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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
Author Message
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Sep 25 @ 1:05 PM ET
It really just depends on what you feel is more important.

Success at the pro level or success at the junior level.

Success at the pro level favours both Nylander and Leivo

Success at the junior level favours Puempel and Lazar

- Feeling Glucky?



What "success" has Nylander had in the SHL or the Allsv ?
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Sep 25 @ 1:07 PM ET
You give way, way too much importance to a preseason game.
- Pecafan Fan


Not really it is a continuation of a 4 year discussion.
daeth
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: every day, once a day, give yourself a present, ON
Joined: 09.15.2005

Sep 25 @ 1:10 PM ET
Nylander destroyed in the U18 games he played in. Best player in the tournament in fact. When he plays with people his own age he dominates.

If he continues to develop well I don't really see a scenario where Lazar ends up being better, at least offensively speaking.
senstroll
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Sep 25 @ 1:33 PM ET
You give way, way too much importance to a preseason game.
- Pecafan Fan


I listened to the sens pre-game yesterday on the way home...I think it was dean brown harping on plus minus and fat kessel .. It was painful to listen that type of analysis.. I hope this type of pre game talk is fazed out..

ZOMG ...PLUS MINUS!!! he was MINUS ..Michalek was minus 25!!!







Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Sep 25 @ 1:34 PM ET
What "success" has Nylander had in the SHL or the Allsv ?
- Doppleganger

Over point per game with one of the allsv teams he was loaned to(better pace than anyone on that team). And just making the SHL as a 17 year old is a success, especially when you consider that MODO is a playoff team, not a rebuilding franchise scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Look at what other top Swedish players currently in the NHL have done at age 17. Nicklas Backstrom and Erik Karlsson also made the SHL, but Karlsson could only stick for 7 games, and Backstrom, who stayed longer, didn't manage to register a single point. Landeskog only managed to stay up for 3 games. These guys got to see what the SHL was like, but got returned to their Junior teams. Nylander wasn't going to learn much more from the junior leagues, and wound up playing in the teir-2 men's league. Steen didn't make the SEL at age 17. Hornqvist didn't. Johanssen didn't. Zetterberg didn't, Kronwall didn't.

The Sedin's did, and produced similarly to Nylander.

I'm not saying this means Nylander is going to be better than all those guys, because it obviously doesn't... but it's rare for a young guy to make the SHL and stick for as long as he did, and even rarer to see them in the Allsv. And that's impressive. But who knows, maybe it means he's peaked earlier than other guys. He is still a prospect, of course, and there's lots of time to go.


But it's also worth noting that Lazar is doing well in a league of kids, and he seems to have developed faster physically than post prospects, while Nylander is in the opposite boat, playing in men's leagues with lots of room to grow physically.
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Sep 25 @ 1:36 PM ET
The majority of his ahl assists were primary by a wide margin. Can you say the same about puempel?
- prock


and where are you getting this information? please provide a link
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Sep 25 @ 1:40 PM ET
and where are you getting this information? please provide a link
- sensarmy_11

I don't know if such a site exists anymore, the Leafs hired the guy running a site that did advanced stats on AHL players... but I think he might just be making fun of you for saying that Leivo had a few more secondary assists than Puempel, without backing it up yourself.
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Sep 25 @ 1:43 PM ET
I don't know if such a site exists anymore, the Leafs hired the guy running a site that did advanced stats on AHL players... but I think he might just be making fun of you for saying that Leivo had a few more secondary assists than Puempel, without backing it up yourself.
- Feeling Glucky?


i never stated it as a fact, i said logic would dictate that a good number of his assists were secondary assists. i mean prock IS the leading expert in providing opinions with no facts to back them up, so one assumes when having a discussion with him, all that should be required is a general, unsubstantiated statement.
senstroll
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Sep 25 @ 1:43 PM ET
I don't know if such a site exists anymore, the Leafs hired the guy running a site that did advanced stats on AHL players... but I think he might just be making fun of you for saying that Leivo had a few more secondary assists than Puempel, without backing it up yourself.
- Feeling Glucky?



there are lots popping up I like http://war-on-ice.com/

but I hear Melnyk is trying to buy that one with all the Canadian tire money he took in at the game last night.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Sep 25 @ 1:46 PM ET
i never stated it as a fact, i said logic would dictate that a good number of his assists were secondary assists. i mean prock IS the leading expert in providing opinions with no facts to back them up, so one assumes when having a discussion with him, all that should be required is a general, unsubstantiated statement.
- sensarmy_11

but wouldn't that mean that a lot of Peumpel's assists were secondary as well?

Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Sep 25 @ 1:47 PM ET
there are lots popping up I like http://war-on-ice.com/

but I hear Melnyk is trying to buy that one with all the Canadian tire money he took in at the game last night.

- senstroll

I know, but extra skater actually had some AHL breakdowns that were interesting. I think they might have sorted between primary and secondary assists.
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Sep 25 @ 1:49 PM ET
Over point per game with one of the allsv teams he was loaned to(better pace than anyone on that team). And just making the SHL as a 17 year old is a success, especially when you consider that MODO is a playoff team, not a rebuilding franchise scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Look at what other top Swedish players currently in the NHL have done at age 17. Nicklas Backstrom and Erik Karlsson also made the SHL, but Karlsson could only stick for 7 games, and Backstrom, who stayed longer, didn't manage to register a single point. Landeskog only managed to stay up for 3 games. These guys got to see what the SHL was like, but got returned to their Junior teams. Nylander wasn't going to learn much more from the junior leagues, and wound up playing in the teir-2 men's league. Steen didn't make the SEL at age 17. Hornqvist didn't. Johanssen didn't. Zetterberg didn't, Kronwall didn't.

The Sedin's did, and produced similarly to Nylander.

I'm not saying this means Nylander is going to be better than all those guys, because it obviously doesn't... but it's rare for a young guy to make the SHL and stick for as long as he did, and even rarer to see them in the Allsv. And that's impressive. But who knows, maybe it means he's peaked earlier than other guys. He is still a prospect, of course, and there's lots of time to go.


But it's also worth noting that Lazar is doing well in a league of kids, and he seems to have developed faster physically than post prospects, while Nylander is in the opposite boat, playing in men's leagues with lots of room to grow physically.

- Feeling Glucky?


i think comparing what he did in the SHL to what others did is misleading. hell, wasn't silfverberg the MVP of the entire league, and leading scorer, as a 20 year old, and is realistically an average to above average 3rd liner in the NHL.

yes, the SHL is a "pro league", as in there are adults who play there and get paid, but other than the fact that players are older, there's nothing to indicate that playing there allows you to develop faster than playing in the CHL.

people act like because a prospect played in a pro euro league, that it means they're somehow further along in their development, but realistically more players come right out of the CHL to hte NHL, then right out of the euro leagues.

and not to nitpick, but landeskog played 3 games in the SHL as a 16 year old, then came to play in the CHL as a 17 and 18 year old, and then went right into the NHL.
senstroll
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Sep 25 @ 1:50 PM ET
I know, but extra skater actually had some AHL breakdowns that were interesting. I think they might have sorted between primary and secondary assists.
- Feeling Glucky?


i think it did also.. RIP ES

Leafs better make it worth taking away one of my fav sites.. they owe us a cup now
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Sep 25 @ 1:56 PM ET
but wouldn't that mean that a lot of Peumpel's assists were secondary as well?
- Feeling Glucky?


likely, but he didn't have nearly as many assits in general, so it wouldn't have as much of an impact on his overall points.

like i said, either way, both players are very similar in terms of ability.........too close to say one is better than the other. neither is likely to get many games in teh NHL, and likely both spend a majority of the year in the AHL. i guess we'll see at teh end of this year who's more productive.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Sep 25 @ 1:57 PM ET
i think comparing what he did in the SHL to what others did is misleading. hell, wasn't silfverberg the MVP of the entire league, and leading scorer, as a 20 year old, and is realistically an average to above average 3rd liner in the NHL.

yes, the SHL is a "pro league", as in there are adults who play there and get paid, but other than the fact that players are older, there's nothing to indicate that playing there allows you to develop faster than playing in the CHL.

people act like because a prospect played in a pro euro league, that it means they're somehow further along in their development, but realistically more players come right out of the CHL to hte NHL, then right out of the euro leagues.

and not to nitpick, but landeskog played 3 games in the SHL as a 16 year old, then came to play in the CHL as a 17 and 18 year old, and then went right into the NHL.

- sensarmy_11

It's not so much that they're further along in their development, its that playing against adults is harder than playing against kids. That's why most CHLers see their points decrease when they go up against the scrubs in the AHL. Sure, a lot of CHLers are very talented, but it only goes so far against size and experience.

As for Silfvberg- he may still be a good player. But he also wasn't in the SHL at age 17
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Sep 25 @ 1:57 PM ET
i think it did also.. RIP ES

Leafs better make it worth taking away one of my fav sites.. they owe us a cup now

- senstroll


sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Sep 25 @ 2:03 PM ET
It's not so much that they're further along in their development, its that playing against adults is harder than playing against kids. That's why most CHLers see their points decrease when they go up against the scrubs in the AHL. Sure, a lot of CHLers are very talented, but it only goes so far against size and experience.

As for Silfvberg- he may still be a good player. But he also wasn't in the SHL at age 17

- Feeling Glucky?


it's a debate that has been going on for quite some time, i doubt we'll ever have a definitive answer. more high end kids come out of the CHL, but more kids in general come out of the CHL overall too, so not sure if that's telling.

I agree that playing against men is beneficial from a physical standpoint, but a good chunk of those men aren't as skilled as the kids playign in the CHL........who can say what's better.

as for silfverberg, he did play in the SEL as a 17 year old (the SEL is the highest league correct?), but he turned 18 early in the season
senstroll
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Sep 25 @ 2:13 PM ET

- sensarmy_11




thats a close as we will get
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Sep 25 @ 2:22 PM ET
it's a debate that has been going on for quite some time, i doubt we'll ever have a definitive answer. more high end kids come out of the CHL, but more kids in general come out of the CHL overall too, so not sure if that's telling.

I agree that playing against men is beneficial from a physical standpoint, but a good chunk of those men aren't as skilled as the kids playign in the CHL........who can say what's better.

as for silfverberg, he did play in the SEL as a 17 year old (the SEL is the highest league correct?), but he turned 18 early in the season

- sensarmy_11




Jakob Silfverberg
Left Wing
Born Oct 13 1990 -- Gavle, Sweden
Height 6.01 -- Weight 200 -- Shoots R


Selected by Ottawa Senators round 2 #39 overall 2009 NHL Entry Draft

--- Regular Season --- ---- Playoffs ----
Season Team Lge GP G A Pts PIM GP G A Pts PIM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2008-09 Brynas IF Gavle SEL 16 3 1 4 2 4 0 0 0 2
2009-10 Brynas IF Gavle SEL 48 8 8 16 4 5 1 1 2 2
2010-11 Brynas IF Gavle SEL 53 18 16 34 16 5 0 4 4 2
2011-12 Brynas IF Gavle SEL 49 24 30 54 10 -- -- -- -- --
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Sep 25 @ 2:22 PM ET
It's not so much that they're further along in their development, its that playing against adults is harder than playing against kids. That's why most CHLers see their points decrease when they go up against the scrubs in the AHL. Sure, a lot of CHLers are very talented, but it only goes so far against size and experience.

As for Silfvberg- he may still be a good player. But he also wasn't in the SHL at age 17

- Feeling Glucky?


You realize when you hype the kid this way, you raise expectations and the possibility that the kid will disappoint because he is not an instant superstar.
daeth
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: every day, once a day, give yourself a present, ON
Joined: 09.15.2005

Sep 25 @ 2:30 PM ET
You realize when you hype the kid this way, you raise expectations and the possibility that the kid will disappoint because he is not an instant superstar.
- spatso

who even cares?
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Sep 25 @ 2:30 PM ET
You realize when you hype the kid this way, you raise expectations and the possibility that the kid will disappoint because he is not an instant superstar.
- spatso


not to nitpick, but you realize that you do this as much, if not more, than anyone.
senstroll
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Sep 25 @ 2:34 PM ET
not to nitpick, but you realize that you do this as much, if not more, than anyone.
- sensarmy_11




he has gone so far the other way he cant even see he does it more than anyone with the sens.

sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Sep 25 @ 2:36 PM ET


he has gone so far the other way he cant even see he does it more than anyone with the sens.

- senstroll


everyone does it, myself included, to one degree or another. if you're one of the people who does it fairly often, you shouldn't be calling other people out for it.
senstroll
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Sep 25 @ 2:45 PM ET
everyone does it, myself included, to one degree or another. if you're one of the people who does it fairly often, you shouldn't be calling other people out for it.
- sensarmy_11



but to be fair Kadri was on for ALL 3 goals
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