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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
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top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Jan 5 @ 8:54 AM ET
for 3 years they played in the same league, 05 to 07 in the bchl, and 07/08 in the NCAA. In every year very similar production. Given how common knowledge it is turris hasn't really progressed since being drafted, I'd say its reasonable to say if he can pick it back up, in a couple of years he can maybe catch back up to Bozak.
- prock

You are intitled to your oppinion and it might be right,but again iam no expert i watch as a fan ,and i dont have the years of nhl service gauging young players that BM would have so if he says that KT is a good player to have thats good enough for me
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Jan 5 @ 10:09 AM ET
You are intitled to your oppinion and it might be right,but again iam no expert i watch as a fan ,and i dont have the years of nhl service gauging young players that BM would have so if he says that KT is a good player to have thats good enough for me
- top shelf 15



You can trust your Ottawa scouts.... What makes you think the Phoenix scouts and coaches weren't well aware of what Turris' potential and his issues may be?
senstroll
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Jan 5 @ 10:11 AM ET
How are we not rebuilding properly??We used a prospect and a pick to get a young player that can fill a role now ,and has enough upside to be core piece for the future.

We still have our first and some tradable veteran pieces to trade for more picks if need be.Ottawa,s youth has and will be brought along slowly,we have tons of prospects and young players in the pipeline with more coming next season .And while none look to be of the franchise superstar variety,ottawa will start to have tremendous depth of very good to decent players that will make the team that much better .

Add to this the loads of cap space we will have moving forward ,by developing our depth instead of trying to create it, by spending it on marginal tallent that always seems to be overpriced in the Fa market.This will leave ottawa in good position to make aquisition,s without worry of salary cap implications, thus leaving ottawa a young competitive team with lots of flexabilty and room to grow and get better

- top shelf 15


The Bolded comment basically explains this, you sound like leaf fans from 2004-2008.

They had a great asset in DR, a high end prospect, where experts say the ceiling was very high. On top of that they threw in a 2nd? Seems like an overpayment to me. KT for DR would have been too much imo. Why not keep your assets, develop them, not rush a quicker turnaround. Trades like getting Anderson, Filatov and Turris, those are ones to get better results now...the first 2 have not worked out like expected

For example, what if the Sens hold onto DR and he progresses like Karlson, look at the value of Karlson now, they could get 3 Turris's and a 1st for him. They have Spezza as the #1, pick up another cheaper #2 to fill the void until M. Zib. is ready to step in. At the same time the sens are probably finishing lower in the standing and getting another high end prospect.

anyawys seems to be a difference of opinion on rebuilding...if you love how Murray is doing it great...
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Jan 5 @ 11:18 AM ET
When has Kyle Turris EVER shown he is capable of filling the second line centre role?

Just face it. It was a terrible trade. Murray basically just threw away what many considered the Sens best prospect, AND a pick, for a guy who is no longer expected to do much in the NHL.

- prock



When has Tim Connolly EVER shown he is capable of filling the first line centre role?

Just face it. It was a terrible UFA signing. Burke basically is just throwing away $$$ what many considered the worst first line Center available and who is no longer expected to do much in the NHL.


Ottawa dealt (Rundblad) from a position of strength (tons of Defensive prospects) to fill an obvious need (Second line Center) with Turris who Burke was also trying to acquire.

BTW Rundblad has played a WHOPPING one game for his new team. Rundblad was selected 17th overall, Murray flipped him and a second for a player (Turris) selected 3rd overall, again to fill an obvious need on the current roster.

I'd also like to point out that Turris completely missed training camp, and hasonly played 13 games so far this season.

So if you're silly enough to assume his current level of play is a good indication as to how he'll be playing after gets fully in shape and develops the chemistry that takes a while when coming to a new team, then go ahead and make a fool of yourself.


Rundblad was expendable because Ottawa has Erik Karlsson, the NHL points leader (for defencemen), and 230-pound Cowen who playing in the top four and is logging big time minutes and is being used in all situations.
The Senators also have Patrick Wiercioch and Mark Borowieck in the pipeline in Binghamton.


Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Jan 5 @ 11:30 AM ET
so you are telling me you expected michalek to be in the top of the league in goals?
You expected karrlson to be a damn near PPG guy?

There have been some unexpected players having great years, sure you hoped but you would not have bet money on these seasons

also you said nothing to defend my stance that we apparently "hoped" the sens would be dead last, we made an estimate at the beginning of the year, just like you

- nightmare3020



When I responded "not everyone" is was to repudiate your claim "everyone THOUGHT that the sens would be bottom feeders." in the post I quoted (below)

.... these are two things that stand out

obviously i cannot speak for everyone but the feeling i was getting at the time is everyone THOUGHT that the sens would be bottom feeders.... i wouldnt say they hoped... that would mean we have invested interest and actually care the outcome.... not many if any do.

Their key guys have been key guys and some youth have unexpectedly stepped up. In the long tun this might hurt them in the draft but when you have proud hockey players on the ice its not like they just pack it in

and this leads to making me question if it is reality or not..... i wouldnt say its a reality we HOPED they would suck all year, just an estimation that at the time is wrong.

- nightmare3020



Also, when you you say "we" I'm assuming you mean all leaf fans.............and that is NOT what I said. I know the difference between objective fair leaf fans, and those who blindly follow the piper over the cliff and into the sea.

I ALWAYS make a point of saying "some leaf fans" when I post something directed at those you've proven to be the lemmings.


The reality is that some leaf fans posted many of the type of posts I quoted in mid October, and most of them were based solely on what they hoped the Senators would be like this season.

Some other people, fans of other teams, told these leaf fans that the Sens were not going to be as bad as they were hoping.


- Doppleganger


I know some of the leafs fans here like to put their spin on other poster's comments to stir the pot, but I don't put you in that group.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Jan 5 @ 11:33 AM ET
When has Tim Connolly EVER shown he is capable of filling the first line centre role?


- Doppleganger


Every season since the lockout, with the exception of last year maybe?

I have no idea why you're changing the subject though.



Just face it. It was a terrible UFA signing. Burke basically is just throwing away $$$ what many considered the worst first line Center available and who is no longer expected to do much in the NHL.

- Doppleganger


I guess that's your opinion. A pretty stupid one it is though. Can you show me one article or quote from a hockey analyst saying he was the worst first line centre available? Because I can show you several saying he was the best one available at the time. Throwing money away? It's a two year contract....


Ottawa dealt (Rundblad) from a position of strength (tons of Defensive prospects) to fill an obvious need (Second line Center) with Turris who Burke was also trying to acquire.

- Doppleganger[quote=Doppleganger]

BTW Rundblad has played a WHOPPING one game for his new team. Rundblad was selected 17th overall, Murray flipped him and a second for a player (Turris) selected 3rd overall, again to fill an obvious need on the current roster.



And? What's your point? Turris is a couple of years older. Many publications listed Rundblad as Ottawa's best prospect before the season started.

I'd also like to point out that Turris completely missed training camp, and hasonly played 13 games so far this season.

- Doppleganger


Great. What's his excuse for sucking for the other 4 years since being drafted?


So if you're silly enough to assume his current level of play is a good indication as to how he'll be playing after gets fully in shape and develops the chemistry that takes a while when coming to a new team, then go ahead and make a fool of yourself.

- Doppleganger


Nah, I'll use his play since being drafted as a better indication. You can look like the fool, when you think that a new team is going suddenly change him as a hockey player.



Rundblad was expendable because Ottawa has Erik Karlsson, the NHL points leader (for defencemen), and 230-pound Cowen who playing in the top four and is logging big time minutes and is being used in all situations.
The Senators also have Patrick Wiercioch and Mark Borowieck in the pipeline in Binghamton.

- Doppleganger


that sounds like a great reason to throw away a valuable asset (two, actually) for crap. I like the way you think.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Jan 5 @ 11:35 AM ET
I have watched both KT and DR7 play this year,and i can say KT is more nhl ready and has just as much upside as DR7 .He has played very well behind spezza and his 4 points have come in the 7 or so games he has been here.Not to mention the team has played a lot better with him in the lineup than with DR7.

This isnt to say that DR wont be a great player ,but to say KT wont is pretty premature at this point.I have seen the offensive flashes with KT just as i saw with DR.The only difference is that KT is much more comfortable with NA game and isnt a liabilty on the ice such as DR is currently.

BM and the scouts who drafted DR seem to think KT was worth what they paid for him ,so i,am good with the whole trade

- top shelf 15


I pretty much agree with your take here, but would like to point out (before you get hammered for it) that BM did not draft Rundblad, they traded for him.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Jan 5 @ 11:39 AM ET
Thats what happens when your team overachieves and management makes a silly trade to try to be better now and not rebuild properly.
- senstroll



Even when Mike Fisher was playing for the Senators, the need for a second line Center was always a front burner topic in Ottawa. You know that to be true as you claim to listen to the Team 1200. This trade was made to address that same need today, considering both Fisher and Kelly were traded.

To think this trade was made to improve the Senators chances of making the playoffs is silly, because the search for a second line center has been going on for a couple of years now.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Jan 5 @ 11:42 AM ET
Even when Mike Fisher was playing for the Senators, the need for a second line Center was always a front burner topic in Ottawa. You know that to be true as you claim to listen to the Team 1200. This trade was made to address that same need today, considering both Fisher and Kelly were traded.

To think this trade was made to improve the Senators chances of making the playoffs is silly, because the search for a second line center has been going on for a couple of years now.

- Doppleganger


He was getting terribly desperate, that much was clear. Unusual timing to be so desperate though, considering now is likely the best opportunity to take his time and fill the spot with a solid player.

as usual though, you're not comprehending what he said. He never said make the playoffs, he said improve now. Typical Dops though.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Jan 5 @ 12:00 PM ET
He was getting terribly desperate, that much was clear. Unusual timing to be so desperate though, considering now is likely the best opportunity to take his time and fill the spot with a solid player.

as usual though, you're not comprehending what he said. He never said make the playoffs, he said improve now. Typical Dops though.

- prock



Well not really. Murray's interest in Turris has be in the media since his training camp hold out. I might also point out that a number of GMs including the mighty Brian Burke (who knows the perfect way to re-build a team) were inquiring about acquiring Turris.

When they sent Da Costa down to the AHL, Foligno was shifted to center for a number of games, and started to fit in well there, and I thought perhaps they would go with him there in the line up for the remainder of the season. But I guess Murray saw enough of Ruindblad's weaknesses (at the NHL level) and figured instead of developing him to be ready to play everyday in the NHL in a year or two, he decided to fill a long standing need at Center.

No Senators fan could see Rundblad and Karlsson playing together in the Future, assuming Rundblad would develop into a NHL puck moving defense man. Why would a team need two almost identical type of players? Neither would get the ice time their style demands ( again assuming Rundblad would develop into a NHL puck moving defense man), so why not flip Rundblad to fill long needed second line center.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Jan 5 @ 12:06 PM ET
Well not really. Murray's interest in Turris has be in the media since his training camp hold out. I might also point out that a number of GMs including the mighty Brian Burke (who knows the perfect way to re-build a team) were inquiring about acquiring Turris.

- Doppleganger


But Burke would never overpay so drastically like that, so if it's true, he was smart to move on, and have some other sucker pay that price.


When they sent Da Costa down to the AHL, Foligno was shifted to center for a number of games, and started to fit in well there, and I thought perhaps they would go with him there in the line up for the remainder of the season. But I guess Murray saw enough of Ruindblad's weaknesses (at the NHL level) and figured instead of developing him to be ready to play everyday in the NHL in a year or two, he decided to fill a long standing need at Center.

- Doppleganger


Yeah, and after years of Maloney dealing with Turris, and watching all his numerous weaknesses, he saw an opportunity to dump him, and rip another GM off, and he jumped on it.


No Senators fan could see Rundblad and Karlsson playing together in the Future, assuming Rundblad would develop into a NHL puck moving defense man. Why would a team need two almost identical type of players? Neither would get the ice time their style demands ( again assuming Rundblad would develop into a NHL puck moving defense man), so why not flip Rundblad to fill long needed second line center.

- Doppleganger


Yes, I've heard your rationale of dumping the Sens top prospect for crap because they already had a similar player. Great logic. Love it.
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Jan 5 @ 1:39 PM ET
You can trust your Ottawa scouts.... What makes you think the Phoenix scouts and coaches weren't well aware of what Turris' potential and his issues may be?
- prock

That is a valid point,but would you not say that PHN might have rushed KT into the nhl before he was fully developed,he was pretty decent for them last season and looked as if he was starting to put it all together towards the end of the season and into the playoffs.

So saying all that and with ottawa,s management willing to mve out a dynamic young prospect PMD do you not beleive they might now something others might not
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Jan 5 @ 1:41 PM ET
I pretty much agree with your take here, but would like to point out (before you get hammered for it) that BM did not draft Rundblad, they traded for him.
- Doppleganger

Yep you,re right but he saw something in him that made trading away a high draft to aquire him
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Jan 5 @ 1:44 PM ET
That is a valid point,but would you not say that PHN might have rushed KT into the nhl before he was fully developed,he was pretty decent for them last season and looked as if he was starting to put it all together towards the end of the season and into the playoffs.

So saying all that and with ottawa,s management willing to mve out a dynamic young prospect PMD do you not beleive they might now something others might not

- top shelf 15



I'm more inclined to believe Phoenix knew more about Turris after 4 years of dealing with him on North American soil in their organization than the Sens knew about Rundblad after 1 year I think, and a few months on NA soil thanks. The fact that just about every hockey fan, analyst, writer, and scout agrees that it was a stupid trade helps a little too.
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Jan 5 @ 1:44 PM ET
The Bolded comment basically explains this, you sound like leaf fans from 2004-2008.

They had a great asset in DR, a high end prospect, where experts say the ceiling was very high. On top of that they threw in a 2nd? Seems like an overpayment to me. KT for DR would have been too much imo. Why not keep your assets, develop them, not rush a quicker turnaround. Trades like getting Anderson, Filatov and Turris, those are ones to get better results now...the first 2 have not worked out like expected

For example, what if the Sens hold onto DR and he progresses like Karlson, look at the value of Karlson now, they could get 3 Turris's and a 1st for him. They have Spezza as the #1, pick up another cheaper #2 to fill the void until M. Zib. is ready to step in. At the same time the sens are probably finishing lower in the standing and getting another high end prospect.

anyawys seems to be a difference of opinion on rebuilding...if you love how Murray is doing it great...

- senstroll

We didnt move a good prospect and a pick for a 34 year old player here ,he is 22 years old and still can be a good maybe great player in this league .So i still dont see what this has to do with ottawa giving up on the rebuild to win now .

And besides i want my gm to try and make my team better not tank for high draft picks all the time
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Jan 5 @ 1:48 PM ET
I'm more inclined to believe Phoenix knew more about Turris after 4 years of dealing with him on North American soil in their organization than the Sens knew about Rundblad after 1 year I think, and a few months on NA soil thanks. The fact that just about every hockey fan, analyst, writer, and scout agrees that it was a stupid trade helps a little too.
- prock

Writer,s, anylist,s, AND hockey fans all said that KT is a bust ,and the fact ottawa wasnt the only team looking to trade for him pretty much makes your scout comment moot also
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Jan 5 @ 1:49 PM ET
Funny writer,s, anylist,s??? hockey fans all said that KT is a bust ,and the fact ottawa wasnt the only team looking to trade for him pretty much makes your scout comment moot also
- top shelf 15



Huh?
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Jan 5 @ 1:52 PM ET
Huh?
- prock

Read your quote you claimed that writers,anylist,s and fans all have deemed KT a bust,and if all the scout,s said what you wrote why did other teams other than ottawa try to aquire him

Also which writers ?? the non biased ones out of Toronto like TSN ,CBC,sportsnet yeah i dont take what they say with any merit what so ever.To busy talking up the leafs and putting down all the other canadian teams to make any of there opinions mean much anyways
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Jan 5 @ 1:59 PM ET
Read your quote you claimed that writers,anylist,s and fans all have deemed KT a bust,and if all the scout,s said what you wrote why did other teams other than ottawa try to aquire him
- top shelf 15



Maybe they were willing to give up a 4th rounder to take a chance on him?
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Jan 5 @ 2:02 PM ET
Maybe they were willing to give up a 4th rounder to take a chance on him?
- prock

Did you get that gem from TSN ,or Leafs lunch
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Jan 5 @ 2:09 PM ET
Did you get that gem from TSN ,or Leafs lunch
- top shelf 15


Not surprising, you don't get the point. Just because a few teams kicked tires, and inquired (which, by the way, is just rumour anyway, is it not?), doesn't mean they were willing to give up anything decent for him. Hell, I would have given up a 4th for him, just to have him in the system, and play him with the Marlies. The fact that other GMs MAY have inquired really means squat, and by no means is an indication that Murray didn't get completely raped. Everything points to Murray screwing up. Just about everyone but a select few Sens fans agree.
senstroll
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Jan 5 @ 2:18 PM ET
Even when Mike Fisher was playing for the Senators, the need for a second line Center was always a front burner topic in Ottawa. You know that to be true as you claim to listen to the Team 1200. This trade was made to address that same need today, considering both Fisher and Kelly were traded.

To think this trade was made to improve the Senators chances of making the playoffs is silly, because the search for a second line center has been going on for a couple of years now.

- Doppleganger


I am not disputing the need for a 2nd line Center, I am disputing how they obtained one and what they had to give up... If they needed one for the past 5 years, why rush to get one now at such a high price? Wait for your draft pick from last season to come along. I also never said it was to make the playoffs this season, but to speed up the rebuild, what else is it if not a quick fix rebuild attempt. they have another high end Center prospect coming

Comparing getting Turris (gave up a lot) to Connolly is stupid, all the leafs gave up for money for 2 seasons. Connolly has 20 points in 27 games... or 18 goals 42 assists... 60 point player... as #2 Center...
senstroll
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Jan 5 @ 2:22 PM ET
Well not really. Murray's interest in Turris has be in the media since his training camp hold out. I might also point out that a number of GMs including the mighty Brian Burke (who knows the perfect way to re-build a team) were inquiring about acquiring Turris.

When they sent Da Costa down to the AHL, Foligno was shifted to center for a number of games, and started to fit in well there, and I thought perhaps they would go with him there in the line up for the remainder of the season. But I guess Murray saw enough of Ruindblad's weaknesses (at the NHL level) and figured instead of developing him to be ready to play everyday in the NHL in a year or two, he decided to fill a long standing need at Center.

No Senators fan could see Rundblad and Karlsson playing together in the Future, assuming Rundblad would develop into a NHL puck moving defense man. Why would a team need two almost identical type of players? Neither would get the ice time their style demands ( again assuming Rundblad would develop into a NHL puck moving defense man), so why not flip Rundblad to fill long needed second line center.

- Doppleganger


Who wouldnt inquire about a player? if they think it can help the team somehow... But Burke is the smarter one in this case, he didnt give up way to much to get him... BM did

oh and Runblad Karlson .... Pronger Neidermayer .... nah doesnt work
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Jan 5 @ 2:23 PM ET
Not surprising, you don't get the point. Just because a few teams kicked tires, and inquired (which, by the way, is just rumour anyway, is it not?), doesn't mean they were willing to give up anything decent for him. Hell, I would have given up a 4th for him, just to have him in the system, and play him with the Marlies. The fact that other GMs MAY have inquired really means squat, and by no means is an indication that Murray didn't get completely raped. Everything points to Murray screwing up. Just about everyone but a select few Sens fans agree.
- prock

Again ,what makes you think BM has failed please elighten me .I look at ottawa and i see a good young and up and coming team ,in which we have two very young defensemen leading the way.As well as some great homegrown prospects playing pretty big roles and suceeding .Add to this a pretty decent list of prospects coming.

Now BM makes a move for a young center whom all of ottawa,s managent and coaches seem to be pretty high on .Yet he fails Come on now the leafs who are supposed to be LIGHT YEARS ahead your words not mine, are behind us in the standings with us winning 2 out of the three games we have played.

Maybe the leafs should try to fail as bad huh
senstroll
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Jan 5 @ 2:33 PM ET
Again ,what makes you think BM has failed please elighten me .I look at ottawa and i see a good young and up and coming team ,in which we have two very young defensemen leading the way.As well as some great homegrown prospects playing pretty big roles and suceeding .Add to this a pretty decent list of prospects coming.

Now BM makes a move for a young center whom all of ottawa,s managent and coaches seem to be pretty high on .Yet he fails Come on now the leafs who are supposed to be LIGHT YEARS ahead your words not mine, are behind us in the standings with us winning 2 out of the three games we have played.

Maybe the leafs should try to fail as bad huh

- top shelf 15


I am fine if BB doesnt trade more young talent/picks to get a quick fix/risky player... He can take his time, I am ok with that

Turris is a high pick in a weak draft...
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