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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
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senstroll
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Jun 16 @ 9:02 AM ET
Haven't really back-read, so I don't know if I missed this, but it looks like the Sens are forced to protect Phaneuf in the expansion draft. Assuming they also protect Karlsson, that means they only have one spot left to use, which I imagine would be used on Ceci.

Interesting.

If the Leafs had kept him, they'd have had only been able to protect Rielly and Gardiner... and would likely lose Carrick, who was pretty impressive last season.

I wonder if that factored into their decision at all.(not the Carrick part specifically)

- Feeling Glucky?


Hard to say..but I think they just wanted to move Dions contract regardless..its a huge drag on the cap



D0PPELGANGER
Ottawa Senators
Location: Ottawa, ON
Joined: 05.06.2015

Jun 16 @ 9:22 AM ET
Hard to say..but I think they just wanted to move Dions contract regardless..its a huge drag on the cap
- senstroll



So now, without his 7M cap hit, but WITH Michalek, Greening and Cowen collective 8.7 cap hit ................ the leafs have just over 13 Million in cap space for next year.

Yes I know this number (8.7M) will drop with Cowen on waivers, or being bought out ........... but the difference (for next season) is negligible in terms of Cap hit ........ and after next season there will be more cap room once the others are off the books.

In any case, the "drag on the cap" is not as bad as you seem to be making it out to be, as they'll have lots of room for the next few seasons.

So having Cap space is good, now that the leafs have it........... but it's bad for the Sens, because you can't win a Cup without spending to the Cap, as leaf fans insist ............. sucking and blowing at the same time in leaf land, eh?
senstroll
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Jun 16 @ 10:10 AM ET
So now, without his 7M cap hit, but WITH Michalek, Greening and Cowen collective 8.7 cap hit ................ the leafs have just over 13 Million in cap space for next year.

Yes I know this number (8.7M) will drop with Cowen on waivers, or being bought out ........... but the difference (for next season) is negligible in terms of Cap hit ........ and after next season there will be more cap room once the others are off the books.

In any case, the "drag on the cap" is not as bad as you seem to be making it out to be, as they'll have lots of room for the next few seasons.

So having Cap space is good, now that the leafs have it........... but it's bad for the Sens, because you can't win a Cup without spending to the Cap, as leaf fans insist ............. sucking and blowing at the same time in leaf land, eh?

- D0PPELGANGER


Dion at 7 mil is not a value contract...you dont want those if you are trying to build a contending team..the cap is flat lining now not going up.

This is what the Leafs have left from that trade for cap hit

MM/Greening/Cowan
Cap hit 2016-17 - 6 million
Cap hit 2017-18 - 750k

Plus they got a prospect and 2nd

its a (frank)ing great deal for the leafs...no question
Tumbleweed
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: tenav for drouin. lol @ canucks
Joined: 03.14.2014

Jun 16 @ 10:42 AM ET
So now, without his 7M cap hit, but WITH Michalek, Greening and Cowen collective 8.7 cap hit ................ the leafs have just over 13 Million in cap space for next year.

Yes I know this number (8.7M) will drop with Cowen on waivers, or being bought out ........... but the difference (for next season) is negligible in terms of Cap hit ........ and after next season there will be more cap room once the others are off the books.

In any case, the "drag on the cap" is not as bad as you seem to be making it out to be, as they'll have lots of room for the next few seasons.

So having Cap space is good, now that the leafs have it........... but it's bad for the Sens, because you can't win a Cup without spending to the Cap, as leaf fans insist ............. sucking and blowing at the same time in leaf land, eh?

- D0PPELGANGER


Leafs aren’t competing for a cup next year, so the cap is less important.

In order to best compete for a cup you want to maximize your resources by both spending to the cap and choosing good players to spend your money on. Sens do neither.

senstroll
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Jun 16 @ 11:04 AM ET
Leafs aren’t competing for a cup next year, so the cap is less important.

In order to best compete for a cup you want to maximize your resources by both spending to the cap and choosing good players to spend your money on. Sens do neither.

- Tumbleweed



Well the sens do have value contracts
I would say Turris, Stone, Karlsson..and probably Methot
Hoffman if they can re-sign reasonable, JGP 1 year left at 900k

Ryan, Phaneuf and Macarthur are
Tumbleweed
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: tenav for drouin. lol @ canucks
Joined: 03.14.2014

Jun 16 @ 11:15 AM ET
Well the sens do have value contracts
I would say Turris, Stone, Karlsson..and probably Methot
Hoffman if they can re-sign reasonable, JGP 1 year left at 900k

Ryan, Phaneuf and Macarthur are

- senstroll


When you’re spending over 20% of your cap or budget or whatever on phanuef and ryan – you’re ceiling is pretty much a 9th place team.
senstroll
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Jun 16 @ 12:07 PM ET
When you’re spending over 20% of your cap or budget or whatever on phanuef and ryan – you’re ceiling is pretty much a 9th place team.
- Tumbleweed



yes you do have a smaller margin for error since you are over paying 2 players who are the biggest cap hits on the team
Aetherial
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: he's 35, time to be fart the messenger boy.
Joined: 06.30.2006

Jun 16 @ 2:07 PM ET
Welp, we needed a decent veteran dman .We saved money on moving out, more money than we took in .And we have a replacement for Methot when we lose him to the expansion draft,which would have happened regardless if we traded for Phanuef or not so...
- top shelf 15


You did not move out more than you took in.

Some Sens fans seem to forget the idea of term on a contract.
Aetherial
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: he's 35, time to be fart the messenger boy.
Joined: 06.30.2006

Jun 16 @ 2:12 PM ET
So if the leafs spend to the cap next season, they'll win the Cup?
- D0PPELGANGER


This non-sequitur exceeds even your, previously established, lofty levels of stupidity.

Aetherial
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: he's 35, time to be fart the messenger boy.
Joined: 06.30.2006

Jun 16 @ 2:19 PM ET
So now, without his 7M cap hit, but WITH Michalek, Greening and Cowen collective 8.7 cap hit ................ the leafs have just over 13 Million in cap space for next year.

Yes I know this number (8.7M) will drop with Cowen on waivers, or being bought out ........... but the difference (for next season) is negligible in terms of Cap hit ........ and after next season there will be more cap room once the others are off the books.

In any case, the "drag on the cap" is not as bad as you seem to be making it out to be, as they'll have lots of room for the next few seasons.

So having Cap space is good, now that the leafs have it........... but it's bad for the Sens, because you can't win a Cup without spending to the Cap, as leaf fans insist ............. sucking and blowing at the same time in leaf land, eh?

- D0PPELGANGER


Thanks UG.



nightmare3020
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Windsor Area, ON
Joined: 08.23.2006

Jun 16 @ 2:32 PM ET
Is it a Leafs car or a Sens car?
- golfingsince

a leafs car is going down a hill real fast with all the fans cranking music and having a great time

where a sens car would have everyone trying to push it uphill with no gas in the tank
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Jun 16 @ 8:47 PM ET
When you’re spending over 20% of your cap or budget or whatever on phanuef and ryan – you’re ceiling is pretty much a 9th place team.
- Tumbleweed


Everybody in Ottawa seems extremely happy with Phaneuf. He really helped Ceci improve his game. He still has some very good years ahead of him, I don't think the Sens will regret the trade.

The Sens have no problem scoring, especially 5 on 5. They need to play better D in order to get to the next level. Phaneuf playing on the second D pairing is going to help a lot. I thought the Sens should have gone after Kessel. I also supported them going after Phaneuf. Good D men are very hard to get. Phaneuf playing #4 in Ottawa gives him a far better chance to excel than playing #1 in Toronto.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Jun 16 @ 9:08 PM ET
Ever since the Leafs won the lottery I've worried about your blood pressure. You okay? I'm at church. Just wanted to say hi.
- systemtool


Blood pressure is fine. Church won't hurt you.

My studies are in theology and counseling. I work with individuals and families that are dealing with serious addictions in another family member. Love the work and the people that I work with. But, sometimes it is heavy stuff.

Discussion threads here provide me with a wonderful real world alternative. I am fine and enjoy the personal insults. Usually when someone reverts to the personal it is a good indication that you have a good solid boot on his throat. Anyway keep up the good work, I enjoy all your posts. But, be careful of what you say about Mrs. Spatso, she can be frightfully intimidating if angered.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Jun 16 @ 9:37 PM ET
Blood pressure is fine. Church won't hurt you.

My studies are in theology and counseling. I work with individuals and families that are dealing with serious addictions in another family member. Love the work and the people that I work with. But, sometimes it is heavy stuff.

Discussion threads here provide me with a wonderful real world alternative. I am fine and enjoy the personal insults. Usually when someone reverts to the personal it is a good indication that you have a good solid boot on his throat. Anyway keep up the good work, I enjoy all your posts. But, be careful of what you say about Mrs. Spatso, she can be frightfully intimidating if angered.

- spatso

Or maybe they truly believe you're an idiot?
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Jun 16 @ 9:42 PM ET
Or maybe they truly believe you're an idiot?
- Feeling Glucky?


I am certain that they are hoping that I am wrong. But we all know what upsets most Leaf posters is that for the last 10 years I have far more right than I have been wrong. I believe you were one of the fans who thought the Kessel deal was just wonderful. When I stood up and said it was a huge mistake, there were not many who stood with me.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Jun 16 @ 9:55 PM ET
I am certain that they are hoping that I am wrong. But we all know what upsets most Leaf posters is that for the last 10 years I have far more right than I have been wrong. I believe you were one of the fans who thought the Kessel deal was just wonderful. When I stood up and said it was a huge mistake, there were not many who stood with me.
- spatso

Yes. The Senators have fully rewarded you, and proven you to be a hockey GENIUS!
D0PPELGANGER
Ottawa Senators
Location: Ottawa, ON
Joined: 05.06.2015

Jun 16 @ 11:00 PM ET
Dion at 7 mil is not a value contract...you dont want those if you are trying to build a contending team..the cap is flat lining now not going up.

This is what the Leafs have left from that trade for cap hit

MM/Greening/Cowan
Cap hit 2016-17 - 6 million
Cap hit 2017-18 - 750k

Plus they got a prospect and 2nd

its a (frank)ing great deal for the leafs...no question

- senstroll


Not arguing that it was a good trade for both teams .... for different reasons. Would not say one team "won" the trade just yet, as the prospect and the 2nd could be the difference if they do, or don't work out.
D0PPELGANGER
Ottawa Senators
Location: Ottawa, ON
Joined: 05.06.2015

Jun 16 @ 11:05 PM ET
Everybody in Ottawa seems extremely happy with Phaneuf. He really helped Ceci improve his game. He still has some very good years ahead of him, I don't think the Sens will regret the trade.

The Sens have no problem scoring, especially 5 on 5. They need to play better D in order to get to the next level. Phaneuf playing on the second D pairing is going to help a lot. I thought the Sens should have gone after Kessel. I also supported them going after Phaneuf. Good D men are very hard to get. Phaneuf playing #4 in Ottawa gives him a far better chance to excel than playing #1 in Toronto.

- spatso



"extremely happy with Phaneuf" might be a little to much. They moved out some deadwood, plus MM and TL who would have been nice to keep ................. but they had to give something to get a top 4 Dman who will play everyday ............ so it shores up the Defense and creates roster spot or two for some new blood.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Jun 17 @ 5:47 AM ET
"extremely happy with Phaneuf" might be a little to much. They moved out some deadwood, plus MM and TL who would have been nice to keep ................. but they had to give something to get a top 4 Dman who will play everyday ............ so it shores up the Defense and creates roster spot or two for some new blood.
- D0PPELGANGER


I agree on Lindberg as he has size and potential but he did not seem to have much impact when he moved over with the Marlies and was a healthy scratch on occasion during the playoffs. Michalek gives you a few good games every year, has nice size and is really good in dressing room, highly respected by other players. But, he is always hurt and missing or playing with injury and physically struggling.

Everyone is just beginning to realize how scarce top 4 Dman have become. There are no free agents of any great substance available this year. RFAs like Tyson Barrie were thought to be available but Sakic has pulled him off the market. Pittsburg says they will find a way to sign Schultz. Other teams are lining up wanting to talk to the few teams (Columbus) that might have a top 4 Dman available. Edmonton has floated names like Hall and NuHop as potentially being made available for a young Dman who could play a top 2 role. Brian Campbell at age 38 is going to get an NHL deal. The NY Rangers were supposed to be wanting to move out Girard but that is no longer happening. Ask Leaf fans about Dion come this November and I promise you will get a very different response than today.

Keep it simple the Leafs traded Phaneuf prior to the end of the season in order to solidify their desire for the 1st overall pick. They accomplished their goal and have no reason to regret their decision. But Dion Phaneuf playing as a #1 in Toronto will be very different than Dion playing a #4 partnered with Ceci and, most important, playing behind the most precious and gifted One.
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Jun 17 @ 8:46 AM ET
You’re working in theory, not in the real world.

Nobody cares what savings they had yesterday. All melnyk is going to give a poop about is how much money he needs to spend on phanuef going forward.

His actual salary year to year will be part of the budget; not some made up average amount after savings.

- Tumbleweed
What theory,its what happened .Again it was a good deal for us ,Toronto softened the deal with actual dollars ,for us to take Dion at a reasonable cost per season.The cap only matters if you plan on spending right up to it ,Ottawa wont so cap space doesnt matter
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Jun 17 @ 8:52 AM ET
You did not move out more than you took in.

Some Sens fans seem to forget the idea of term on a contract.

- Aetherial
Yes i get what you are saying ,for us to take the term .Toronto made it easy,by giving us a solid second pairing dman .At a price after all the extra money shakes out is 5.4 mil per season .
Tumbleweed
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: tenav for drouin. lol @ canucks
Joined: 03.14.2014

Jun 17 @ 10:30 AM ET
Yes i get what you are saying ,for us to take the term .Toronto made it easy,by giving us a solid second pairing dman .At a price after all the extra money shakes out is 5.4 mil per season .

- top shelf 15


Phaneuf $7.5M - Michalek $4m - greening $3.2M - cowen buyout $750k = ~$500k in savings.

Considering that the sens have replacement costs for greening and michalek, it’s actually costing you more next year for 3 players.
systemtool
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Real men always have to poo, ON
Joined: 09.12.2007

Jun 17 @ 12:52 PM ET
Phaneuf $7.5M - Michalek $4m - greening $3.2M - cowen buyout $750k = ~$500k in savings.

Considering that the sense have replacement costs for greening and michalek, it’s actually costing you more next year for 3 players.

- Tumbleweed


I dont understand the point of his salary or cap hit not mattering. Okay fine, I get the part where since they don't spend to the cap what should it matter what the cap hit is. They're still a budget team though and I'm not sure I'd be trilled with a 5.5 2nd pairing dman when the team can only spend so much. On a long term deal. In his 30s. Still doesn't sound like a good idea to me.
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Jun 17 @ 1:06 PM ET
Phaneuf $7.5M - Michalek $4m - greening $3.2M - cowen buyout $750k = ~$500k in savings.

Considering that the sense have replacement costs for greening and michalek, it’s actually costing you more next year for 3 players.

- Tumbleweed
You still need to pay actual dollars to buy him out

Joined: 12.31.1969

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