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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
Author Message
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Sep 2 @ 8:35 AM ET


Are you arguing that Ottawa would be a better team, on the ice, with any of the D men they've let leave the team, instead of Phaneauf?

- D0PPELGANGER




They won't be any better, if at all, short term (this season), and long-term (most likely anything past this season), they'll be worse, no doubt. As bad as his contract is, it'll be getting worse and worse with each passing year. He'll be 32 by the time this season in done.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Sep 2 @ 8:37 AM ET
The magic number most hear is the 300 game mark ,Zibby is right at that number.Now i never said he cant have a better season than what he has had to date .But he isnt a top line center ,he hasnt shown anything to this point that he will become one .Add in his contract coming up next season ,and you can see why Ottawa made their choice to move on from him .Brassard ,comes in at 3.5 million in actual salary for the next three seasons ,which should buy enough develoment time for the next crop of hopefuls for us in Brown and White
- top shelf 15



Silly me.


Which is exactly what he is ,kid is pretty much done developing

- top shelf 15
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Sep 2 @ 8:40 AM ET
You can focus on money, budget, cap and all off ice issues ......... because there is not much else for leaf fans to dwell on.

I focus on how the team(s) play on the ice, and Phaneauf is a better D man than any that the Sens have departed ways with over this year.

Therefore the one ice performance of the Senators has improved, and will continue to improve for the foreseeable future.

Are you arguing that Ottawa would be a better team, on the ice, with any of the D men they've let leave the team, instead of Phaneauf?

- D0PPELGANGER


Phaneuf deal was good deal for both teams. I think most Leaf fans understand that too much was expected of him in Toronto. He is a great partner for Ceci on a second pairing behind Karlsson and Methot. Otawa's D improved immediately with the arrival of Phaneuf. But, I don't think we have seen the full benefit of the deal yet. We will see great improvement coming from the benefits of training camp and Guy Boucher putting in place a stronger concept of team D
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Sep 2 @ 8:47 AM ET
Silly me.
- prock
Zibby has had all sorts of opportunity to play in Ottawa,s top 6 .And we watched our 3rd line center out preform him nightly last season,after Turris went down .His 4 point spike over last season....came with him getting a full min and half more ice time .While tying up two very good wingers in Ryan and Hoffman.I have been calling for him to be moved all offseason ,so i may not be the most objective .I personally had seen enough ,to call me doing a 180 is more than fine. As long as i can say the same about everybody here whenever a prized prospect,fails to live up to the hype .Which is pretty common
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Sep 2 @ 8:55 AM ET
Phaneuf deal was good deal for both teams. I think most Leaf fans understand that too much was expected of him in Toronto. He is a great partner for Ceci on a second pairing behind Karlsson and Methot. Otawa's D improved immediately with the arrival of Phaneuf. But, I don't think we have seen the full benefit of the deal yet. We will see great improvement coming from the benefits of training camp and Guy Boucher putting in place a stronger concept of team D
- spatso




Second pairing was too much for him, eh?
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Sep 2 @ 8:55 AM ET
Zibby has had all sorts of opportunity to play in Ottawa,s top 6 .And we watched our 3rd line center out preform him nightly last season,after Turris went down .His 4 point spike over last season....came with him getting a full min and half more ice time .While tying up two very good wingers in Ryan and Hoffman.I have been calling for him to be moved all offseason ,so i may not be the most objective .I personally had seen enough ,to call me doing a 180 is more than fine. As long as i can say the same about everybody here whenever a prized prospect,fails to live up to the hype .Which is pretty common
- top shelf 15


Zibanejad could not take a pass from Karlsson and hit the open man with a quick second pass. He had a good shot off the incoming pass. But, that is not good enough. Watch Brassard take and make a pass. This is the skill Dorion and Boucher wanted.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Sep 2 @ 8:55 AM ET
Zibby has had all sorts of opportunity to play in Ottawa,s top 6 .And we watched our 3rd line center out preform him nightly last season,after Turris went down .His 4 point spike over last season....came with him getting a full min and half more ice time .While tying up two very good wingers in Ryan and Hoffman.I have been calling for him to be moved all offseason ,so i may not be the most objective .I personally had seen enough ,to call me doing a 180 is more than fine. As long as i can say the same about everybody here whenever a prized prospect,fails to live up to the hype .Which is pretty common
- top shelf 15



Very different story than you were singing in June.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Sep 2 @ 9:02 AM ET
Second pairing was too much for him, eh?
- prock


I believe this is not unlike the Larry Murphy experience in Toronto. The performance level is entirely compromised by unrealistic expectations. Phaneuf was never as good as Toronto media made him out to be in the beginning. He is not as bad as fans made him out to be last year. His front end loaded contract is actually pretty sweet for the Sens and the buy out options are very good in the last few years of the deal.
lumlums
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: I think it's fitting that NJ won the lotto since they lost the Hall/Larsson trade so badly! - JLO961, AB
Joined: 06.25.2011

Sep 2 @ 9:09 AM ET
I believe this is not unlike the Larry Murphy experience in Toronto. The performance level is entirely compromised by unrealistic expectations. Phaneuf was never as good as Toronto media made him out to be in the beginning. He is not as bad as fans made him out to be last year. His front end loaded contract is actually pretty sweet for the Sens and the buy out options are very good in the last few years of the deal.
- spatso


"This guy is such a good fit that I've already considered what his buyout would look like".





spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Sep 2 @ 9:12 AM ET
"This guy is such a good fit that I've already considered what his buyout would look like".






- lumlums



Welcome to the modern NHL. Buyout options are now an important part of any contract negotiation or trade deal.
systemtool
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Real men always have to poo, ON
Joined: 09.12.2007

Sep 2 @ 9:41 AM ET
You can focus on money, budget, cap and all off ice issues ......... because there is not much else for leaf fans to dwell on.

I focus on how the team(s) play on the ice, and Phaneauf is a better D man than any that the Sens have departed ways with over this year.

Therefore the one ice performance of the Senators has improved, and will continue to improve for the foreseeable future.

Are you arguing that Ottawa would be a better team, on the ice, with any of the D men they've let leave the team, instead of Phaneauf?

- D0PPELGANGER


I'm arguing that he isn't worth his salary and term and that he's a decent defenseman that won't make a difference to a non playoff team. He needs solid defensive structure around him to succeed and be effective and it's why he failed in Toronto and will fail in Ottawa. Except now he's older and more expensive than when he first came to the Leafs. Long term the Sens keep trading futures for immediate help to bandaid a bad team. The way the Leafs used to do things when t was a poop show. It simply doesn't work. Which is why getting Phaneuf to help them make the playoffs only led to missing the playoffs. No actual improvement to the team or its defensive woes. At all.
systemtool
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Real men always have to poo, ON
Joined: 09.12.2007

Sep 2 @ 9:42 AM ET
"This guy is such a good fit that I've already considered what his buyout would look like".






- lumlums

Tumbleweed
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: tenav for drouin. lol @ canucks
Joined: 03.14.2014

Sep 2 @ 10:37 AM ET
Biggest thing that holds us back TBH ,not managment but ownership
- top shelf 15


How does it feel knowing with melnyk running things that the sens will be nothing more than also-rans year after year?
Tumbleweed
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: tenav for drouin. lol @ canucks
Joined: 03.14.2014

Sep 2 @ 10:50 AM ET
Sens fans are really pumped about the coming season. Bringing in Brassard as a second line center and Chris Kelly as a fourth line center makes them much stronger and more experienced down the middle. Ottawa has acted in the belief that they need to improve on their special teams. They are top 10 when playing 5 on 5.

The second important factor is understanding that all of Dorion's changes are following through on the idea of making this team entirely in Karlsson's image. Every move starting with Murray's trade for Phaneuf, Dorion's hiring of Boucher, trading for Brassard and signing of Kelly are entirely about this team being shaped around Karlsson's skill.

- spatso


We are moving into stage II of a typical red koolaid summer. Fans are beginning to notice the stories being floated that Chabot might not be fit enough or ready for NHL prime time. Sens are a purgatory team, they are exactly like the jfj/burke Toronto crew, but without the money.

But Sens fans are delusional hockey fans and now that the silly summer chatter is winding down, they are still not getting around to a more balanced level of hockey discussion. We will see the Stage III early season euphoria when they win a few games at the beginning of the season and the Ottawa based media predicts good things for them. But the Stage III crash into despair will come like clockwork in early December. Stage IV acceptance of reality will include some anger and frustration but it is not long lasting. And, come early March, Stage V starts again with a high degree of hopefulness as speculation of the money saving moves gets ramped up and fans discuss the great potential of the 3% odds for the impending lottery and draft.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Sep 2 @ 11:00 AM ET
We are moving into stage II of a typical red koolaid summer. Fans are beginning to notice the stories being floated that Chabot might not be fit enough or ready for NHL prime time. Sens are a purgatory team, they are exactly like the jfj/burke Toronto crew, but without the money.

But Sens fans are delusional hockey fans and now that the silly summer chatter is winding down, they are still not getting around to a more balanced level of hockey discussion. We will see the Stage III early season euphoria when they win a few games at the beginning of the season and the Ottawa based media predicts good things for them. But the Stage III crash into despair will come like clockwork in early December. Stage IV acceptance of reality will include some anger and frustration but it is not long lasting. And, come early March, Stage V starts again with a high degree of hopefulness as speculation of the money saving moves gets ramped up and fans discuss the great potential of the 3% odds for the impending lottery and draft.

- Tumbleweed


I find this to be pretty accurate, however, you forgot the obligatory scapegoat coach firing and unhappy captain.
D0PPELGANGER
Ottawa Senators
Location: Ottawa, ON
Joined: 05.06.2015

Sep 2 @ 11:05 AM ET
Second pairing was too much for him, eh?
- prock


So you claim Dion was a 2nd pairing D man, in his last two seasons in toronto.

I see that his ATOI, in toronto for 2013-14, 2014-15 & 2015-16 was an average 23 mins per game.

His overall average, while a leaf, was 24:22 mins per game. So roughly a drop on 1 min 22 secs in his last 3 seasons with the leafs.

So that looks like 1st pairing to me, but as I don't follow the leafs as you do, will have to take your word for it.

But, could you tell me which two other D men were logging more ATOI than Dion was, for those last two or three seasons?
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Sep 2 @ 11:11 AM ET
So you claim Dion was a 2nd pairing D man, in his last two seasons in toronto.

I see that his ATOI, in toronto for 2013-14, 2014-15 & 2015-16 was an average 23 mins per game.

His overall average, while a leaf, was 24:22 mins per game. So roughly a drop on 1 min 22 secs in his last 3 seasons with the leafs.

So that looks like 1st pairing to me, but as I don't follow the leafs as you do, will have to take your word for it.

But, could you tell me which two other D men were logging more ATOI than Dion was, for those last two or three seasons?

- D0PPELGANGER


He played second pairing at even strength. he became the second pairing guy they'd march out on the PP, while other Dman took more of the heavy lifting.

however, in his final season, he was 3rd in overall ATOI, behind Morgan Rielly and Matt Hunwick. He was 4th in ATOI at ES, behind Rielly, Hunwick, Gardiner.

In his second last season, at ES, he was behind Gardiner, Polak, and Brewer.

His third last season was really the last one he was taking on full number one dman duties. Pretty hard not to see his role on the team steadily diminishing across those 3 seasons. Gardiner started to get relied upon more and more, and Babcock took Rielly, and made him his number 1 dman last season. Apart from that, Gardiner was still relied upon more than Phaneuf. Phaneuf had basically become a second pairing dman/PP specialist.
D0PPELGANGER
Ottawa Senators
Location: Ottawa, ON
Joined: 05.06.2015

Sep 2 @ 11:17 AM ET
I'm arguing that he isn't worth his salary and term and that he's a decent defenseman that won't make a difference to a non playoff team. He needs solid defensive structure around him to succeed and be effective and it's why he failed in Toronto and will fail in Ottawa. Except now he's older and more expensive than when he first came to the Leafs. Long term the Sens keep trading futures for immediate help to bandaid a bad team. The way the Leafs used to do things when t was a poop show. It simply doesn't work. Which is why getting Phaneuf to help them make the playoffs only led to missing the playoffs. No actual improvement to the team or its defensive woes. At all.
- systemtool



well as I stated before, I'll let you worry about money, contracts etc ....... and I'll just focus on how the team plays on the ice. You also assume that he was bought in "to make the playoffs" which is another myth leaf fans like you continue to push.

Ottawa was sitting in fourth last in the conference and they had about a 15% chance of making the playoffs. Only a leaf fan would interpret the nine player trade as getting a player to "help make the playoffs".

http://www.sportsclubstat...tern/Atlantic/Ottawa.html

The trade was all about Ottawa unloading players and contracts they did not want, and the same for the leafs.


"We don't expect him to come in here to be a saviour," Senators GM Bryan Murray said. "We expect him to come here and just be the hockey player he is."

So keep using that Myth about Dion being acquired to "help make the playoffs" if that what it takes to make you fell good about your leafs dismal season, and the next few dismal seasons to come.

Ottawa sees Dion as a playing partner for Ceci, and we'll see how that works out this season, and occasionally we'll take a peek in the rear-view mirror to see how far back the leafs are.
D0PPELGANGER
Ottawa Senators
Location: Ottawa, ON
Joined: 05.06.2015

Sep 2 @ 11:21 AM ET
He played second pairing at even strength. he became the second pairing guy they'd march out on the PP, while other Dman took more of the heavy lifting.

however, in his final season, he was 3rd in overall ATOI, behind Morgan Rielly and Matt Hunwick. He was 4th in ATOI at ES, behind Rielly, Hunwick, Gardiner.

In his second last season, at ES, he was behind Gardiner, Polak, and Brewer.

His third last season was really the last one he was taking on full number one dman duties. Pretty hard not to see his role on the team steadily diminishing across those 3 seasons. Gardiner started to get relied upon more and more, and Babcock took Rielly, and made him his number 1 dman last season. Apart from that, Gardiner was still relied upon more than Phaneuf. Phaneuf had basically become a second pairing dman/PP specialist.

- prock



Thanks for the info ............ so can I say that based on your observations, that Ottawa acquired exactly what they were looking for, a second pairing d man to play with Ceci?
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Sep 2 @ 11:21 AM ET
well as I stated before, I'll let you worry about money, contracts etc ....... and I'll just focus on how the team plays on the ice. You also assume that he was bought in "to make the playoffs" which is another myth leaf fans like you continue to push.

Ottawa was sitting in fourth last in the conference and they had about a 15% chance of making the playoffs. Only a leaf fan would interpret the nine player trade as getting a player to "help make the playoffs".

http://www.sportsclubstat...tern/Atlantic/Ottawa.html

The trade was all about Ottawa unloading players and contracts they did not want, and the same for the leafs.


"We don't expect him to come in here to be a saviour," Senators GM Bryan Murray said. "We expect him to come here and just be the hockey player he is."

So keep using that Myth about Dion being acquired to "help make the playoffs" if that what it takes to make you fell good about your leafs dismal season, and the next few dismal seasons to come.

Ottawa sees Dion as a playing partner for Ceci, and we'll see how that works out this season, and occasionally we'll take a peek in the rear-view mirror to see how far back the leafs are.

- D0PPELGANGER


Don't bother with the rear-view mirror. We're going in opposite directions. We've already gotten to your next destination.
AustonPowers
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Supreme Manager of the Johnny Boychuk to EDM Thread
Joined: 07.14.2016

Sep 2 @ 11:22 AM ET
well as I stated before, I'll let you worry about money, contracts etc ....... and I'll just focus on how the team plays on the ice. You also assume that he was bought in "to make the playoffs" which is another myth leaf fans like you continue to push.

Ottawa was sitting in fourth last in the conference and they had about a 15% chance of making the playoffs. Only a leaf fan would interpret the nine player trade as getting a player to "help make the playoffs".

http://www.sportsclubstat...tern/Atlantic/Ottawa.html

The trade was all about Ottawa unloading players and contracts they did not want, and the same for the leafs.


"We don't expect him to come in here to be a saviour," Senators GM Bryan Murray said. "We expect him to come here and just be the hockey player he is."

So keep using that Myth about Dion being acquired to "help make the playoffs" if that what it takes to make you fell good about your leafs dismal season, and the next few dismal seasons to come.

Ottawa sees Dion as a playing partner for Ceci, and we'll see how that works out this season, and occasionally we'll take a peek in the rear-view mirror to see how far back the leafs are.

- D0PPELGANGER

The thing is that Bryan Murray is a lot smarter than you or spatso. We're talking about what the Senators fans believe.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Sep 2 @ 11:22 AM ET
Thanks for the info ............ so can I say that based on your observations, that Ottawa acquired exactly what they were looking for, a second pairing d man to play with Ceci?
- D0PPELGANGER


Sure. I guess. Given his age, you've got that, for this season.
Pecafan Fan
Montreal Canadiens
Location: Pacioretty, c'est mou comme d'la marde - Gilbert Delorme
Joined: 01.20.2009

Sep 2 @ 11:54 AM ET
Leafs
Nucker101
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: All right everyone, listen up
Joined: 09.26.2010

Sep 2 @ 11:56 AM ET
Well......
- burn



This is literally ground zero for both fanbase's trolls

Joined: 12.31.1969

Deleted Post []
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619, 620, 621, 622, 623, 624, 625, 626, 627, 628, 629, 630, 631, 632, 633, 634, 635, 636, 637, 638, 639, 640, 641, 642, 643, 644, 645, 646, 647, 648, 649, 650, 651, 652, 653, 654, 655, 656, 657, 658, 659, 660, 661, 662, 663, 664, 665, 666, 667, 668, 669, 670, 671, 672, 673, 674, 675, 676, 677, 678, 679, 680, 681, 682, 683, 684, 685, 686, 687, 688, 689, 690, 691, 692, 693, 694, 695, 696, 697, 698, 699, 700, 701, 702, 703, 704, 705, 706, 707, 708, 709, 710, 711, 712, 713, 714, 715, 716, 717, 718, 719, 720, 721, 722, 723, 724, 725, 726, 727, 728, 729, 730, 731, 732, 733, 734, 735, 736, 737, 738, 739, 740, 741, 742, 743, 744, 745, 746, 747, 748, 749, 750, 751, 752, 753, 754, 755, 756, 757, 758, 759, 760, 761, 762, 763, 764, 765, 766, 767, 768, 769, 770, 771, 772, 773, 774, 775, 776, 777, 778, 779, 780, 781, 782, 783, 784, 785, 786, 787, 788, 789, 790, 791, 792, 793, 794, 795, 796, 797, 798, 799, 800, 801, 802, 803, 804, 805, 806, 807, 808, 809, 810, 811, 812, 813, 814, 815, 816, 817, 818, 819, 820, 821, 822, 823, 824, 825, 826, 827, 828, 829, 830, 831, 832, 833, 834, 835, 836, 837, 838, 839, 840, 841, 842, 843, 844, 845, 846, 847, 848, 849, 850, 851, 852, 853, 854, 855, 856, 857, 858, 859, 860, 861, 862, 863, 864, 865, 866, 867, 868, 869, 870, 871, 872, 873, 874, 875, 876, 877, 878, 879, 880, 881, 882, 883, 884, 885, 886, 887, 888, 889, 890, 891, 892, 893, 894, 895, 896, 897, 898, 899, 900, 901, 902, 903, 904, 905, 906, 907, 908, 909, 910, 911, 912, 913, 914, 915, 916, 917, 918, 919, 920, 921, 922, 923, 924, 925, 926, 927, 928, 929, 930, 931, 932, 933, 934, 935, 936, 937, 938, 939, 940, 941, 942, 943, 944, 945, 946, 947, 948, 949, 950, 951, 952, 953, 954, 955, 956, 957, 958, 959, 960, 961, 962, 963, 964, 965, 966, 967, 968, 969, 970, 971, 972, 973, 974, 975, 976, 977, 978, 979, 980, 981, 982, 983, 984, 985, 986, 987, 988, 989, 990, 991, 992, 993, 994, 995, 996, 997, 998, 999, 1000, 1001, 1002, 1003, 1004, 1005, 1006, 1007, 1008, 1009, 1010, 1011, 1012, 1013, 1014, 1015, 1016, 1017, 1018, 1019, 1020, 1021, 1022, 1023, 1024, 1025, 1026, 1027, 1028, 1029, 1030, 1031, 1032, 1033, 1034, 1035, 1036, 1037, 1038, 1039, 1040, 1041, 1042, 1043, 1044, 1045, 1046, 1047, 1048, 1049, 1050, 1051, 1052, 1053, 1054, 1055, 1056, 1057, 1058, 1059, 1060, 1061, 1062, 1063, 1064, 1065, 1066, 1067, 1068, 1069, 1070, 1071, 1072, 1073, 1074, 1075, 1076, 1077, 1078, 1079, 1080, 1081, 1082, 1083, 1084, 1085, 1086, 1087, 1088, 1089, 1090, 1091, 1092, 1093, 1094, 1095, 1096, 1097, 1098, 1099, 1100, 1101, 1102, 1103, 1104, 1105, 1106, 1107, 1108, 1109, 1110, 1111, 1112, 1113, 1114, 1115, 1116, 1117, 1118, 1119, 1120, 1121, 1122, 1123, 1124, 1125, 1126, 1127, 1128, 1129, 1130, 1131, 1132, 1133, 1134, 1135, 1136, 1137, 1138, 1139, 1140, 1141, 1142, 1143, 1144, 1145, 1146, 1147, 1148, 1149, 1150, 1151, 1152, 1153, 1154, 1155  Next