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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
Author Message
GoneFullRetard
Vancouver Canucks
Location: ON
Joined: 07.31.2010

Oct 13 @ 12:45 PM ET
based on?

both are around ppg players, captains of their team, alfie is a more all-round player (playing more on the PK).

- sens rock


If you are seriously favoring Alfredsson over Sundin you have really lost yourself in homerism, sorry.
mfreedman
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Thornhill, ON
Joined: 10.04.2010

Oct 13 @ 12:46 PM ET
think Alfredsson, then take it up a notch or two.
- prock


Both players are elite.

How few players regularly get above a point per game on the season that playe for 70+ games? Not too many.

An elite talent should be one who get above, or very close to a point per game

Alfreddsson had 5 seasons of over a PPG, and Sundin had 9. Just because Sundin had a few more does not mean that Alfredsson is not elite.

For argument sake, should Crosby not be considered elite because his best season is not even half as good as Gretzky's best season?
sens rock
Joined: 09.30.2007

Oct 13 @ 12:52 PM ET
If you are seriously favoring Alfredsson over Sundin you have really lost yourself in homerism, sorry.
- GoneFullRetard


i would take sundin over alfie. big centre who for the most part never had a winger that suited his skill. I just don't think he's that far ahead of alfie.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Oct 13 @ 12:55 PM ET
based on?

both are around ppg players, captains of their team, alfie is a more all-round player (playing more on the PK).

- sens rock



Point per game average - career - Alfie, under ppg, Sundin over.
Career goals - Alfie 391, Sundin 565
Career points - Alfie 1026, Sundin 1349

As was mentioned above, seasons of 80 or more points - Alfie 4, Sundin 6

Single season career best, goals - Alfie 43, Sundin 47
Single season career best, points - Alfie 103, Sundin 114
Seasons over 40 goals - Alfie 2, Sundin 3

career playoff points - Alfie 82, Sundin 88 (alfredsson played 16 more games).

seasons under 70 points - Sundin 3 (rookie, and two heavily shortened seasons), Alfie 5




You could go on for days. There is next to nothing Alfie has on Sundin.

that's why he's a step or two above Alfredsson.....

That's just how it is.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Oct 13 @ 12:56 PM ET
Both players are elite.

How few players regularly get above a point per game on the season that playe for 70+ games? Not too many.

An elite talent should be one who get above, or very close to a point per game

Alfreddsson had 5 seasons of over a PPG, and Sundin had 9. Just because Sundin had a few more does not mean that Alfredsson is not elite.

For argument sake, should Crosby not be considered elite because his best season is not even half as good as Gretzky's best season?

- mfreedman



Yes, there is another stat, among hundreds, where Sundin is a notch or two above.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Oct 13 @ 12:57 PM ET
i would take sundin over alfie. big centre who for the most part never had a winger that suited his skill. I just don't think he's that far ahead of alfie.
- sens rock



As I said, a notch or two. I don't know why you're trying to argue it if you agree.
Leafy_84
Toronto Maple Leafs
Joined: 12.29.2008

Oct 13 @ 12:57 PM ET
Sundin > Alfie

End of story.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Oct 13 @ 1:01 PM ET
Sundin > Alfie

End of story.

- Leafy_84



pretty much.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Oct 13 @ 1:02 PM ET
Both players are elite.

- mfreedman



Oh, and personally, I guess that depends on how loose your definition of elite is. I seem to notice that people throw the term around quite liberally around here.
sens rock
Joined: 09.30.2007

Oct 13 @ 1:11 PM ET
As I said, a notch or two. I don't know why you're trying to argue it if you agree.
- prock


i think they are in the same group but i would take the centre over a winger.

Alfie's main deficiency with all the stats you posted is he wasn't nearly as healthy as sundin was throughout his career. the stats per game are pretty much equal.
sens rock
Joined: 09.30.2007

Oct 13 @ 1:12 PM ET
Oh, and personally, I guess that depends on how loose your definition of elite is. I seem to notice that people throw the term around quite liberally around here.
- prock


i think neither were elite. Elite refers to the top 2-3 in at their position.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Oct 13 @ 1:20 PM ET
i think they are in the same group but i would take the centre over a winger.

Alfie's main deficiency with all the stats you posted is he wasn't nearly as healthy as sundin was throughout his career. the stats per game are pretty much equal.

- sens rock


That's one difference. The bigger difference is that Alfie only had a few seasons at the top, production wise, while him, Spezza, and Heatley clicked. Sundin consistently put up points no matter who he was paired with, and actually very rarely had good linemates.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Oct 13 @ 1:20 PM ET
i think neither were elite. Elite refers to the top 2-3 in at their position.
- sens rock


I wouldn't use the term elite to describe them either.
sens rock
Joined: 09.30.2007

Oct 13 @ 1:39 PM ET
That's one difference. The bigger difference is that Alfie only had a few seasons at the top, production wise, while him, Spezza, and Heatley clicked. Sundin consistently put up points no matter who he was paired with, and actually very rarely had good linemates.
- prock


sundin also had 2 of his best 3 years with the nordiques as they were trending up to a stanley cup winning team. he only put up "top" points once after that settling in to just under a ppg pace once he was traded.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Oct 13 @ 1:49 PM ET
sundin also had 2 of his best 3 years with the nordiques as they were trending up to a stanley cup winning team. he only put up "top" points once after that settling in to just under a ppg pace once he was traded.
- sens rock



Yeah, he was almost exactly a point per game with the Leafs his entire career. Just over. 3 more points than games played. so roughly an 82 points per year player. Without the Spezza and Heatley combo that tore up the league for a few years (we'll use the 3 big years), Alfredsson is 747 points in 835 games. So, roughly a low 70s point player. Roughly what I said.... Alfie was a low 70s point player outside those years. A notch or two below Sundin. Pretty consistent with everything I've said.

Although, I'm not sure why you would want to exclude those years. We were talking about the players, over their careers, weren't we?
senstroll
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Oct 13 @ 1:55 PM ET
sundin also had 2 of his best 3 years with the nordiques as they were trending up to a stanley cup winning team. he only put up "top" points once after that settling in to just under a ppg pace once he was traded.
- sens rock


Good point, if you put him with good players (check the nodiques that season, 6 players with 25+ goals). He puts up much better stats, when you put him with Hoglund and Reichel not so much
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Oct 13 @ 1:58 PM ET
Good point, if you put him with good players (check the nodiques that season, 6 players with 25+ goals). He puts up much better stats, when you put him with Hoglund and Reichel not so much
- senstroll



makes you wonder if he could have broken 1700 or 1800 points had he stayed with the Avs/Nords.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Oct 13 @ 2:02 PM ET
Sundin > Alfie

End of story.

- Leafy_84


Only one small but important factor to add to this discussion. Alfie is loved and revered by Ottawa fans. Sundin was never fully accepted by all of Leaf nation. Cherry led a group of back biters who always knocked Sunding for his lack of leadership and they constantly compared his leadership style to Dougie and Wendell with the implicit suggestion that Sundin was not up to their standards.

Alfredsen, on the other hand, has a relationship with the Ottawa fans that is more in line with Ray Bourque in Boston. If Alfredsen asks for a chance to make a run at the Cup, Murray will trade him to a team that gives him the best opportunity and will only ask for a minimum return. I could see Alfredsen going to Pittsburgh for a second round pick (or less). Ottawa is a class act and they will make it about Alfie and not about the team. He deserves that and most Ottawa fans would cheer for whatever team he is traded to during a Stanley Cup run. Having said that I do not expect that Alfredsen will be traded, he will retire at the end of this year having spent his entire NHL career playing for Ottawa.
senstroll
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Oct 13 @ 2:07 PM ET
Only one small but important factor to add to this discussion. Alfie is loved and revered by Ottawa fans. Sundin was never fully accepted by all of Leaf nation. Cherry led a group of back biters who always knocked Sunding for his lack of leadership and they constantly compared his leadership style to Dougie and Wendell with the implicit suggestion that Sundin was not up to their standards.

Alfredsen, on the other hand, has a relationship with the Ottawa fans that is more in line with Ray Bourque in Boston. If Alfredsen asks for a chance to make a run at the Cup, Murray will trade him to a team that gives him the best opportunity and will only ask for a minimum return. I could see Alfredsen going to Pittsburgh for a second round pick (or less). Ottawa is a class act and they will make it about Alfie and not about the team. He deserves that and most Ottawa fans would cheer for whatever team he is traded to during a Stanley Cup run. Having said that I do not expect that Alfredsen will be traded, he will retire at the end of this year having spent his entire NHL career playing for Ottawa.

- spatso


spatso BFF man crush on Alfie > Sundin > Alfie
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Oct 13 @ 2:20 PM ET
Only one small but important factor to add to this discussion. Alfie is loved and revered by Ottawa fans. Sundin was never fully accepted by all of Leaf nation. Cherry led a group of back biters who always knocked Sunding for his lack of leadership and they constantly compared his leadership style to Dougie and Wendell with the implicit suggestion that Sundin was not up to their standards.

Alfredsen, on the other hand, has a relationship with the Ottawa fans that is more in line with Ray Bourque in Boston. If Alfredsen asks for a chance to make a run at the Cup, Murray will trade him to a team that gives him the best opportunity and will only ask for a minimum return. I could see Alfredsen going to Pittsburgh for a second round pick (or less). Ottawa is a class act and they will make it about Alfie and not about the team. He deserves that and most Ottawa fans would cheer for whatever team he is traded to during a Stanley Cup run. Having said that I do not expect that Alfredsen will be traded, he will retire at the end of this year having spent his entire NHL career playing for Ottawa.

- spatso


I suppose it says a lot about someone, who would prefer to play for Ottawa over winning a cup. I think it says a lot about his priorities, and maybe a little about why Ottawa could never win a cup. It's obviously not his priority.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Oct 13 @ 3:05 PM ET
I suppose it says a lot about someone, who would prefer to play for Ottawa over winning a cup. I think it says a lot about his priorities, and maybe a little about why Ottawa could never win a cup. It's obviously not his priority.
- prock


Nobody liked the fiasco around Sundin's last year in Toronto. Sundin was a class act, he deserved much better treatment than he got from the Leafs, the media and a small but loud group of fans who wanted to dump him for the best offer. I did not like what happened.
mfreedman
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Thornhill, ON
Joined: 10.04.2010

Oct 13 @ 4:43 PM ET
Nobody liked the fiasco around Sundin's last year in Toronto. Sundin was a class act, he deserved much better treatment than he got from the Leafs, the media and a small but loud group of fans who wanted to dump him for the best offer. I did not like what happened.
- spatso


This is completely unfair. He deserved better from the media, not from Toronto.

Most Toronto fans would have been happy if he decided to leave in a trad,e or if he chose to retire as a leaf.

The only part I didn't like was how long he waited after the season to decide what he wanted to do. At that point we couldn't wait anymore and had to go another direction, which led him to Vancouver.

I fully appreciate everything he did for Toronto, and I wish it had ended a little bit better, but NO REAL LEAF FAN will look at the situation and negate everything he did for the Leafs just because of the little mess at the end.

He was a class act, and he is still missed by Leaf fans
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Oct 13 @ 11:07 PM ET
Nobody liked the fiasco around Sundin's last year in Toronto. Sundin was a class act, he deserved much better treatment than he got from the Leafs, the media and a small but loud group of fans who wanted to dump him for the best offer. I did not like what happened.
- spatso


Sundin did not help himself when he contradicted everything he said as to why he didn't waive his NTC when he signed in Vancouver.
flamminghead
Calgary Flames
Location: As good as they are in the off, AB
Joined: 09.02.2009

Oct 14 @ 2:16 AM ET
Leafs
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Oct 14 @ 2:29 AM ET
Point per game average - career - Alfie, under ppg, Sundin over.
Career goals - Alfie 391, Sundin 565
Career points - Alfie 1026, Sundin 1349

As was mentioned above, seasons of 80 or more points - Alfie 4, Sundin 6

Single season career best, goals - Alfie 43, Sundin 47
Single season career best, points - Alfie 103, Sundin 114
Seasons over 40 goals - Alfie 2, Sundin 3

career playoff points - Alfie 82, Sundin 88 (alfredsson played 16 more games).

seasons under 70 points - Sundin 3 (rookie, and two heavily shortened seasons), Alfie 5




You could go on for days. There is next to nothing Alfie has on Sundin.

that's why he's a step or two above Alfredsson.....

That's just how it is.

- prock


Alfredsson has a Cup Finals and a Calder trophy, Sundin neither.
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