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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
Author Message
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Jan 15 @ 4:50 AM ET
What you're not smart enough to understand, is that ALL teams in the NHL have internal budgets.

Some teams choose to spend to the Cap, and they are handcuffed when it comes to player trades and UFA acquisitions.

But some teams don't have this problem, because there is CAP ROOM between their internal budget, and the Cap, and when the time comes, they can and will spend what it takes to improve their roster.


The leafs have zero Cap flexibility and cannot improve their roster as they would wish. Whereas the Senators have more Cap space than they need, and have the flexibility that they need to sign players coming out of their ELCs and RFAs like Mika Zibanejad, Alex Chiasson, Mike Hoffman, Jean-Gabriel Pageau and Mark Stone before next season.

I've posted recent quotes from the Owner, who says he will spend the necessary money when the time comes to re-sign these and other players.

Your whole premise for this comparison pivots on the myth in you mind that the Senators will never spend more than they are today, and everyone knows that is not the case, the Owner has publicly gone on the record, on TV, in print and on local radio saying the opposite of what you, and you alone think is going to happen.


http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam.../2014/12/15/22133346.html

http://sports.nationalpos...g-leagues-lowest-payroll/

please post a link where he says he won't increase his budget.







BTW, when is Ryan going to sign with the Flyers?

- Doppleganger



I guess they weren't stupid enough to offer him more than 5mil.

All teams have an internal cap??? Okay, but if its miles above the salary cap, does it matter? Its different when its miles under the cap like the send.
Pecafan Fan
Montreal Canadiens
Location: Pacioretty, c'est mou comme d'la marde - Gilbert Delorme
Joined: 01.20.2009

Jan 15 @ 7:03 AM ET
Ryan has more than twice as many points as Clarkson.

Not sure how they can be lumped in the same conversation.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Jan 15 @ 7:31 AM ET
Ryan has more than twice as many points as Clarkson.

Not sure how they can be lumped in the same conversation.

- Pecafan Fan



Ask prock, that was his idea, so I went along to show how absurd that comparison was.

I thought we agreed it would be more fair to bobby Ryan to use JVR?

Maybe David clarkson would be better right now though.

I think part of the problem is, now that Ryan has his new contract, he's probably struggling to find motivation. .

- prock



He also gets his threads mixed up, so it's no wonder he makes so little sense.

prock thinks that Ryan is already being paid under the terms of what his new contract that kicks in next season are.

He also thinks that Ryan is bolting to Philadelphia next season, and that Carey Price is not an Elite starting goaltender in the NHL.
Pecafan Fan
Montreal Canadiens
Location: Pacioretty, c'est mou comme d'la marde - Gilbert Delorme
Joined: 01.20.2009

Jan 15 @ 7:37 AM ET
Clarkson has 4 pts in his last 20 games.
He had an OK start to the season and is now back to last season's Clarkson.

Ryan has 16 pts in his last 20 games.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Jan 15 @ 8:19 AM ET
Clarkson has 4 pts in his last 20 games.
He had an OK start to the season and is now back to last season's Clarkson.

Ryan has 16 pts in his last 20 games.

- Pecafan Fan



Don't use facts with prock, you have to use what he has going on inside the fantasy world that operates inside his head.

He thinks having little to no cap space in which to operate (leafs $480,833), is somehow better than having tonnes of cap space (Senators $13,503,333), in which to improve a teams roster today and going forward.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Jan 15 @ 9:02 AM ET
Don't use facts with prock, you have to use what he has going on inside the fantasy world that operates inside his head.

He thinks having little to no cap space in which to operate (leafs $480,833), is somehow better than having tonnes of cap space (Senators $13,503,333), in which to improve a teams roster today and going forward.

- Doppleganger

I think he thinks having money to spend in the organization is better than not having money to spend.

Think of the countless teams over the years that have supposedly been in "cap hell" that would ruin them and force them to move their stars and then it never happens. Cap space can be cleared. Overcoming an owner who just looks at the team as a cash cow and doesn't bother spending more? That's a problem.


No team goes to the finals without being pretty damn close to, or over the cap. Budget teams never make it.
Cape Breton Bruins
Boston Bruins
Location: 771 pages of no one caring, AB
Joined: 11.26.2008

Jan 15 @ 9:24 AM ET
Ryan has more than twice as many points as Clarkson.

Not sure how they can be lumped in the same conversation.

- Pecafan Fan

It's easily the most ridiculous assertion in a thread riddled with ridiculous assertions.
Cape Breton Bruins
Boston Bruins
Location: 771 pages of no one caring, AB
Joined: 11.26.2008

Jan 15 @ 9:26 AM ET
right there at the end
- daeth



Touche
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Jan 15 @ 10:06 AM ET
Ryan has more than twice as many points as Clarkson.

Not sure how they can be lumped in the same conversation.

- Pecafan Fan


In the other thread about kessel vs Ryan, dopes spoke of then being goal scorers, and paid for that, not points.

He knew kessel would blow him away on points, was hoping he could keep a goals close. He was wrong.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Jan 15 @ 10:06 AM ET
It's easily the most ridiculous assertion in a thread riddled with ridiculous assertions.
- Cape Breton Bruins


Hey man, just looking at the facts. Clarkson almost as good a goal scorer as bobby Ryan.
Cape Breton Bruins
Boston Bruins
Location: 771 pages of no one caring, AB
Joined: 11.26.2008

Jan 15 @ 10:26 AM ET
Hey man, just looking at the facts. Clarkson almost as good a goal scorer as bobby Ryan.
- prock

Sounds good buddy
daeth
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Drink full, and descend, ON
Joined: 09.15.2005

Jan 15 @ 10:32 AM ET


Touche

- Cape Breton Bruins

It was a pretty good trick question but I'm too sharp for that!
Cape Breton Bruins
Boston Bruins
Location: 771 pages of no one caring, AB
Joined: 11.26.2008

Jan 15 @ 10:35 AM ET
Clarkson with the Leafs:

104GP 14G 10A 24PTS -21

Almost as many dashes as points. Good job Clarky 2.0. Even the year he scored 30 he was a -8 which tells me he hooked up with a great PP. He seems to be only useful down low on the PP to which the Leafs have decided against using him on effectively making him a $5.25m/ year paperweight. And only for five more years with a no trade and no buyout clause!

Pecafan Fan
Montreal Canadiens
Location: Pacioretty, c'est mou comme d'la marde - Gilbert Delorme
Joined: 01.20.2009

Jan 15 @ 10:41 AM ET
Clarkson with the Leafs:

104GP 14G 10A 24PTS -21

Almost as many dashes as points. Good job Clarky 2.0. Even the year he scored 30 he was a -8 which tells me he hooked up with a great PP. He seems to be only useful down low on the PP to which the Leafs have decided against using him on effectively making him a $5.25m/ year paperweight. And only for five more years with a no trade and no buyout clause!

- Cape Breton Bruins


Bobby Ryan last 109 games:

35 goals, 43 assists, 78 points, +15
Cape Breton Bruins
Boston Bruins
Location: 771 pages of no one caring, AB
Joined: 11.26.2008

Jan 15 @ 10:43 AM ET
Ryan with the Sens:

109 GP 35G 43A 78PTS +15

Really good second liner numbers which I believe him to be although he produced them on a team void of higher end offensive talent and faces the oppositions top defenders every game. His is new contract high? Sure it is. Has he proven to produce when playing with better players? Absolutely. I'm not saying Melnyk is about to bring in Malkin to play with Ryan but even a modest upgrade in offensive talent to take some heat off of Ryan and id be surprised if 70pts a year wasn't an average season for him.
Cape Breton Bruins
Boston Bruins
Location: 771 pages of no one caring, AB
Joined: 11.26.2008

Jan 15 @ 10:45 AM ET
Bobby Ryan last 109 games:

35 goals, 43 assists, 78 points, +15

- Pecafan Fan

I think our boy prock just gets bored at the office. This is so nonsensical of a discussing. Ryan is at a minimum twice the player Clarkson is offensively.
the_cause2000
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Not quite my tempo
Joined: 02.26.2007

Jan 15 @ 10:50 AM ET
Ryan benefited from his environment in Anaheim. He's pretty much alone in Ottawa and doing not too bad, considering the talent they've lost since his acquisition.
Clarkson had a couple amazing seasons benefiting from his PP role in NJ. He's not in that role in Toronto and has been a train wreck, in relation to expectations coming in.

overall I would take both players on my team any day, but Clarkson is over-paid considering his role.

Ryan's situation reminds me a lot of Sundin's. He's 'the man' in Ottawa but is in a poor situation to produce big numbers
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Jan 15 @ 10:52 AM ET
Ryan with the Sens:

109 GP 35G 43A 78PTS +15

Really good second liner numbers which I believe him to be although he produced them on a team void of higher end offensive talent and faces the oppositions top defenders every game. His is new contract high? Sure it is. Has he proven to produce when playing with better players? Absolutely. I'm not saying Melnyk is about to bring in Malkin to play with Ryan but even a modest upgrade in offensive talent to take some heat off of Ryan and id be surprised if 70pts a year wasn't an average season for him.

- Cape Breton Bruins



A modest upgrade is Getzlaf and Perry? Because that's his CAREER HIGHS with them. That's a better average than his average with two of the best players on the planet.

He was closer to mid 50s his last year with those guys.

If that's his career best with Getzlaf and Perry, I'd have to imagine you think a "modest upgrade" would mean someone better than those two? So, I guess if you put him on a line with Malkin and Crosby, he might hit that.....

I'd suggest that, given the last several years of results, some of those WITH more than a "modest upgrade", he couldn't produce that, what you see now is what you get.
Cape Breton Bruins
Boston Bruins
Location: 771 pages of no one caring, AB
Joined: 11.26.2008

Jan 15 @ 10:54 AM ET
A modest upgrade is Getzlaf and Perry? Because that's his CAREER HIGHS with them. That's a better average than his average with two of the best players on the planet.

He was closer to mid 50s his last year with those guys.

If that's his career best with Getzlaf and Perry, I'd have to imagine you think a "modest upgrade" would mean someone better than those two? So, I guess if you put him on a line with Malkin and Crosby, he might hit that.....

I'd suggest that, given the last several years of results, some of those WITH more than a "modest upgrade", he couldn't produce that, what you see now is what you get.

- prock

I meant 60 pts lol
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Jan 15 @ 10:55 AM ET
I meant 60 pts lol
- Cape Breton Bruins



I think that's reasonable.
Cape Breton Bruins
Boston Bruins
Location: 771 pages of no one caring, AB
Joined: 11.26.2008

Jan 15 @ 11:01 AM ET
I think that's reasonable.
- prock

He's a second liner playing a role he's not good enough for and he's holding his own. Personally I'd take Ryan at $7m and change for 55-60pts a year playing against other teams top units over Clarkson at 30 pts for $5.25m playing against weaker opposition but that's just me. Some dude on the Internet.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Jan 15 @ 11:07 AM ET
He's a second liner playing a role he's not good enough for and he's holding his own. Personally I'd take Ryan at $7m and change for 55-60pts a year playing against other teams top units over Clarkson at 30 pts for $5.25m playing against weaker opposition but that's just me. Some dude on the Internet.
- Cape Breton Bruins



I think most people would. I more think it's a bit of a joke that their prized $7M goal scorer is only ahead of David Clarkson due to a hat trick he scored in one game a few weeks back. Clarkson was keeping pace.

You'd hope for more, and I mean WAY more, out of a $7M player. That contract was clearly given to him based on some inflated totals and play from his days with Getzlaf and Perry. That's a huge contract for a second liner.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Jan 15 @ 11:09 AM ET
In the other thread about kessel vs Ryan, dopes spoke of then being goal scorers, and paid for that, not points.

He knew kessel would blow him away on points, was hoping he could keep a goals close. He was wrong.

- prock



Quote please, or are you making stuff up again, a I don't recall making that point. The originator of that thread set out the parameters, not me or you.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Jan 15 @ 11:16 AM ET
Ryan benefited from his environment in Anaheim. He's pretty much alone in Ottawa and doing not too bad, considering the talent they've lost since his acquisition.
Clarkson had a couple amazing seasons benefiting from his PP role in NJ. He's not in that role in Toronto and has been a train wreck, in relation to expectations coming in.

overall I would take both players on my team any day, but Clarkson is over-paid considering his role.

Ryan's situation reminds me a lot of Sundin's. He's 'the man' in Ottawa but is in a poor situation to produce big numbers

- the_cause2000




So what I want to know, is who made the decision to sign Clarkson, knowing his role with the Devils, and why has the leafs not used him in that role more than they have?

Did they sign him to keep him away from a competitor?

Did coaches that have been fired since bringing in Clarkson fail to listen to management and how they wanted him used, or did management supply the coaching staff with the wrong pieces to the puzzle they were working on?

It just seem as though they're not on the same page.

Cape Breton Bruins
Boston Bruins
Location: 771 pages of no one caring, AB
Joined: 11.26.2008

Jan 15 @ 11:18 AM ET
I think most people would. I more think it's a bit of a joke that their prized $7M goal scorer is only ahead of David Clarkson due to a hat trick he scored in one game a few weeks back. Clarkson was keeping pace.

You'd hope for more, and I mean WAY more, out of a $7M player. That contract was clearly given to him based on some inflated totals and play from his days with Getzlaf and Perry. That's a huge contract for a second liner.

- prock

I don't disagree with you in regards to Ryan's status as a second liner or his inflated contract.
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