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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
Author Message
sens rock
Joined: 09.30.2007

Oct 27 @ 6:24 PM ET
Nice review. I do have a few quibbles.

I could be convinced to like most of the deals that Burke has done, except for the Kessel deal. My objection has never been the deals specifically. Rather, it is the duplication of deals and the stockpiling of over age prospects. It is possible that some of these guys could be late bloomers and they will come around. I am inclined to believe they are just guessing and hoping something works out for them.

The other quibble that I have may be more problematic. If we could go back to the Kessel deal, I said from the beginning it was a mistake. I was attacked vigorously by most of the Kool-aid drinkers who wanted to defend Burke and the deal. Some of those who now say they disagree with the deal were part of the group that was so self righteous at the time of the original deal.

Bottom line, here is the concern. Even though Burke makes all these deals he creates such a state of flux and change that the overall performance of the team does not improve. An organization can only absorb so much change. When the level of change becomes too disruptive, it is likely that the changes will drive a dislocation cost. So, even though the individual changes appear to suggest a net improvement. there is actually a loss of performance directly tied to the chaotic costs associated with the dislocation.

- spatso


Classify them as "overage prospects" if you want. but what about taking into account the crap you gave up to get them. he added alot of depth with alot of promise. even if only 2 or 3 of them make it its better than the 30+ year olds that he gave up that are pretty much worth nothing right now.
Schenn-Sational!
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Sorry you don't understand...Y
Joined: 10.08.2008

Oct 27 @ 6:25 PM ET
Never going to happen......
- burn


but he totally doesn't have anything against the players, and he definitely doesn't want to bash them. He just likes saying things that aren't true and cast the players in a negative light.

Schenn-Sational!
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Sorry you don't understand...Y
Joined: 10.08.2008

Oct 27 @ 6:27 PM ET
Classify them as "overage prospects" if you want. but what about taking into account the crap you gave up to get them. he added alot of depth with alot of promise. even if only 2 or 3 of them make it its better than the 30+ year olds that he gave up that are pretty much worth nothing right now.
- sens rock

I'm just trying to figure out who these overage prospects, that are low on other team's depth charts are... because pretty much every single prospect acquired was in their team's top-5 at the time of the trade.
sens rock
Joined: 09.30.2007

Oct 27 @ 6:29 PM ET
I'm just trying to figure out who these overage prospects, that are low on other team's depth charts are... because pretty much every single prospect acquired was in their team's top-5 at the time of the trade.
- Schenn-Sational!


its all about increasing the probability of success. Burke has done that with his recent moves. he moved out garbage and received potential in return. i don't know how you can fault him for that.
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Oct 27 @ 6:32 PM ET
its all about increasing the probability of success. Burke has done that with his recent moves. he moved out garbage and received potential in return. i don't know how you can fault him for that.
- sens rock



The only way is to make up BS (low on the depth chart, overage, ect).
Schenn-Sational!
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Sorry you don't understand...Y
Joined: 10.08.2008

Oct 27 @ 6:32 PM ET
its all about increasing the probability of success. Burke has done that with his recent moves. he moved out garbage and received potential in return. i don't know how you can fault him for that.
- sens rock

I agree entirely.


But I still don't know which prospects he's refering to. Has Burke made any trades I wasn't aware of?
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Oct 27 @ 6:37 PM ET
I'm just trying to figure out who these overage prospects, that are low on other team's depth charts are... because pretty much every single prospect acquired was in their team's top-5 at the time of the trade.
- Schenn-Sational!


You guys can be so tedious. I defined overagers several pages back as essentially the same as the CHL definition of overager. I believe that is age 20 and above.
sens rock
Joined: 09.30.2007

Oct 27 @ 6:37 PM ET
I agree entirely.


But I still don't know which prospects he's refering to. Has Burke made any trades I wasn't aware of?

- Schenn-Sational!


wonder if he is against signing free agent college players as well.
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Oct 27 @ 6:42 PM ET
You guys can be so tedious. I defined overagers several pages back as essentially the same as the CHL definition of overager. I believe that is age 20 and above.
- spatso



That's moronic..... if you are over 20 you can't still be a legit prospect?


What of the idiotic notion that all the acquired prospect were bottom of the depth charts??
sens rock
Joined: 09.30.2007

Oct 27 @ 6:44 PM ET
That's moronic..... if you are over 20 you can't still be a legit prospect?


What of the idiotic notion that all the acquired prospect were bottom of the depth charts??

- burn


thats a prock assessment as well
Schenn-Sational!
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Sorry you don't understand...Y
Joined: 10.08.2008

Oct 27 @ 6:46 PM ET
You guys can be so tedious. I defined overagers several pages back as essentially the same as the CHL definition of overager. I believe that is age 20 and above.
- spatso

I see, so are you against Ottawa trading for overagers Filatov and Rundblad?

was it a bad idea for Philly to acquire overagers Schenn, Simmonds, and Vorachek?

Edit: Overager in junior hockey only refers to guys who are still playing in the CHL, when they are eligible for AHL rosters, since Aulie was never an overager, and neither Colborne nor Gardiner played CHL hockey, none are overagers.
sens rock
Joined: 09.30.2007

Oct 27 @ 6:47 PM ET
You guys can be so tedious. I defined overagers several pages back as essentially the same as the CHL definition of overager. I believe that is age 20 and above.
- spatso


sometimes players just need a change of scenery to recharge themselves. Chara was a 23 year old throw in in the spezza trade and turned out to be one of the best dman of his generation.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Oct 27 @ 6:48 PM ET
Kadri is a work in progress. Colborne is a good example of a team deciding to let him go. Boston is very good at developing their prospects. When they move prospects taken lower in the draft ahead of Colborne it should mean something. The same with Franson, Gardiner and Aulie. When teams let prospects go it means something. Don't want to knock any of the kids. But you need to know that their original teams found something missing in their games. All of them could be good NHL players one day, My problem is when the kool-aid drinkers insist that Blowhard has hit a home run and he stole these superior talents from unsuspecting GMs of the other teams. I don't believe the other guys are so dumb and, I certainly don't think Blowhard is that smart.
- spatso


I think this is the group (above) we were discussing and this is the group that we identified as overagers. I think if you check out each one you will see that they are exact fit of the CHL definition. Clearly, you understand that I was not suggesting that they were old, simply overagers. Not sure what your motive is in trying to create any controversy around what is a well accepted hockey definition.
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Oct 27 @ 6:50 PM ET
thats a prock assessment as well
- sens rock



WHAT WAS??
sens rock
Joined: 09.30.2007

Oct 27 @ 6:51 PM ET
WHAT WAS??
- burn


anything over 20/21 is a bust and no good.
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Oct 27 @ 6:51 PM ET
sometimes players just need a change of scenery to recharge themselves. Chara was a 23 year old throw in in the spezza trade and turned out to be one of the best dman of his generation.
- sens rock



No no no.... The sens saw something in him they didn't like. he was an overager who will not develop into anything.
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Oct 27 @ 6:52 PM ET
anything over 20/21 is a bust and no good.
- sens rock



I don't think so. I think he was turning Spatso's stupidity around on him.
sens rock
Joined: 09.30.2007

Oct 27 @ 6:54 PM ET
I don't think so. I think he was turning Spatso's stupidity around on him.
- burn


its not just this thread.

in a way its right. there aren't very many top line players that are late developers. but there are alot of decent players where it just doesn't click until they are a bit older.
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Oct 27 @ 6:58 PM ET
its not just this thread.

in a way its right. there aren't very many top line players that are late developers. but there are alot of decent players where it just doesn't click until they are a bit older.

- sens rock



Yeah, but we aren't talking about older players. They are 20 -21 years old. They would just be finishing their junior careers.
Schenn-Sational!
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Sorry you don't understand...Y
Joined: 10.08.2008

Oct 27 @ 6:58 PM ET
I think this is the group (above) we were discussing and this is the group that we identified as overagers. I think if you check out each one you will see that they are exact fit of the CHL definition. Clearly, you understand that I was not suggesting that they were old, simply overagers. Not sure what your motive is in trying to create any controversy around what is a well accepted hockey definition.
- spatso

For one, you used it out of it's context.

And for another, what is your motivation behind this BS:"the fact that he has done multiple transactions involving players from the lower ranks of other teams depth charts"?

Or claiming that Leafs fans "squealed with delight" when many saw Colborne as a long-term prospect, Lombardi as a guy who wouldn't play till december if at all, and Connolly an injury prone stop-gap?


Why when you claim you are not bashing do you constantly feel the need to insult, bullpoop, and flat out lie?
sens rock
Joined: 09.30.2007

Oct 27 @ 7:00 PM ET
Yeah, but we aren't talking about older players. They are 20 -21 years old. They would just be finishing their junior careers.
- burn


thats what i mean, there aren't many top line players (maybe some dman and goalies for sure) that play their full junior career.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Oct 27 @ 7:05 PM ET
I don't think so. I think he was turning Spatso's stupidity around on him.
- burn


It does not matter if you function as a dog or a pack of dogs. If the bark is nonsensical and driven by a constant need to reaffirm the orthodoxy of MLSE teaching, excuse me if I don't buy into it.

You guys are not nearly as intense this time around as you were when I challenged you about the viability of the Kessel trade. I don't believe this team is any better than the team from last year. I guess maybe it is time to just wait and see what evolves. Sometimes the truth hurts. So, let's just see where it goes.
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Oct 27 @ 7:06 PM ET
thats what i mean, there aren't many top line players (maybe some dman and goalies for sure) that play their full junior career.
- sens rock




Couture? Perry and getzlaf? There are many. It's getting less and less but it does happen
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Oct 27 @ 7:10 PM ET
It does not matter if you function as a dog or a pack of dogs. If the bark is nonsensical and driven by a constant need to reaffirm the orthodoxy of MLSE teaching, excuse me if I don't buy into it.

You guys are not nearly as intense this time around as you were when I challenged you about the viability of the Kessel trade. I don't believe this team is any better than the team from last year. I guess maybe it is time to just wait and see what evolves. Sometimes the truth hurts. So, let's just see where it goes.

- spatso




Nonsenscal? Thats quite ironic coming from you.



Who are you speaking to in regards to the kessel deal? Cause I don't know many around here that said it was good. More nonsensical ramblings from spatso.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Oct 27 @ 7:11 PM ET
For one, you used it out of it's context.

And for another, what is your motivation behind this BS:"the fact that he has done multiple transactions involving players from the lower ranks of other teams depth charts"?

Or claiming that Leafs fans "squealed with delight" when many saw Colborne as a long-term prospect, Lombardi as a guy who wouldn't play till december if at all, and Connolly an injury prone stop-gap?


Why when you claim you are not bashing do you constantly feel the need to insult, bullpoop, and flat out lie?

- Schenn-Sational!


The context is the constant rolling over of the kool-aid squad to accept whatever they say without any critical analysis. For the most part they believe that every deal that Burke does is a great success because that is what they hope. Understanding the definitions will give you some understanding of the meaning of "false hope."

The reference to players available because of the other teams depth chart simply recognizes that Franson and Gardiner were offered up because their respective teams had Blum and Fowler slotted into their depth charts ahead of the guys they made available.
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