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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
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burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Jan 7 @ 8:57 AM ET
The way they are playing, they could probably win the Cup this season.

3 Cps in like 5 years is worth a little cap struggles for the next few seasons imho.

- Pecafan Fan



yup. and even with the struggles coming up they're still going to have kane and toews + so they're still going to be good.
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Jan 7 @ 9:02 AM ET
It really seems like it. For the first time they actually have guys getting paid market value. If anyone can do it they can though. Chicago has been great at cutting guys loose right before their big payday without dropping off. Byfuglien, Versteeg, Bolland, etc.
- daeth


they're going to need to sign/call up 9-10 players for next season, and (assuming the cap is around 72-74mil) they only have about 7-8 mil to get all those guys...........in there, they have to re-sign Saad and Kruger
daeth
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Drink full, and descend, ON
Joined: 09.15.2005

Jan 7 @ 9:11 AM ET
The way they are playing, they could probably win the Cup this season.

3 Cups in like 5 years is worth a little cap struggles for the next few seasons imho.

- Pecafan Fan

just one cup win is worth that lol
senstroll
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Jan 7 @ 9:13 AM ET
When was the last time a team won a cup with a winger leading the way?

Teams that win the Cup almost always have a strong high scoring, two way Center to lead them.

2014 Anze Kopitar
2013 Jonathan Toews
2012 Anze Kopitar
2011 David Krejci
2010 Jonathan Toews
2009 Sidney Crosby
2008 Pavel Datsyuk
2007 Ryan Getzlaf
2006 Eric Staal
2004 Brad Richards

Just the last 10 Cups...........

- Doppleganger


yes exactly..so why is kessel getting poop on..he didnt build the team
he does what he is paid to do... those who are upset he is not toews or getzlaf need to realize he never was and never will be... he is an elite scorer who has some warts yes... but he is farthest from the leafs problems.. look at the man who put this team together (Nonis)
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Jan 7 @ 9:28 AM ET
I know you're not stupid.
I'm sure you've heard this many times.
Stanley cup contending teams are built with strength down the middle, starting with a good Starting goaltender and at least one good two way center.

That is how the majority of Stanley Cup winners have been built.

I know you know this to be true, and realize that the leafs don't have a NHL number one line, two way center, comparable to anyone in the above list.

The leafs are not going to be a Cup contender with a high scoring winger, who won't play a 200 foot game, as their center piece, and building the team around him.

- Doppleganger

Leaf's center depth is improving as Kadri and Holland develop... And we'll see what Nylander has in the next few years.

And MSL was the main piece Tampa built around. They also had other fantastic pieces, obviously, but St. Louis was the biggest.

And in the spirit of this thread, Ottawa seems to be building around a 2nd line winger in Ryan, and a defenseman who has a weaker defensive game than Kessel.

Try finding a team that won a cup with a combo like that.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Jan 7 @ 9:34 AM ET
Keith and Hossa are on cap cheating contracts. That's largely why they've been able to keep such an elite roster.

Smart cap management is key to winning though, it really is.

edit: at least if you want to continue being a contender anyway

- daeth

They know when to get rid of guys and how to develop players to step into their roles, and where to find bargains.

The front office guys the Leafs have seem to be following their example with finding the bargain guys, and they knew to cut a guy who was asking for too much in Kulemin, a guy that previous managements would have kept... Same with Bolland, though they still fought a little too hard to keep him... And between players developing from within and bargain signings, they haven't missed either guy at all. Raymond, too.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Jan 7 @ 12:11 PM ET
yes exactly..so why is kessel getting poop on..he didnt build the team
he does what he is paid to do... those who are upset he is not toews or getzlaf need to realize he never was and never will be... he is an elite scorer who has some warts yes... but he is farthest from the leafs problems.. look at the man who put this team together (Nonis)

- senstroll


So is Nonis next to go?
Pecafan Fan
Montreal Canadiens
Location: Pacioretty, c'est mou comme d'la marde - Gilbert Delorme
Joined: 01.20.2009

Jan 7 @ 12:22 PM ET
So is Nonis next to go?
- Doppleganger


Yes.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Jan 7 @ 12:24 PM ET
Leaf's center depth is improving as Kadri and Holland develop... And we'll see what Nylander has in the next few years.

And MSL was the main piece Tampa built around. They also had other fantastic pieces, obviously, but St. Louis was the biggest.

And in the spirit of this thread, Ottawa seems to be building around a 2nd line winger in Ryan, and a defenseman who has a weaker defensive game than Kessel.

Try finding a team that won a cup with a combo like that.

- Feeling Glucky?



I've never said that the current Senators' roster is built to contend for a Cup, at this time.

They need to develop or acquire a solid two way scoring center or two, and develop or acquire a solid pair of shutdown Dmen.

There are players on the current roster that are being developed for these roles, but are a work in progress, and there are some promising signs they will grow into these roles.

Ottawa has tonnes of cap space, and when the time comes, the GM will trade for, or acquire through free agency, players to fillin the required roles at that time.


Teams need to draft, or acquire through trades, young players or prospects and develop them to be the core of their team. Ottawa has done well in this area for a few years now.



BTW, if you're referring to Bobby Ryan, he's playing on Ottawas' top scoring line, which starts most of the games I've watched, so is the "first" line as far as I'm concerned.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Jan 7 @ 12:44 PM ET
I've never said that the current Senators' roster is built to contend for a Cup, at this time.

They need to develop or acquire a solid two way scoring center or two, and develop or acquire a solid pair of shutdown Dmen.

There are players on the current roster that are being developed for these roles, but are a work in progress, and there are some promising signs they will grow into these roles.

Ottawa has tonnes of cap space, and when the time comes, the GM will trade for, or acquire through free agency, players to fillin the required roles at that time.


Teams need to draft, or acquire through trades, young players or prospects and develop them to be the core of their team. Ottawa has done well in this area for a few years now.



BTW, if you're referring to Bobby Ryan, he's playing on Ottawas' top scoring line, which starts most of the games I've watched, so is the "first" line as far as I'm concerned.

- Doppleganger


Well sure, you're pointing out the Leafs aren't building around a "high scoring, strong, two way centre".

When was the last time a team won a cup with a winger leading the way?

Teams that win the Cup almost always have a strong high scoring, two way Center to lead them.

- Doppleganger


I think his point is, the Sens aren't either. Their number one centre isn't really first line material at either end of the rink. On a contending team, he isn't even second line material at either end of the rink.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say, not a single player in the Sens organization projects into that, either. Certainly not Mika Zibanejad. Curtis Lazar definitely doesn't fit the bill. And Bobby Ryan, a soft, one dimensional, slightly above average overpaid winger, certainly doesn't either.

For that matter, I can't say I recall too many teams being built around a one dimensional offensive Dman either.

The Sens at this point, are most reliant on a goalie almost 34 years of age. In the spirit of the thread, you should probably not be throwing stones. Tonnes of cap space that they're too cheap to spend, and a bottom rated prospect group. Not good. A disaster in fact.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Jan 7 @ 12:59 PM ET
I've never said that the current Senators' roster is built to contend for a Cup, at this time.

They need to develop or acquire a solid two way scoring center or two, and develop or acquire a solid pair of shutdown Dmen.

There are players on the current roster that are being developed for these roles, but are a work in progress, and there are some promising signs they will grow into these roles.

Ottawa has tonnes of cap space, and when the time comes, the GM will trade for, or acquire through free agency, players to fillin the required roles at that time.


Teams need to draft, or acquire through trades, young players or prospects and develop them to be the core of their team. Ottawa has done well in this area for a few years now.



BTW, if you're referring to Bobby Ryan, he's playing on Ottawas' top scoring line, which starts most of the games I've watched, so is the "first" line as far as I'm concerned.

- Doppleganger

Can't spend money you don't have...

And by your logic, Malkin is a second liner.
the_cause2000
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Not quite my tempo
Joined: 02.26.2007

Jan 7 @ 1:05 PM ET
When was the last time a team won a cup with a winger leading the way?

Teams that win the Cup almost always have a strong high scoring, two way Center to lead them.

2014 Anze Kopitar
2013 Jonathan Toews
2012 Anze Kopitar
2011 David Krejci
2010 Jonathan Toews
2009 Sidney Crosby
2008 Pavel Datsyuk
2007 Ryan Getzlaf
2006 Eric Staal
2004 Brad Richards

Just the last 10 Cups...........

- Doppleganger


looking at this list, with the exception of Detroit, it seems the one pattern is you need to suck for a long time, draft in the top 5 spots and hit the jackpot on a superstar or two.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Jan 7 @ 2:40 PM ET
Can't spend money you don't have...

And by your logic, Malkin is a second liner.

- Feeling Glucky?


On his current team. Brilliant observation by you, I'm impressed, and that's hard to do.

Would he be a second liner on the leafs?
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Jan 7 @ 2:42 PM ET
looking at this list, with the exception of Detroit, it seems the one pattern is you need to suck for a long time, draft in the top 5 spots and hit the jackpot on a superstar or two.
- the_cause2000



You have point. Discussed at length in this old article. http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=690466
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Jan 7 @ 2:46 PM ET
On his current team. Brilliant observation by you, I'm impressed, and that's hard to do.

Would he be a second liner on the leafs?

- Doppleganger



Very simple then. Bobby Ryan, is a first liner, on his team. Would he be so on a contending team? Nope. second line.

Kyle Turris, first line centre, on his team. On a contender? Third.

Malkin would not be second line on the Leafs. He'd be first line. Turris would be third line. Bobby Ryan would be second line.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Jan 7 @ 3:00 PM ET
Very simple then. Bobby Ryan, is a first liner, on his team. Would he be so on a contending team? Nope. second line.

Kyle Turris, first line centre, on his team. On a contender? Third.

Malkin would not be second line on the Leafs. He'd be first line. Turris would be third line. Bobby Ryan would be second line.

- prock



So you agree that the leafs don't have a first line center, that would be part of the puzzle that toronto has been trying to piece together to bring a Cup to toronto.


So how is toronto going to acquire the prototypical first line NHL center? By trading for him, as in the rumours involving Eric Stahl, by drafting him, as in Nylander?
senstroll
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Jan 7 @ 3:56 PM ET
So is Nonis next to go?
- Doppleganger


I think a player or two go before him
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Jan 7 @ 4:17 PM ET
I think a player or two go before him
- senstroll



So given the leafs cap restrictions on their ability to trade a number of players (high cap hit/long term contracts), who can they realistically trade, and what would they be looking for in return?
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Jan 7 @ 4:19 PM ET
So you agree that the leafs don't have a first line center, that would be part of the puzzle that toronto has been trying to piece together to bring a Cup to toronto.


So how is toronto going to acquire the prototypical first line NHL center? By trading for him, as in the rumours involving Eric Stahl, by drafting him, as in Nylander?

- Doppleganger

That is correct, I think if the Leafs would like to win a cup, they’ll need to improve at the 1st line C spot.

I don’t think any team knows for certain where they’ll fill their holes. I doubt Ottawa knows where they’ll get their 1C, 1RW,1LW, 2C, 1D, etc, etc…. It would be great Nylander filled that role. He has decent potential for it. We’ll see.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Jan 7 @ 4:50 PM ET
So who do the leafs trade to open up cap space, to bring in a first line Center along the lines of a Tyler Seguin, Ryan Getzlaf, Evgeni Malkin, Steven Stamkos or Tyler Johnson?
- Doppleganger



Well, if it's Nylander, they won't really have to open up cap space. If it's by trade, it would depend on who they're trading out. If it's a free agent signing, the best candidates would be Lupul, Gardiner, Franson.

Without knowing the scenario, I can't really answer that. It's no different than asking you who you think the Sens would trade to find the money to pay a 1C, 1LW, 1RW, 2C, etc, etc, etc.
Cape Breton Bruins
Boston Bruins
Location: 771 pages of no one caring, AB
Joined: 11.26.2008

Jan 7 @ 9:38 PM ET
That is correct, I think if the Leafs would like to win a cup, they’ll need to improve at the 1st line C spot.

I don’t think any team knows for certain where they’ll fill their holes. I doubt Ottawa knows where they’ll get their 1C, 1RW,1LW, 2C, 1D, etc, etc…. It would be great Nylander filled that role. He has decent potential for it. We’ll see.

- prock

I think the Leafs need defence more than anything from the games I have watched.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Jan 8 @ 7:56 AM ET
Well, if it's Nylander, they won't really have to open up cap space. If it's by trade, it would depend on who they're trading out. If it's a free agent signing, the best candidates would be Lupul, Gardiner, Franson.

Without knowing the scenario, I can't really answer that. It's no different than asking you who you think the Sens would trade to find the money to pay a 1C, 1LW, 1RW, 2C, etc, etc, etc.

- prock



The Senators would not need to trade anyone, just to make cap space they have Tonnes of cap space.

However, the leafs, who've painted themselves into a corner, by having a non Cup contending roster with a maxed out Cap, would be forced to move people out in order to bring in the remaining pieces to their puzzle.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Jan 8 @ 7:57 AM ET
I think the Leafs need defence more than anything from the games I have watched.
- Cape Breton Bruins



Dougie Hamilton would have been a great fit in toronto.
Pecafan Fan
Montreal Canadiens
Location: Pacioretty, c'est mou comme d'la marde - Gilbert Delorme
Joined: 01.20.2009

Jan 8 @ 7:58 AM ET
I think the Leafs need defence more than anything from the games I have watched.
- Cape Breton Bruins


Sure would help.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Jan 8 @ 8:00 AM ET




Just noticed, Nashville has the best record in the NHL, and the leafs have slipped out of a playoff spot.

The Panthers, who have a better record than the leafs, have four games in hand, and could also pass the leafs in the next week or two, because they have a slightly easier schedule of opponents than the leafs do.

Oh oh!
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