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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
Author Message
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Aug 28 @ 11:00 AM ET
thats not how it works on hfboards
- daeth

nothing works the way Dopps thinks it works.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Aug 28 @ 3:16 PM ET
I have the opinion that as of right now, based on past performance (only, not potential) that Ottawa's goal tending is slightly a bit better than toronto's.

Until one of the leafs goaltenders wins a playoff round, has an out standing season, wins the Vezina or whatever else there might be..........then I'll stick with my opinion.


If you're going to ask, based on projected potential, then that's another question, not the one I'm addressing.

- Doppleganger



Bernier, as a 26 year old, just played 55 games posting a .923 sv%. That's a .923 sv% playing enough games to be considered a starter for the full year.

You can project all you like, that's something Craig Anderson has never managed to do.

Project all you want, Bernier is a better goalie, and a more proven starter, at 26, than Craig Anderson is at 33.
Pecafan Fan
Montreal Canadiens
Location: Pacioretty, c'est mou comme d'la marde - Gilbert Delorme
Joined: 01.20.2009

Aug 28 @ 3:36 PM ET
Bernier, as a 26 year old, just played 55 games posting a .923 sv%. That's a .923 sv% playing enough games to be considered a starter for the full year.

You can project all you like, that's something Craig Anderson has never managed to do.

Project all you want, Bernier is a better goalie, and a more proven starter, at 26, than Craig Anderson is at 33.

- prock


AND HE WON THE STANLEY CUP!!!!!!!
daeth
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Drink full, and descend, ON
Joined: 09.15.2005

Aug 28 @ 3:38 PM ET
Neither goalie has proven that they can put up great numbers two years in a row. Bernier gets my vote simply because he was better more recently and has never had a chance to prove himself until now but honestly I have no clue how either goalie will do.

I'd be surprised if Bernier manged to maintain a SV% above .920 this year in 60+ starts since that'd put him in elite territory imo but it could happen I guess. I expect he'll drop off like Anderson did last year but probably not as dramatically.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Aug 28 @ 3:45 PM ET
Neither goalie has proven that they can put up great numbers two years in a row. Bernier gets my vote simply because he was better more recently and has never had a chance to prove himself until now but honestly I have no clue how either goalie will do.

I'd be surprised if Bernier manged to maintain a SV% above .920 this year in 60+ starts since that'd put him in elite territory imo but it could happen I guess. I expect he'll drop off like Anderson did last year but probably not as dramatically.

- daeth



Again, Anderson has never put up good numbers ONE full season as a starter. In a row. Or whatever.
daeth
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Drink full, and descend, ON
Joined: 09.15.2005

Aug 28 @ 3:48 PM ET
His 2009-2010 season was great.

He followed that up with a season so bad that he got traded for Brian (frank)ing Elliot though.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Aug 28 @ 3:51 PM ET
His 2009-2010 season was great.

He followed that up with a season so bad that he got traded for Brian (frank)ing Elliot though.

- daeth



Sure. 12th best save% in the entire league. Great!

12th among 30 starters really is pretty middle of the road.
daeth
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Drink full, and descend, ON
Joined: 09.15.2005

Aug 28 @ 4:05 PM ET
His defense was brutal that year though. He faced the most shots in the league and still managed to do well.

They weren't as bad as the Leafs last season but close enough.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Aug 28 @ 4:12 PM ET
His defense was brutal that year though. He faced the most shots in the league and still managed to do well.

They weren't as bad as the Leafs last season but close enough.

- daeth



I don’t really buy into the whole “faces lots of shots therefore that excuses his sv%”. I’m not sure if it was this thread, but there have been quite a few studies done. Some theorized that piles of shots actually has the effect of inflated sv%. Lots of theories, like when a team is far enough ahead, they take it easy and may take low % shots, not caring about scoring. Hang back and protect a lead, if you will. Most studies say there is no statistically significant correlation between sv% and number of shots faced.

In other words, a .917 sv% is no better or worse for a goalie facing 25 shots a night in comparison with a goalie facing 30.

Either way, Bernier still comes out ahead in that regard.

There really is nothing anyone can say to refute that:

a) At 33 years old, Craig Anderson has not proven he can be a starter for a whole season and be among the better goalies in the league.
b) Bernier has proven more at 26 than Anderson has at 33.

daeth
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Drink full, and descend, ON
Joined: 09.15.2005

Aug 28 @ 4:32 PM ET
But he was one of the better goalies in 09-10. 70+ games started, .917 SV%, most shots faced in the league, .926 ES SV%, etc. These are better numbers than what Cuju was putting up in Toronto when everyone was wanking off to him.

To pull a Phaneuf he was 5th in Vezina voting that year lol.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Aug 28 @ 5:03 PM ET
But he was one of the better goalies in 09-10. 70+ games started, .917 SV%, most shots faced in the league, .926 ES SV%, etc. These are better numbers than what Cuju was putting up in Toronto when everyone was wanking off to him.

To pull a Phaneuf he was 5th in Vezina voting that year lol.

- daeth



Again, still not up to par against Bernier last year.

At 26, Bernier has proven more than Anderson as a 33 year old.
daeth
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Drink full, and descend, ON
Joined: 09.15.2005

Aug 28 @ 5:23 PM ET
Anderson has at least played well over a full season once, but he's failed to do that over multiple seasons.

Bernier has never started 60+ games so he is unproven.

I'd take the young goalie who hasn't had a chance to prove himself but has looked good in 50 games over the guy who has had multiple chances but appears to be inconsistent.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Aug 28 @ 5:27 PM ET
Anderson has at least played well over a full season once, but he's failed to do that over multiple seasons.

Bernier has never started 60+ games so he is unproven.

I'd take the young goalie who hasn't had a chance to prove himself but has looked good in 50 games over the guy who has had multiple chances but appears to be inconsistent.

- daeth



So, somehow, 70 games at .917 is better than .925 over 55 games?

It's not even close.

Bernier has proven more at 26 than Anderson has at 33.
daeth
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Drink full, and descend, ON
Joined: 09.15.2005

Aug 28 @ 5:30 PM ET
Lets see how Bernier does over 70 before we can even make a direct comparison. He might not even be durable enough to hit 70 for all we know.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Aug 28 @ 5:46 PM ET
Lets see how Bernier does over 70 before we can even make a direct comparison. He might not even be durable enough to hit 70 for all we know.
- daeth


Anderson hasn't managed anything better than .917. That's a pretty strong suggestion that since he's been given PLENTY of opportunities, and when he starts to get into that many games, he can't manage anything better than .917, he can't handle 70 games, and actually play well. I'd actually go so far as to say it's pretty well proven he can't. Maybe Bernier can't. But let's get real. Do you have any idea how bad he'd have to play over those final 15 games to bring his stats down to Craig Anderson levels? Pretty bad.

I would still take the 26 year old kid who can put up .925 over 55 games than the 33 year old who can't put up anything close to that at any more than 30 games. Because, you know, the 26 year old has proven more than the 33 year old.
daeth
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Drink full, and descend, ON
Joined: 09.15.2005

Aug 28 @ 6:00 PM ET
No idea why you think .917 is bad.

Bernier will be lucky to have a SV% like that in 50 games this year with this team.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Aug 28 @ 6:07 PM ET
No idea why you think .917 is bad.

Bernier will be lucky to have a SV% like that in 50 games this year with this team.

- daeth



It's not bad. It's not overly good either. It ranks in the 20 to 25 range of starting goalies in recent years. In other words, bottom third of the NHL, but just so.

If you're saying we'll be lucky if Bernier is in the bottom third of stats for starting goalies, I'm going to have to disagree. I'd say that would be a disappointment. Lucky would be to get the same performance we got last year. Getting a goalie that is in the bottom tier of starters is not lucky by any stretch, for a goalie that was just in the top tier, for 55 games. And in fact, FOUR of the goalies ahead of him were not starters. In other words, to suggest that we'd be lucky to have a 26 year old goalie coming off a season in which he pulled off the 6th best sv% in the league among starts to follow that up with a bottom tier result would be lucky is just a silly statement.

I'd say the Sens would be lucky to get that out of Anderson though, as it would be a career high as a starter.
daeth
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Drink full, and descend, ON
Joined: 09.15.2005

Aug 28 @ 6:37 PM ET
Last season only 10 of the 19 goalies who started 50 games or more had a SV% higher than .917.

So I'm basically saying he'll be lucky to put up top 10 to 11 starter numbers next year on this team. That's not unreasonable.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Aug 28 @ 6:48 PM ET
Last season only 10 of the 19 goalies who started 50 games or more had a SV% higher than .917.

So I'm basically saying he'll be lucky to put up top 10 to 11 starter numbers next year on this team. That's not unreasonable.

- daeth


Well there were 20 I believe, by my count, including Bernier.

Jeez, if you think the Leafs would be lucky to get something around the 50th percentile, you must think Anderson, who would have to match his career high to do that, must be among the worst starters there are? Basically, they'd be lucky to get around .912 out of him, I guess, by your expectations. Assuming he plays 50+ games of course. That would be about his career sv% average in seasons where he's played more than 50 games. So, around 15th out 20. Bottom quarter.

That's pretty bad.

daeth
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Drink full, and descend, ON
Joined: 09.15.2005

Aug 28 @ 7:07 PM ET
Bernier overachieved last year I think. He also gave up an astounding number of horrific goals which concerns me. I'm not sold on him.

I'm sold on Anderson even less.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Aug 29 @ 7:33 AM ET
Neither goalie has proven that they can put up great numbers two years in a row. Bernier gets my vote simply because he was better more recently and has never had a chance to prove himself until now but honestly I have no clue how either goalie will do.

I'd be surprised if Bernier manged to maintain a SV% above .920 this year in 60+ starts since that'd put him in elite territory imo but it could happen I guess. I expect he'll drop off like Anderson did last year but probably not as dramatically.

- daeth



Bernier moved from the West tot he East, so was not well know by the shooters in the East. This also applies to a rookie goaltender in any conference.............when a relatively newbie goaltender enters a Conference it takes a season maybe two before the "Book" is written on him bu the scouts of opposing teams. Look for Bishop to has a lesser season than his initial as a starter too.

A truly good goaltender van make the adjustments to his game, once the shooter have the "Book" on him.


Example, when Reimer played his first season, his number were respectable

2.60 GAA and a .921 Sv% in 35 games

Those numbers did not hold in his season season as the "Book" was out on him.
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Aug 29 @ 8:06 AM ET
Bernier moved from the West tot he East, so was not well know by the shooters in the East. This also applies to a rookie goaltender in any conference.............when a relatively newbie goaltender enters a Conference it takes a season maybe two before the "Book" is written on him bu the scouts of opposing teams. Look for Bishop to has a lesser season than his initial as a starter too.

A truly good goaltender van make the adjustments to his game, once the shooter have the "Book" on him.


Example, when Reimer played his first season, his number were respectable

2.60 GAA and a .921 Sv% in 35 games

Those numbers did not hold in his season season as the "Book" was out on him.

- Doppleganger




Is this for real? Are you serious?

If the book is out on reimer then how'd he put up his best numbers 2yrs after the book came out on him?




Edit: I guess you're saying reimer is "a truly good goaltender" becuase he improved on his numbers after the book came out?


Edit: the conference change one is particularly hilarious as you are insinuating that scouts aren't seeing the other conference and that teams from opposite conference haw no clue who the teams from other conferences are.
A_Tree
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: I'm r00ting for you™ - KS, ON
Joined: 05.06.2011

Aug 29 @ 8:34 AM ET
Is this for real? Are you serious?

If the book is out on reimer then how'd he put up his best numbers 2yrs after the book came out on him?




Edit: I guess you're saying reimer is "a truly good goaltender" becuase he improved on his numbers after the book came out?


Edit: the conference change one is particularly hilarious as you are insinuating that scouts aren't seeing the other conference and that teams from opposite conference haw no clue who the teams from other conferences are.

- burn


Don't even bother, this is a dopps thread and nothing needs to make sense.
Pecafan Fan
Montreal Canadiens
Location: Pacioretty, c'est mou comme d'la marde - Gilbert Delorme
Joined: 01.20.2009

Aug 29 @ 8:40 AM ET
This thread is hilarious.













For all the wrong reasons.
burn
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Boyle > Marleau :dopes, ON
Joined: 08.02.2006

Aug 29 @ 8:43 AM ET
Don't even bother, this is a dopps thread and nothing needs to make sense.
- A_Tree



Oh I know dops lives in another universe, I saw him talking about someone saying something about his family when nothing of the sort happened.
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