra year of growth and development for your prospects, and next year come back with a young but confident team. You're making sense to me, to be honest and objective...
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Apr 18 @ 1:23 PM ET
Funny. I've never heard this.
- prock



From March 30, Toronto Star
Dave Feschuk

"Whether Phaneuf, best known for his Day One command of the dressing-room stereo, can be a voice for team-wide harmony remains an open question. Some close to the team believe, citing Phaneuf’s absence from Sundin’s shindigs, that he is tone deaf to what’s expected of the playing face of a heritage club, not to mention unwilling to ask for advice. Many found it curious in this week’s blowout loss that Phaneuf passed on chances to fight the likes of long-time nemesis Scott Hartnell and instead turned his late-game wrath on Flyers rookie Brayden Schenn. Schenn’s brother, Luke, of course, is Toronto’s longest serving defenceman. The tete-a-tete fuelled long-held speculation that the tension that exists between Phaneuf and Toronto’s Schenn is a cancerous dressing-room presence. It also had more than one former Leaf questioning the captain’s wherewithal."
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Apr 18 @ 1:33 PM ET
Teams and Fans buy into a rebuild all the time, the sens just went through a similar phase, BM got a vote of confidence for it, fans were excited about it, when BB took over I was 100% ready for a tear down and rebuild..

If Burke said.. what were tried didnt work, we have a 5th overall pick this year, we are going to move out a lot of dead weight and build from the draft on top of our current core. I say sign me up

I feel like I am taking crazy pills... arguing this

- senstroll


I agree 100%. I believe that Leaf fans want an elite team that can compete for he Cup. Toronto fans are highly sophisticated in their hockey knowledge. If they had a young team like Edmonton the fans would be fully supportive of a rebuild that was consistent with what was best to develop the kids. The idea that Leaf fans don't have the patience wait is ludicrous. This argument is a myth advanced by the media trying to hype an easy sports news line.

In terms of your specific comments I found them both stimulating and praiseworthy. Let me be the first to welcome you to the dark side. I promise that you are going to feel very good about your choice.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Apr 18 @ 1:33 PM ET
Teams and Fans buy into a rebuild all the time, the sens just went through a similar phase, BM got a vote of confidence for it, fans were excited about it, when BB took over I was 100% ready for a tear down and rebuild..

If Burke said.. what were tried didnt work, we have a 5th overall pick this year, we are going to move out a lot of dead weight and build from the draft on top of our current core. I say sign me up

I feel like I am taking crazy pills... arguing this

- senstroll


I agree 100%. I believe that Leaf fans want an elite team that can compete for the Cup. Toronto fans are highly sophisticated in their hockey knowledge. If they had a young team like Edmonton the fans would be fully supportive of a rebuild that was consistent with what was best to develop the kids. The idea that Leaf fans don't have the patience to wait is ludicrous. This argument is a myth advanced by the media trying to hype an easy sports news line.

In terms of your specific comments I found them both stimulating and praiseworthy. Let me be the first to welcome you to the dark side. I promise that you are going to feel very good about your choice.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Apr 18 @ 1:33 PM ET
Oops, dp
senstroll
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Apr 18 @ 1:48 PM ET
I agree 100%. I believe that Leaf fans want an elite team that can compete for he Cup. Toronto fans are highly sophisticated in their hockey knowledge. If they had a young team like Edmonton the fans would be fully supportive of a rebuild that was consistent with what was best to develop the kids. The idea that Leaf fans don't have the patience wait is ludicrous. This argument is a myth advanced by the media trying to hype an easy sports news line.

In terms of your specific comments I found them both stimulating and praiseworthy. Let me be the first to welcome you to the dark side. I promise that you are going to feel very good about your choice.

- spatso


I have always been in favor of drafting instead of trading picks, tank a few seasons..whatever... I just wish it started 3 years ago..but whatever start now
nightmare3020
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Windsor Area, ON
Joined: 08.23.2006

Apr 18 @ 1:57 PM ET
From March 30, Toronto Star
Dave Feschuk

- spatso

sorry but who?

joe blow from down the street reporting doesnt count
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Apr 18 @ 3:03 PM ET
sorry but who?

joe blow from down the street reporting doesnt count

- nightmare3020


Have you heard anything of this before?
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619, 620, 621, 622, 623, 624, 625, 626, 627, 628, 629, 630, 631, 632, 633, 634, 635, 636, 637, 638, 639, 640, 641, 642, 643, 644, 645, 646, 647, 648, 649, 650, 651, 652, 653, 654, 655, 656, 657, 658, 659, 660, 661, 662, 663, 664, 665, 666, 667, 668, 669, 670, 671, 672, 673, 674, 675, 676, 677, 678, 679, 680, 681, 682, 683, 684, 685, 686, 687, 688, 689, 690, 691, 692, 693, 694, 695, 696, 697, 698, 699, 700, 701, 702, 703, 704, 705, 706, 707, 708, 709, 710, 711, 712, 713, 714, 715, 716, 717, 718, 719, 720, 721, 722, 723, 724, 725, 726, 727, 728, 729, 730, 731, 732, 733, 734, 735, 736, 737, 738, 739, 740, 741, 742, 743, 744, 745, 746, 747, 748, 749, 750, 751, 752, 753, 754, 755, 756, 757, 758, 759, 760, 761, 762, 763, 764, 765, 766, 767, 768, 769, 770, 771, 772, 773, 774, 775, 776, 777, 778, 779, 780, 781, 782, 783, 784, 785, 786, 787, 788, 789, 790, 791, 792, 793, 794, 795, 796, 797, 798, 799, 800, 801, 802, 803, 804, 805, 806, 807, 808, 809, 810, 811, 812, 813, 814, 815, 816, 817, 818, 819, 820, 821, 822, 823, 824, 825, 826, 827, 828, 829, 830, 831, 832, 833, 834, 835, 836, 837, 838, 839, 840, 841, 842, 843, 844, 845, 846, 847, 848, 849, 850, 851, 852, 853, 854, 855, 856, 857, 858, 859, 860, 861, 862, 863, 864, 865, 866, 867, 868, 869, 870, 871, 872, 873, 874, 875, 876, 877, 878, 879, 880, 881, 882, 883, 884, 885, 886, 887, 888, 889, 890, 891, 892, 893, 894, 895, 896, 897, 898, 899, 900, 901, 902, 903, 904, 905, 906, 907, 908, 909, 910, 911, 912, 913, 914, 915, 916, 917, 918, 919, 920, 921, 922, 923, 924, 925, 926, 927, 928, 929, 930, 931, 932, 933, 934, 935, 936, 937, 938, 939, 940, 941, 942, 943, 944, 945, 946, 947, 948, 949, 950, 951, 952, 953, 954, 955, 956, 957, 958, 959, 960, 961, 962, 963, 964, 965, 966, 967, 968, 969, 970, 971, 972, 973, 974, 975, 976, 977, 978, 979, 980, 981, 982, 983, 984, 985, 986, 987, 988, 989, 990, 991, 992, 993, 994, 995, 996, 997, 998, 999, 1000, 1001, 1002, 1003, 1004, 1005, 1006, 1007, 1008, 1009, 1010, 1011, 1012, 1013, 1014, 1015, 1016, 1017, 1018, 1019, 1020, 1021, 1022, 1023, 1024, 1025, 1026, 1027, 1028, 1029, 1030, 1031, 1032, 1033, 1034, 1035, 1036, 1037, 1038, 1039, 1040, 1041, 1042, 1043, 1044, 1045, 1046, 1047, 1048, 1049, 1050, 1051, 1052, 1053, 1054, 1055, 1056, 1057, 1058, 1059, 1060, 1061, 1062, 1063, 1064, 1065, 1066, 1067, 1068, 1069, 1070, 1071, 1072, 1073, 1074, 1075, 1076, 1077, 1078, 1079, 1080, 1081, 1082, 1083, 1084, 1085, 1086, 1087, 1088, 1089, 1090, 1091, 1092, 1093, 1094, 1095, 1096, 1097, 1098, 1099, 1100, 1101, 1102, 1103, 1104, 1105, 1106, 1107, 1108, 1109, 1110, 1111, 1112, 1113, 1114, 1115, 1116, 1117, 1118, 1119, 1120, 1121, 1122, 1123, 1124, 1125, 1126, 1127, 1128, 1129, 1130, 1131, 1132, 1133, 1134, 1135, 1136, 1137, 1138, 1139, 1140, 1141, 1142, 1143, 1144, 1145, 1146, 1147, 1148, 1149, 1150, 1151, 1152, 1153, 1154, 1155, 1156  Next