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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
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burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Oct 27 @ 7:26 AM ET
Clearly a distortion of the actual context of the exchange of information. The point was initially made about several transactions having been undertaken (eg. Franson, Aulie and Gardiner). My point was simple and clear. Specifically, when a team takes on a group of young players that other teams have decided are expendable it provides at least a notional insight into the quality and depth of a teams talent.

Prock made a very astute observation that the comment about the Leaf prospects should apply equally to Filatov and Rundblad and I agreed with him. Filatov is easy, any team could have had him for a second round pick but there were no takers. Ottawa got him for a third round pick. It was a good deal for Ottawa not because Filatov is such a great talent but because Ottawa is very empty of up front talent.

The Runblad situation is a little different. They dealt for Rundblad rather than take Tarasenko. Ottawa probably did this because they are so gun shy when it comes to taking Russians. As good as Runblad is and may be in the future Tarsenko is a future super star. If Prock asks the question again in five years I am sure everyone will agree that Ottawa should have stuck with the order of things and taken Tarasenko.

- spatso



No guarantee they take Tarasenko.....


And just because one team trades a player doesn't mean that that team didn't want/couldn't find use for him. That's absurd. Are you saying the Oilers in 89 didn't need/want Gretzky anymore? One team trading another doesn't mean that that player is worthless. Jake Gardiner is a perfect example of this. As pointed out a few posts ago, his first time trying to make an NHL roster was this year. Hence Anaheim didn't dump him because he failed to make the team (as you suggested).
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Oct 27 @ 7:27 AM ET
And they deemed Rundblad expendable. They saw holes in his game.
- prock



That's different though, even though it's EXACTLY the same situation as Aulie, GArdiner, Colbourne.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Oct 27 @ 8:01 AM ET
#1 Who?

#2 talent is talent. If you make a trade to acquire players that you believe have/will have more value than you are giving up, and/or can help your team immediately you make the deal.

If you are suggesting that they shouldn't have made a deal for Franson because they already have a glut of young Dmen and thus is not needed you are completely lost. Lebda and Slaney are a million times less needed. You make trades that make you better regardless of those things. If you have depth somewhere you can make a trade to shore up elsewhere.

- burn


I have always said I don't want to be negative about the individual kids. My question is primarily about Burke. In the case of Franson, Aulie and Gardiner they are all young guys that their drafting teams decided that they would let go. That alone tells you something about the asset. When each of these deals were done the Kool-aid drinkers where exuberant in their praise of Burke. There was universal glee on the part of many of the posters here that Burke had accomplished something remarkable. If it had been a single transaction I might have been more sympathetic, the fact that he has done multiple transactions involving players from the lower ranks of other teams depth charts tells you something about the Leafs overall talent pool.

I can explain a bit differently. The Kool-aid drinkers squealed with delight when Blowhard repaired the problems he had at center. Over the end of last season and during the summer he acquired Colborne, Connolly and Lombardy in their quest to find a number one center. Again, I don't want to knock any one of those individual players but just by listing them you begin to see the flim flam that Blowhard is tossing up.

On the other side of this equation he gets Steckle for a pick. A guy who is a proven role player who can kill penalties, take face-offs and be a very responsible guy late in the game. A guy who has always been a good third or fourth line player and he comes in and has played a really important part of the Leafs start. This deal was a traditional hockey deal. A team is trying to get down to roster and under the cap and they need to let go of a role player. Important to remember that the deal took place right near the cut off date for completing rosters. Clearly this was a great stand alone decision that puts into perspective the shallow nature of all the other stuff that is been thrown against the wall in hopes that something will stick.

Let's, for the sake of argument, assume that Blowhard had not done all of the stuff he did over the summer other than for the traditional hockey pick up he made for Steckle. The reality is none of it has made any difference, it has just been a lot of noise. Blowhard is essentially harmless, I do not doubt that he is well intentioned. But it is time for all of you who raved about all those great deals he made to come forward and admit that maybe the deals were not as spectacular as you first claimed that they might be. And, not all the GMs on other teams were fools who were outfoxed by the wise Toronto master of the deal. Indeed, there appears to be a growing truth in the legend that Blowhard really was finessed by Murray and mistakenly took Kadri with Cowen still sitting on the board.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Oct 27 @ 8:05 AM ET
And they deemed Rundblad expendable. They saw holes in his game.
- prock


I think that is right or they do not do the deal. Important when you do transactional analysis that you leave all bias outside the evaluation. In this context, clearly St. Louis did not think that Rundblad was the blue chip prospect that others projected him as being.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Oct 27 @ 8:16 AM ET
No guarantee they take Tarasenko.....


And just because one team trades a player doesn't mean that that team didn't want/couldn't find use for him. That's absurd. Are you saying the Oilers in 89 didn't need/want Gretzky anymore? One team trading another doesn't mean that that player is worthless. Jake Gardiner is a perfect example of this. As pointed out a few posts ago, his first time trying to make an NHL roster was this year. Hence Anaheim didn't dump him because he failed to make the team (as you suggested).

- burn


Look there are some basic rules in debate and informed discussion. For example, in politics you should never compare your opponent to anything that is NAZI in nature. It is simply unacceptable. In hockey the rule is you should never compare the Gretzky trade from Edmonton to LA with any other deal that has ever taken place.

I think Gardiner is okay. At the Oshawa prospect tournament he was very good and other than for Zibanejad the best skater there. He has looked good in the exhibition and even better in the early pre-season. But, give it some time and we will see if there is a fatal flaw in his game. We know that is whisper. A team like Anahiem is pretty smart about development. I understand they are very excited about Fowler but that would not be enough to cause them to let go of Gardiner. You have to wonder about what their thinking was based on. Time will tell, all will be revealed as the season unfolds.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Oct 27 @ 8:33 AM ET
Look there are some basic rules in debate and informed discussion. For example, in politics you should never compare your opponent to anything that is NAZI in nature. It is simply unacceptable. In hockey the rule is you should never compare the Gretzky trade from Edmonton to LA with any other deal that has ever taken place.

I think Gardiner is okay. At the Oshawa prospect tournament he was very good and other than for Zibanejad the best skater there. He has looked good in the exhibition and even better in the early pre-season. But, give it some time and we will see if there is a fatal flaw in his game. We know that is whisper. A team like Anahiem is pretty smart about development. I understand they are very excited about Fowler but that would not be enough to cause them to let go of Gardiner. You have to wonder about what their thinking was based on. Time will tell, all will be revealed as the season unfolds.

- spatso

on a similar train of thought, a team like st. Louis, who is very shrewd with their youth, and already short of d prospects, must have seen some serious flaws in Rundblad to dump him like that, when they really do need more d prospects. I can assume that to dump a prospect in a position of need for them, they must have saw some pretty horrible things. If a starving man throws away an apple, that apple is probably rotten.
senstroll
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Oct 27 @ 9:59 AM ET


Let's, for the sake of argument, assume that Blowhard had not done all of the stuff he did over the summer other than for the traditional hockey pick up he made for Steckle. The reality is none of it has made any difference, it has just been a lot of noise. Blowhard is essentially harmless, I do not doubt that he is well intentioned. But it is time for all of you who raved about all those great deals he made to come forward and admit that maybe the deals were not as spectacular as you first claimed that they might be. And, not all the GMs on other teams were fools who were outfoxed by the wise Toronto master of the deal. Indeed, there appears to be a growing truth in the legend that Blowhard really was finessed by Murray and mistakenly took Kadri with Cowen still sitting on the board.

- spatso


If you are saying picking up JML (6 assists in 8 games), Lombardi (1 SHG/GWG), Franson have done nothing for this team so far and had no impact, I dont know what to say.

If nothing else, they have provided depth and probably made a few others step up their game to compete for a job.

the stuff you say sometimes makes me shake my head, take off the hate goggles. you sound stupid
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Oct 27 @ 10:21 AM ET
I have always said I don't want to be negative about the individual kids. My question is primarily about Burke. In the case of Franson, Aulie and Gardiner they are all young guys that their drafting teams decided that they would let go. That alone tells you something about the asset. When each of these deals were done the Kool-aid drinkers where exuberant in their praise of Burke. There was universal glee on the part of many of the posters here that Burke had accomplished something remarkable. If it had been a single transaction I might have been more sympathetic, the fact that he has done multiple transactions involving players from the lower ranks of other teams depth charts tells you something about the Leafs overall talent pool.

I can explain a bit differently. The Kool-aid drinkers squealed with delight when Blowhard repaired the problems he had at center. Over the end of last season and during the summer he acquired Colborne, Connolly and Lombardy in their quest to find a number one center. Again, I don't want to knock any one of those individual players but just by listing them you begin to see the flim flam that Blowhard is tossing up.

On the other side of this equation he gets Steckle for a pick. A guy who is a proven role player who can kill penalties, take face-offs and be a very responsible guy late in the game. A guy who has always been a good third or fourth line player and he comes in and has played a really important part of the Leafs start. This deal was a traditional hockey deal. A team is trying to get down to roster and under the cap and they need to let go of a role player. Important to remember that the deal took place right near the cut off date for completing rosters. Clearly this was a great stand alone decision that puts into perspective the shallow nature of all the other stuff that is been thrown against the wall in hopes that something will stick.

Let's, for the sake of argument, assume that Blowhard had not done all of the stuff he did over the summer other than for the traditional hockey pick up he made for Steckle. The reality is none of it has made any difference, it has just been a lot of noise. Blowhard is essentially harmless, I do not doubt that he is well intentioned. But it is time for all of you who raved about all those great deals he made to come forward and admit that maybe the deals were not as spectacular as you first claimed that they might be. And, not all the GMs on other teams were fools who were outfoxed by the wise Toronto master of the deal. Indeed, there appears to be a growing truth in the legend that Blowhard really was finessed by Murray and mistakenly took Kadri with Cowen still sitting on the board.

- spatso


Based on what exactly?

Don't you think the Leafs need a Kadri more than a Cowen at this point?
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Oct 27 @ 10:23 AM ET
I am sorry but I need to be consistent. I have argued for a long time that teams need to build through the draft and that there is a cycle of renewal. Smart teams figure out how to hit that seam. A bunch of teams just ignore the need to rebuild and they just get worse and worse. I believe the long term interests of the Senators would be better served if they dealt Spezza. This is not intended as a statement against Spezza, I think he is a great player. But, he would bring a great return and accelerate the rebuild of the Senators.
- spatso



But you totally ignore the fact that Spezza has a NTC. Therfore it will not happen. Move on to something else.

At the trade deadline, Defencmen are always the most sought-after commodities.

Ottawa has two who will becoming UFAs, and another a RFA who would attract a lot of interest. Also Konopka, a faceoff specialist will be a UFA and could attract some interest.

Other than those players, I don't see any other players, with contracts beyond this season being offered up for trade, provided they don't have a NTC, becasue those players control their own destinies.
sens rock
Joined: 09.30.2007

Oct 27 @ 10:28 AM ET


Ottawa has two who will becoming UFAs, and another a RFA who would attract a lot of interest. Also Konopka, a faceoff specialist will be a UFA and could attract some interest.

Other than those players, I don't see any other players, with contracts beyond this season being offered up for trade, provided they don't have a NTC, becasue those players control their own destinies.

- Doppleganger


ottawa only has one pending ufa dman.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Oct 27 @ 10:29 AM ET
Prock isn't being serious. Spatso made a very ignorant comment on the fact that if a team trades a prospect it says something about that prospect. In other words, they weren't cut out to make their initial team.

In this scenario, rundblad would fall into that category, along with a lot of other current and past super stars. Again, ignorant comment.

- mfreedman


Right. Wasn't Brayden Schenn traded?
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Oct 27 @ 10:30 AM ET
ottawa only has one pending ufa dman.
- sens rock


No they have two. Kuba and Carkner.
sens rock
Joined: 09.30.2007

Oct 27 @ 10:31 AM ET
No they have two. Kuba and Carkner.
- Doppleganger


my bad.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Oct 27 @ 10:31 AM ET
Right. Wasn't Brayden Schenn traded?
- Doppleganger


Clearly it's because Los Angeles saw big holes in his game, and wanted to dump him.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Oct 27 @ 10:35 AM ET
Clearly it's because Los Angeles saw big holes in his game, and wanted to dump him.
- prock



Also toronto dumped a couple of first rounders and a second in a trade because they knew these picks would never amount to anything in the NHL.
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Oct 27 @ 10:39 AM ET
Also toronto dumped a couple of first rounders and a second in a trade because they knew these picks would never amount to anything in the NHL.
- Doppleganger


For a 21 year-old who's now leading the NHL in scoring
p_zub
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 02.20.2007

Oct 27 @ 10:40 AM ET
For a 21 year-old who's now leading the NHL in scoring
- RogerRoeper


Wait...who is this again?
sens rock
Joined: 09.30.2007

Oct 27 @ 10:45 AM ET
For a 21 year-old who's now leading the NHL in scoring
- RogerRoeper


after 8 games....
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Oct 27 @ 10:52 AM ET
after 8 games....
- sens rock


Actually Phil is on an over 100 point pace the last 40.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Oct 27 @ 10:53 AM ET
Wait...who is this again?
- p_zub



He's saying 21 when the trade was made, NOW leading the NHL in scoring.
sens rock
Joined: 09.30.2007

Oct 27 @ 10:56 AM ET
Actually Phil is on an over 100 point pace the last 40.
- RogerRoeper


his shooting percentage is also 3 times his career average right now and twice that of perry and stamkos last year. Still tho, if he finishes at 15%, thats a 43 goal campaign. it all depends on how long his goaless streaks are.

sens rock
Joined: 09.30.2007

Oct 27 @ 10:56 AM ET
Actually Phil is on an over 100 point pace the last 40.
- RogerRoeper


spezza is the 3rd in scoring since the trade deadline last year. behind perry and sedin.
Morris
Referee
Edmonton Oilers
Location: Hall looks disengaged, NS
Joined: 07.18.2007

Oct 27 @ 11:14 AM ET
Clearly a distortion of the actual context of the exchange of information. The point was initially made about several transactions having been undertaken (eg. Franson, Aulie and Gardiner). My point was simple and clear. Specifically, when a team takes on a group of young players that other teams have decided are expendable it provides at least a notional insight into the quality and depth of a teams talent.

Prock made a very astute observation that the comment about the Leaf prospects should apply equally to Filatov and Rundblad and I agreed with him. Filatov is easy, any team could have had him for a second round pick but there were no takers. Ottawa got him for a third round pick. It was a good deal for Ottawa not because Filatov is such a great talent but because Ottawa is very empty of up front talent.

The Runblad situation is a little different. They dealt for Rundblad rather than take Tarasenko. Ottawa probably did this because they are so gun shy when it comes to taking Russians. As good as Runblad is and may be in the future Tarsenko is a future super star. If Prock asks the question again in five years I am sure everyone will agree that Ottawa should have stuck with the order of things and taken Tarasenko.

- spatso


Burke started with a bare cupboard and replenished it with solid if not unspectacular talents. Further, the assertion that any young player that another team trades means something about that player's talent/future ignores many mitigating factors including the return, the cap situation of the dealing team, and the depth of the dealing team.
mfreedman
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Thornhill, ON
Joined: 10.04.2010

Oct 27 @ 11:27 AM ET
Burke started with a bare cupboard and replenished it with solid if not unspectacular talents. Further, the assertion that any young player that another team trades means something about that player's talent/future ignores many mitigating factors including the return, the cap situation of the dealing team, and the depth of the dealing team.
- Morris


His argument is so general. He will try to change it as it goes from saying 'trading players means the team found somehting wrong witht hem' , to 'well they are still good, but they just didnt work with that team', to 'i only mean that they needed a change of scenery'. If we use his comment, we could easily say there was something wrong with all of the following players:

Brayden Schenn
Wayne Simmonds
Jeff Carter
Mike Richards
Jacob Voracek
Jake Gardiner
Martin Havlat
Dany Heatley
Francois Beuchemin
Nikolai Filatov
David Rundblad
Joe Colborne
Thomas Kaberle
Devin Setoguchi
Brent Burns
Erik Johnson
Chris Stewart
...

Clearly everyone who gets traded sucks right?
senstroll
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Oct 27 @ 11:28 AM ET
Burke started with a bare cupboard and replenished it with solid if not unspectacular talents. Further, the assertion that any young player that another team trades means something about that player's talent/future ignores many mitigating factors including the return, the cap situation of the dealing team, and the depth of the dealing team.
- Morris


The NHL is littered with players what were traded before their potential was realized contradicting spatso's theory. Naslund comes to mind, John Leclair etc, it was because other factors like you mention
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619, 620, 621, 622, 623, 624, 625, 626, 627, 628, 629, 630, 631, 632, 633, 634, 635, 636, 637, 638, 639, 640, 641, 642, 643, 644, 645, 646, 647, 648, 649, 650, 651, 652, 653, 654, 655, 656, 657, 658, 659, 660, 661, 662, 663, 664, 665, 666, 667, 668, 669, 670, 671, 672, 673, 674, 675, 676, 677, 678, 679, 680, 681, 682, 683, 684, 685, 686, 687, 688, 689, 690, 691, 692, 693, 694, 695, 696, 697, 698, 699, 700, 701, 702, 703, 704, 705, 706, 707, 708, 709, 710, 711, 712, 713, 714, 715, 716, 717, 718, 719, 720, 721, 722, 723, 724, 725, 726, 727, 728, 729, 730, 731, 732, 733, 734, 735, 736, 737, 738, 739, 740, 741, 742, 743, 744, 745, 746, 747, 748, 749, 750, 751, 752, 753, 754, 755, 756, 757, 758, 759, 760, 761, 762, 763, 764, 765, 766, 767, 768, 769, 770, 771, 772, 773, 774, 775, 776, 777, 778, 779, 780, 781, 782, 783, 784, 785, 786, 787, 788, 789, 790, 791, 792, 793, 794, 795, 796, 797, 798, 799, 800, 801, 802, 803, 804, 805, 806, 807, 808, 809, 810, 811, 812, 813, 814, 815, 816, 817, 818, 819, 820, 821, 822, 823, 824, 825, 826, 827, 828, 829, 830, 831, 832, 833, 834, 835, 836, 837, 838, 839, 840, 841, 842, 843, 844, 845, 846, 847, 848, 849, 850, 851, 852, 853, 854, 855, 856, 857, 858, 859, 860, 861, 862, 863, 864, 865, 866, 867, 868, 869, 870, 871, 872, 873, 874, 875, 876, 877, 878, 879, 880, 881, 882, 883, 884, 885, 886, 887, 888, 889, 890, 891, 892, 893, 894, 895, 896, 897, 898, 899, 900, 901, 902, 903, 904, 905, 906, 907, 908, 909, 910, 911, 912, 913, 914, 915, 916, 917, 918, 919, 920, 921, 922, 923, 924, 925, 926, 927, 928, 929, 930, 931, 932, 933, 934, 935, 936, 937, 938, 939, 940, 941, 942, 943, 944, 945, 946, 947, 948, 949, 950, 951, 952, 953, 954, 955, 956, 957, 958, 959, 960, 961, 962, 963, 964, 965, 966, 967, 968, 969, 970, 971, 972, 973, 974, 975, 976, 977, 978, 979, 980, 981, 982, 983, 984, 985, 986, 987, 988, 989, 990, 991, 992, 993, 994, 995, 996, 997, 998, 999, 1000, 1001, 1002, 1003, 1004, 1005, 1006, 1007, 1008, 1009, 1010, 1011, 1012, 1013, 1014, 1015, 1016, 1017, 1018, 1019, 1020, 1021, 1022, 1023, 1024, 1025, 1026, 1027, 1028, 1029, 1030, 1031, 1032, 1033, 1034, 1035, 1036, 1037, 1038, 1039, 1040, 1041, 1042, 1043, 1044, 1045, 1046, 1047, 1048, 1049, 1050, 1051, 1052, 1053, 1054, 1055, 1056, 1057, 1058, 1059, 1060, 1061, 1062, 1063, 1064, 1065, 1066, 1067, 1068, 1069, 1070, 1071, 1072, 1073, 1074, 1075, 1076, 1077, 1078, 1079, 1080, 1081, 1082, 1083, 1084, 1085, 1086, 1087, 1088, 1089, 1090, 1091, 1092, 1093, 1094, 1095, 1096, 1097, 1098, 1099, 1100, 1101, 1102, 1103, 1104, 1105, 1106, 1107, 1108, 1109, 1110, 1111, 1112, 1113, 1114, 1115, 1116, 1117, 1118, 1119, 1120, 1121, 1122, 1123, 1124, 1125, 1126, 1127, 1128, 1129, 1130, 1131, 1132, 1133, 1134, 1135, 1136, 1137, 1138, 1139, 1140, 1141, 1142, 1143, 1144, 1145, 1146, 1147, 1148, 1149, 1150, 1151, 1152, 1153, 1154, 1155, 1156  Next