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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
Author Message
D0PPELGANGER
Ottawa Senators
Location: Ottawa, ON
Joined: 05.06.2015

Jul 20 @ 3:47 PM ET
I think you'll find if you talk to fans of most other teams, they'll say the same.

And besides, 50 years? the Leafs had some very good stretches, prior to this decade of failure, stretches that they regularly handed the Sens a nice dose of humiliation.

- prock



But just as you've always said when I point out the the Senators made it to the Finals in 2007 ...... "it only matters (going deeper in the playoffs) if you win the cup"

Therefore the few times the leafs went deeper that the Sens (in the playoffs) it did not matter ............. because the standard you and other leaf fans have set is "only winning the Cup counts"
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Jul 20 @ 3:58 PM ET
But just as you've always said when I point out the the Senators made it to the Finals in 2007 ...... "it only matters (going deeper in the playoffs) if you win the cup"

Therefore the few times the leafs went deeper that the Sens (in the playoffs) it did not matter ............. because the standard you and other leaf fans have set is "only winning the Cup counts"

- D0PPELGANGER



well that's kind of besides the point. He made the statement that Leafs fans have been claiming they will be better for 50 years.

In my opinion, a team should always be working to win a cup. You're either contending, and doing what you can to win now, or don't have a realistic shot to win, and should be working to build back up for the future.

Claiming Leaf fans said things like that, when they were legit contenders taking runs at a cup, for a time, is silly. They've had stints of being much better, and among the best in the league, for stretches.

They didn't ultimately succeed, so, like everyone else in the league, it gets forgotten. as it should. just like a decade of losing gets forgotten if this rebuilding attempt wins a cup. just like no one seems to recall that detroit were the dogs of the league for many (20ish) years. so were the Hawks.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Jul 20 @ 4:23 PM ET
that's what you said way back in 2008 (eight years ago) when Brian Burke became the GM of the leafs ................. how'd that work out for you?


- D0PPELGANGER

Burke got das boot because of Liewikie.


If Nonis hadn't been Nonis, Leafs could have been the better team.


But that at least paved the way for the Shanaplan

Ottawa has been pretty stagnant. Like a scuzzy pond filled with mosquitoes and horse flies.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Jul 20 @ 4:49 PM ET
I like what the Leafs are doing.

The senators have the superstar in Karlsson.

I think Karlsson has the talent to carry his team to a Stanley cup.

I think Dorion knows exactly what he is doing and the changes he is making on the edges will have big impact right out of the gate
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Jul 20 @ 5:13 PM ET
I see the Leaf summer hot air show has been in overdrive all day.

Did you check the standings from the end of the season? Are the Leafs still in last place?

But, Leaf fans are having a very strong summer run. The consensus opinion is that the Leafs are the big summer winners. It is so much better when you get to play without the scoreboard.

- spatso



But not you eh? "Sens In a position to make a run"


But only leaf fans (where who?) are talking!!!


burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Jul 20 @ 5:16 PM ET
Brassard and Phaneuf



What an overhaul



Win now


- Cape Breton Bruins



"Leaf fans talking a good game in the summer...... What did the scoreboard say"


Unreal....
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Jul 20 @ 5:18 PM ET
I like what the Leafs are doing.

The senators have the superstar in Karlsson.

I think Karlsson has the talent to carry his team to a Stanley cup.

I think Dorion knows exactly what he is doing and the changes he is making on the edges will have big impact right out of the gate

- spatso



Da (frank).....
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Jul 20 @ 5:42 PM ET
I like what the Leafs are doing.

The senators have the superstar in Karlsson.

I think Karlsson has the talent to carry his team to a Stanley cup.

I think Dorion knows exactly what he is doing and the changes he is making on the edges will have big impact right out of the gate

- spatso

No one player can carry a team to the cup... you need a strong team, with elite talent leading the way.


Karlsson is elite(offensively), but the rest of the team is below average, without many prospects for improvement because management won't spend. And the existing prospects for improvement are being wasted on lateral moves like the Brassard for Zibby deal, where the Sens gave up a second for a nearly identical player, who's 5 years older than what they already had.
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Jul 20 @ 7:30 PM ET
No one player can carry a team to the cup... you need a strong team, with elite talent leading the way.


Karlsson is elite(offensively), but the rest of the team is below average, without many prospects for improvement because management won't spend. And the existing prospects for improvement are being wasted on lateral moves like the Brassard for Zibby deal, where the Sens gave up a second for a nearly identical player, who's 5 years older than what they already had.

- Feeling Glucky?




What? What about all those teams with only one elite player.....you know the ones that had one elite player and they rearranged the 4th liners and went from non playoff team to cup. Happens all the time.

But yeah, the sens fans not partaking in "summer talk"


spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Jul 20 @ 9:54 PM ET
What? What about all those teams with only one elite player.....you know the ones that had one elite player and they rearranged the 4th liners and went from non playoff team to cup. Happens all the time.

But yeah, the sens fans not partaking in "summer talk"



- burn


Look, I express my opinion. It is entirely unnecessary to my point if you agree with me or not. I believe what I believe. I have no difficulty being critical of Sens decisions and I have never been reluctant to say so. I am impatient with fans who criticize other teams to make themselves feel good about their own problems. It seems ludicrous that nobody has looked at the obvious and gone back to review the beginning of this thread. At that time the Leafs were a bad team getting worse. They are an even worse team today and should sink even further next year.

But Leaf fans try to find hope by finding other teams, players or situations that enable them to chant we are not the worst. But, it does not appear to defeat the clarity of a scoreboard.
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Jul 20 @ 9:58 PM ET
Look, I express my opinion. It is entirely unnecessary to my point if you agree with me or not. I believe what I believe. I have no difficulty being critical of Sens decisions and I have never been reluctant to say so. I am impatient with fans who criticize other teams to make themselves feel good about their own problems. It seems ludicrous that nobody has looked at the obvious and gone back to review the beginning of this thread. At that time the Leafs were a bad team getting worse. They are an even worse team today and should sink even further next year.

But Leaf fans try to find hope by finding other teams, players or situations that enable them to chant we are not the worst. But, it does not appear to defeat the clarity of a scoreboard.

- spatso




Is this an act?
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Jul 21 @ 6:31 AM ET
What? What about all those teams with only one elite player.....you know the ones that had one elite player and they rearranged the 4th liners and went from non playoff team to cup. Happens all the time.

But yeah, the sens fans not partaking in "summer talk"



- burn


Any team that ranks in the top 10 in scoring has skill. The hardest thing to do in the NHL is score goals. Sens have lots of skill. But, winning is based on stopping the other team from scoring and your being able to score more in a 60 minute period. These are not mutually exclusive concepts. The second part is about coaching, character and commitment.

The Sens have a good deal of skill. Will they persevere under Boucher and show the character to become a contending team? We will see.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Jul 21 @ 6:36 AM ET
Is this an act?
- burn


How many years will it take for you to appreciate my underlying belief is that the ultimate arbitrator in all things hockey is the scoreboard. The Leafs are a last place team. They will repeat this year as a last place team. What part of that do you not understand?

I entirely concede that it is the right approach for a team that has been the worst value of any sports team in North America for the last 10 years (ESPN). But, wake me up when the Leafs actually produce a score board result.

http://www.thehockeynews....ranchise-in-sports-again/
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Jul 21 @ 6:46 AM ET
How many years will it take for you to appreciate my underlying belief is that the ultimate arbitrator in all things hockey is the scoreboard. The Leafs are a last place team. They will repeat this year as a last place team. What part of that do you not understand?

I entirely concede that it is the right approach for a team that has been the worst value of any sports team in North America for the last 10 years (ESPN). But, wake me up when the Leafs actually produce a score board result.

http://www.thehockeynews....ranchise-in-sports-again/

- spatso



Why do you bother responding if you aren't going to address what you are quoting?


Why do you criticize leaf fans for "summer talk" (still have yet to see the evidence of this) and then one sentence later claim that the sens are going from a non playoff team to contender with no significant improvement? Why do you criticize leaf fans for ripping the sens "to make themselves feel better" and then one sentence later you do the exact thing you are chastising others for? How do you not see this? I ask again, is this an act? Is it a joke?
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Jul 21 @ 7:32 AM ET
Any team that ranks in the top 10 in scoring has skill. The hardest thing to do in the NHL is score goals. Sens have lots of skill. But, winning is based on stopping the other team from scoring and your being able to score more in a 60 minute period. These are not mutually exclusive concepts. The second part is about coaching, character and commitment.

The Sens have a good deal of skill. Will they persevere under Boucher and show the character to become a contending team? We will see.

- spatso

So, when the Leafs were one of the top scoring teams, you think they were in a better position than the Sens?


It's funny how our high offense came with our worst coach...
Pecafan Fan
Montreal Canadiens
Location: Pacioretty, c'est mou comme d'la marde - Gilbert Delorme
Joined: 01.20.2009

Jul 21 @ 7:50 AM ET
did someone point out to our buddy spatso that the sens also allowed 241 goals against? Good for the 6th worse record in the league?
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Jul 21 @ 8:01 AM ET
did someone point out to our buddy spatso that the sens also allowed 241 goals against? Good for the 6th worse record in the league?
- Pecafan Fan



defense wins championships changing role players on a non playoff team wins championships


#spatso summer talk
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Jul 21 @ 8:07 AM ET
did someone point out to our buddy spatso that the sens also allowed 241 goals against? Good for the 6th worse record in the league?
- Pecafan Fan

Apparently this isn't based on player skill, just coaching.


I assume he believes this because Karlsson possesses no defensive skill.
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Jul 21 @ 8:49 AM ET
did someone point out to our buddy spatso that the sens also allowed 241 goals against? Good for the 6th worse record in the league?
- Pecafan Fan
Biggest issue really ,hopefully having a much more rounder and experienced top 4 .Along with a much better puck possession group of forwards we can back down from that number .I dont ever see us being a defensive club .But even if we can move up into the middle of the pack ,i think we should be a playoff team
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Jul 21 @ 8:52 AM ET
i never said it was chump change, I said it was nowhere near the $28M to $77M discrepancy you claimed.

Two years earlier, when the Sens had about $30M, the Leafs were a little under $50. Again, nowhere near what you claim.

- prock
So around a 20 million dollar cushion every season ??That,s a pretty big deal, that,s two or three top end players in F/A ,we never had a chance
D0PPELGANGER
Ottawa Senators
Location: Ottawa, ON
Joined: 05.06.2015

Jul 21 @ 8:57 AM ET
I like what the Leafs are doing.

The senators have the superstar in Karlsson.

I think Karlsson has the talent to carry his team to a Stanley cup.

I think Dorion knows exactly what he is doing and the changes he is making on the edges will have big impact right out of the gate

- spatso



Let's be honest. Any team that wins a Cup has done so with more than one "superstar" on their roster. Karlsson is a big part of the formula, but he cannot do it all by himself.
systemtool
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Real men always have to poo, ON
Joined: 09.12.2007

Jul 21 @ 9:32 AM ET
did someone point out to our buddy spatso that the sens also allowed 241 goals against? Good for the 6th worse record in the league?
- Pecafan Fan


Maybe Brassard or Phaneuf can play goal.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Jul 21 @ 9:36 AM ET
Let's be honest. Any team that wins a Cup has done so with more than one "superstar" on their roster. Karlsson is a big part of the formula, but he cannot do it all by himself.
- D0PPELGANGER

whoa. a reasonable post.



Now... without the willingness to spend money, and making deals that seem to be handicapping them furhter cap-wise, in order to save cash, coupled with medicore finishes that don't give them a good draft pick- along with trading 2nds for "win now" moves....


Where do you see the second and third "superstar" calibre players coming from?
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Jul 21 @ 10:03 AM ET
So around a 20 million dollar cushion every season ??That,s a pretty big deal, that,s two or three top end players in F/A ,we never had a chance
- top shelf 15



Calm down chief. I know $20M is a massive difference maker. That's why just about every cup winning team pre-cap was in the top 6 or 8 in spending every year.

I disagreed with your statement that the Leafs were spending $50M more. At it's height, it was $20M more. Prior to the numbers I quoted, it was actually smaller. More like $10M to $15M.
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Jul 21 @ 10:33 AM ET
Maybe Brassard or Phaneuf can play goal.
- systemtool
Because you mention, that our goalie isnt good over and over doesnt make it a correct statement
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