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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
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Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Mar 26 @ 3:24 PM ET
I assume this has changed?
- prock

Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Mar 26 @ 3:28 PM ET
I assume this has changed?
- prock


Considering this (my post on page one) was posted in November of 2008, yes, a few things have changed since then. How very astute of you number one!

Besides, this (what you quoted Today @ 1:58 PM ET) was my response to another poster, are you trying to hone in?
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Mar 26 @ 3:31 PM ET
Considering this was posted in November of 2008, yes, a few things have changed since then.

Besides, this was my response to another poster, are you trying to hone in?

- Doppleganger



And back then, you said the Sens were in better shape, as they were ahead in the standings. Now, you make the comment that they're about equal.... Yet, the Leafs are well ahead in the standings.

It's just funny going back and looking at some of the comments in this thread. Sens fans insisting their team is fine, they acquired their big goalie in Pascal Leclaire, they have great youth, and they don't need a rebuild. Three years later.....

The Habs homer going on about how great Gionta is was pretty entertaining too.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Mar 26 @ 3:41 PM ET
And back then, you said the Sens were in better shape, as they were ahead in the standings. Now, you make the comment that they're about equal.... Yet, the Leafs are well ahead in the standings.

It's just funny going back and looking at some of the comments in this thread. Sens fans insisting their team is fine, they acquired their big goalie in Pascal Leclaire, they have great youth, and they don't need a rebuild. Three years later.....

The Habs homer going on about how great Gionta is was pretty entertaining too.

- prock


Yes the leafs have a WHOPPING five more wins than the Senators, they'll undoubtedly be the Champions of Ontario. You must be so proud number one!
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Mar 26 @ 3:44 PM ET
Yes the leafs have a WHOPPING five more wins than the Senators, they'll undoubtedly be the Champions of Ontario. You must be so proud number one!
- Doppleganger


And yet, it was even closer, in the other direction, back then.... But that didn't stop you from bringing it up.

I love how you so emphatically state that no vet in the last year of a contract will get a first round draft pick in return, too.

Just about every post you (and others, for that matter) made in this thread is way off base. Time has shown that.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Mar 26 @ 3:53 PM ET
And yet, it was even closer, in the other direction, back then.... But that didn't stop you from bringing it up.

I love how you so emphatically state that no vet in the last year of a contract will get a first round draft pick in return, too.

Just about every post you (and others, for that matter) made in this thread is way off base. Time has shown that.

- prock


And you've been perfectly correct all along, right number one?
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Mar 26 @ 3:55 PM ET
And you've been perfectly correct all along, right number one?
- Doppleganger



Judging by this thread? Yep.
Leafy_84
Toronto Maple Leafs
Joined: 12.29.2008

Mar 26 @ 10:39 PM ET
I think the Leafs are in a better position immediately but if the Sens commit to a full tear down and rebuild that they would be better off than the Leafs in the long run.
sanfordnson
Edmonton Oilers
Location: BiggButtz
Joined: 03.11.2010

Mar 27 @ 11:50 AM ET
Kessel IS a key building block. No one seems to understand that.
- RogerRoeper

Because people without the goggles on see him for what he is: complimentary. good for 30 goals but not much else.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Mar 27 @ 11:54 AM ET
Because people without the goggles on see him for what he is: complimentary. good for 30 goals but not much else.
- sanfordnson



In fairness, a 30 goal scorer is something more than half the teams in the NHL don't have right now. Only 13 teams in the NHL have a guy with 30 goals this year. Maybe it gets to 15 by year end? Who knows.
sanfordnson
Edmonton Oilers
Location: BiggButtz
Joined: 03.11.2010

Mar 27 @ 11:57 AM ET
In fairness, a 30 goal scorer is something more than half the teams in the NHL don't have right now. Only 13 teams in the NHL have a guy with 30 goals this year. Maybe it gets to 15 by year end? Who knows.
- prock

not saying he's not desireable. he would be hotter without his weird mouth but I digress..

Just saying he's there to score goals, but a franchise cornerstone his is not. hes kind of a modern day Craig Simpson.
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Mar 27 @ 12:13 PM ET
Because people without the goggles on see him for what he is: complimentary. good for 30 goals but not much else.
- sanfordnson


How many players have 3 30+ goal seasons by age 23? (two of those years in only 70 games)

If you think a player that accomplishes that isn't a building block, you're nuts.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Mar 27 @ 3:28 PM ET
I think the Leafs are in a better position immediately but if the Sens commit to a full tear down and rebuild that they would be better off than the Leafs in the long run.
- Leafy_84



Have you been living under a rock for the past month?

Fisher
Campoli
Kovalev
Kelly
Elliot
Leclaire
Ruutu

four forwards, two goaltenders and one defensman.
ALL gone. If that's not a full tear down, then what is?
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Mar 27 @ 3:31 PM ET
Have you been living under a rock for the past month?

Fisher
Campoli
Kovalev
Kelly
Elliot
Leclaire
Ruutu

four forwards, two goaltenders and one defensman.
ALL gone. If that's not a full tear down, then what is?

- Doppleganger



bit players and role players are a full teardown??
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Mar 27 @ 3:43 PM ET
Have you been living under a rock for the past month?

Fisher
Campoli
Kovalev
Kelly
Elliot
Leclaire
Ruutu

four forwards, two goaltenders and one defensman.
ALL gone. If that's not a full tear down, then what is?

- Doppleganger


four forwards, two goaltenders, and TWO defensemen.

with only one defenseman, it's only classified as a partial teardown.
Leafy_84
Toronto Maple Leafs
Joined: 12.29.2008

Mar 27 @ 4:08 PM ET
Have you been living under a rock for the past month?

Fisher
Campoli
Kovalev
Kelly
Elliot
Leclaire
Ruutu

four forwards, two goaltenders and one defensman.
ALL gone. If that's not a full tear down, then what is?

- Doppleganger


Well a full tear down and rebuild would be trading your veteran players for high end prospects and top picks and committing to several years or trading vets for picks and prospects and finishing among the bottom of the league for maybe three or four or even five years, drafting high consistently and giving your young guys the bulk of the work.

You can't do a full tear down and rebuild in one year by trading a few bit players for minor returns (i.e. only Fisher brought in good value and they added a few second round picks). Hell, I wouldn't even consider the Leafs to be in "full tear down" mode and they traded John Mitchell, Beauchemin, Versteeg, Kaberle and Stefanovich. And added better pieces than the Sens as well with two first rounders and two solid prospects in Colborne and Gardiner as opposed to the first, couple of seconds and some 6th and 7th rounders.

Also if you read back you'll find I said the exact same thing when this thread was originally created: That the Sens were in a better position at that time but the Leafs would be in a better position if they comitted to a full rebuild (which they failed to do). Tables are turned a bit but the idea is the same.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Mar 27 @ 4:18 PM ET
Well a full tear down and rebuild would be trading your veteran players for high end prospects and top picks and committing to several years or trading vets for picks and prospects and finishing among the bottom of the league for maybe three or four or even five years, drafting high consistently and giving your young guys the bulk of the work.

You can't do a full tear down and rebuild in one year by trading a few bit players for minor returns (i.e. only Fisher brought in good value and they added a few second round picks). Hell, I wouldn't even consider the Leafs to be in "full tear down" mode and they traded John Mitchell, Beauchemin, Versteeg, Kaberle and Stefanovich. And added better pieces than the Sens as well with two first rounders and two solid prospects in Colborne and Gardiner as opposed to the first, couple of seconds and some 6th and 7th rounders.

Also if you read back you'll find I said the exact same thing when this thread was originally created: That the Sens were in a better position at that time but the Leafs would be in a better position if they comitted to a full rebuild (which they failed to do). Tables are turned a bit but the idea is the same.

- Leafy_84


Are you kidding? When your longest tenured player has played just over 200 games with the team, you've gone through a tear down. They aren't anymore, because the Leafs have already done it. Only six players remain from the opening roster of last season. Just six.
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Mar 27 @ 5:03 PM ET
Well a full tear down and rebuild would be trading your veteran players for high end prospects and top picks and committing to several years or trading vets for picks and prospects and finishing among the bottom of the league for maybe three or four or even five years, drafting high consistently and giving your young guys the bulk of the work.

You can't do a full tear down and rebuild in one year by trading a few bit players for minor returns (i.e. only Fisher brought in good value and they added a few second round picks). Hell, I wouldn't even consider the Leafs to be in "full tear down" mode and they traded John Mitchell, Beauchemin, Versteeg, Kaberle and Stefanovich. And added better pieces than the Sens as well with two first rounders and two solid prospects in Colborne and Gardiner as opposed to the first, couple of seconds and some 6th and 7th rounders.

Also if you read back you'll find I said the exact same thing when this thread was originally created: That the Sens were in a better position at that time but the Leafs would be in a better position if they comitted to a full rebuild (which they failed to do). Tables are turned a bit but the idea is the same.

- Leafy_84



what would you call having only 7 guys from last season opening roster left on the team. That's as full as she gets, especially since 4 of those 7 were in their first year with the Leafs last year.
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Mar 27 @ 5:04 PM ET
Are you kidding? When your longest tenured player has played just over 200 games with the team, you've gone through a tear down. They aren't anymore, because the Leafs have already done it. Only six players remain from the opening roster of last season. Just six.
- prock



I think it's 7, not that it matters. Unless you aren't counting kessel because of the injury.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Mar 27 @ 5:21 PM ET
I think it's 7, not that it matters. Unless you aren't counting kessel because of the injury.
- burn



No, I wasn't counting Gustavsson... Were you? Didn't he start the year with heart issues?
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Mar 27 @ 5:27 PM ET
No, I wasn't counting Gustavsson... Were you? Didn't he start the year with heart issues?
- prock



Still "on the roster" though, just like Kessel. So then it's either 7 or 5. Not that it matters much though.
Leafy_84
Toronto Maple Leafs
Joined: 12.29.2008

Mar 27 @ 9:51 PM ET
what would you call having only 7 guys from last season opening roster left on the team. That's as full as she gets, especially since 4 of those 7 were in their first year with the Leafs last year.
- burn


Okay, Jesus, a full tear down and rebuild through the draft. Didn't realize I had to write it every (frank)ing time without people nitpicking my sentences. We aren't doing a full tear down and rebuild through the draft over the course of multiple years, stocking piling talented players and using that as a system to build our core the way teams like Pittsburgh and Chicago have done lately. Is that thorough enough?

I'm not trying to argue the merit because I know people will idiotically trump out teams like the Thrashers who have a tenth of the budget for scouting and developmental staff as the Leafs. This isn't an argument about building through the draft vs whatever else.

All I'm saying is that:
1) Leafs are not doing a traditional full tear down and rebuild through the draft over the course of multiple years, stockpiling top talent to assemble their core although they did have the opportunity to do so
2) the Sens are not currently doing a traditional full tear down and rebuild through the draft but do have that opportunity, we have yet to see how they proceed as they may try to fast track it or may try to fully dive in and commit to a multiple year full tear down and rebuild through the draft
3) If the Sens choose to do I full tear down and rebuild through the draft over the course of multiple years allowing them to stockpile a number of top end prospects that I personally believe, in the long run, they will be better off than the Leafs with their current approach.

That being said I'm not unhappy with where the Leafs are now, I still think they squandered an opportunity to build a proper core through the draft but as it stands they are one of the youngest teams in the league, are just a few points out of the playoffs and have done so without a legit #1 centre, consistent goaltending for the entire season and also have some good prospects (i.e. Kadri, Gardiner, Colborne) that could make impacts sooner rather than later...oh and two first round picks in the upcoming draft.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Mar 28 @ 6:45 AM ET
Okay, Jesus, a full tear down and rebuild through the draft. Didn't realize I had to write it every (frank)ing time without people nitpicking my sentences. We aren't doing a full tear down and rebuild through the draft over the course of multiple years, stocking piling talented players and using that as a system to build our core the way teams like Pittsburgh and Chicago have done lately. Is that thorough enough?

I'm not trying to argue the merit because I know people will idiotically trump out teams like the Thrashers who have a tenth of the budget for scouting and developmental staff as the Leafs. This isn't an argument about building through the draft vs whatever else.

All I'm saying is that:
1) Leafs are not doing a traditional full tear down and rebuild through the draft over the course of multiple years, stockpiling top talent to assemble their core although they did have the opportunity to do so
2) the Sens are not currently doing a traditional full tear down and rebuild through the draft but do have that opportunity, we have yet to see how they proceed as they may try to fast track it or may try to fully dive in and commit to a multiple year full tear down and rebuild through the draft
3) If the Sens choose to do I full tear down and rebuild through the draft over the course of multiple years allowing them to stockpile a number of top end prospects that I personally believe, in the long run, they will be better off than the Leafs with their current approach.

That being said I'm not unhappy with where the Leafs are now, I still think they squandered an opportunity to build a proper core through the draft but as it stands they are one of the youngest teams in the league, are just a few points out of the playoffs and have done so without a legit #1 centre, consistent goaltending for the entire season and also have some good prospects (i.e. Kadri, Gardiner, Colborne) that could make impacts sooner rather than later...oh and two first round picks in the upcoming draft.

- Leafy_84


I think that is a pretty reasonable assessment of the situation in terms of both teams. It does not account for all the draft picks the Leafs have surrendered in the past. But the past is past and you can't do anything about the past other than to learn from your mistakes. I suspect that the Senators have more raw talent within their system than the Leafs but the difference is not all that great. The Senators have 6 picks in the first 65 of this draft and this is substantial when you add this to the expectation of Rundblad and Cowen joining the big team next year.

I think Ottawa remains in contention for a lottery pick next year despite the push they have made at the end of this season. I also believe that they will deal Spezza, Phillips and even Anderson as the season wears on. I think (and I am only guessing) the Leafs and their fans have a burning desire to make the playoffs. On the other hand, I think the Senators are intent on establishing themselves as an elite team with the ability to compete for a Stanley Cup. I think that is the essential difference in the two approaches.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Mar 28 @ 9:49 AM ET


I think Ottawa remains in contention for a lottery pick next year despite the push they have made at the end of this season. I also believe that they will deal Spezza, Phillips and even Anderson as the season wears on.

- spatso


If by saying "I think Ottawa remains in contention for a lottery pick next year" you mean they finish in the bottom five, then I can't agree with that assessment. BUT if you mean they'll finish out of the playoffs and thereby being a lottery team, which all Non Playoff teams are, then I can agree with that.

On the point you make concerning dealing away Spezza and Phillips, they both have NTCs and Both have stated that they intend to stay in Ottawa. Alfredsson does not have a NTC, but I cannot see him being dealt unless he himself requests it.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Jun 9 @ 9:28 AM ET


Ottawa Senators goaltending prospect Robin Lehner backstopped the Binghamton Senators to the Calder Cup championship, winning the playoff most valuable player award as well.

Lehner did not start the playoffs, and once Binghamton fell behind 3 games to 1 in the opening round of the playoffs, he started game 5 and never looked back.

They won the final three games of that series, all in overtime, and Lehner also stopped a penalty shot in overtime in one of those three wins.

The Senators plans at this time is for him to return to the AHL and play an entire season, as it will be better for him and the organization in the long run and Anderson just signed a five year contract and will most likely play around 60 games for the Senators.


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