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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
Author Message
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Apr 17 @ 10:12 AM ET
I think I can explain this in pretty simple terms. The Karpman triangle is a well known psychological model used to explain patterns in hostage taking (Stockholm syndrome) and different kinds of abusive relationships.

Essentially the abuser takes a victim causing a rescuer to arrive on the scene (think abusive husband, battered wife and police officer). So, police officer moves to subdue abusive husband, battered wife attacks cop to prevent husband from being hurt and cop gets abused by the now protective wife. In this stage 2 model, the abusive husband takes on the role of victim, the wife perceives herself as his rescuer and the cop is perceived by the wife as the abuser. Roles have been instantly reversed. This is one of many reasons why all domestic calls are always so dangerous to police officers.

You can apply the Karpman triangle to many of the blue kool aid brigade who post on this site. In their hearts they know that they have been abused by MLSE. They have been lied to, taken for granted, even exploited. In confidence they can talk about their frustration and disappointment. But when an outsider (eg Dopps) intervenes to try and explain the failings of the Leafs they become overwhelmed with anxiety and come to the defense. They perceive themselves as the protector (rescuer) against your hostile behavior (abuser) that they somehow intuitively believe will cause damage to their beloved Leafs (victim).

At a deeper level we understand the emotional phenomena of this pattern is driven by the easier pathway. Simply, it is easier to be angry at the outsider or truth teller than it is to face the truth. If I allow myself to know the truth I will need to face the pain of my disappointment. So, it is easier to find someone to be angry against than it is to accept the pain of failure. So, emotionally it is easier to protect the Leafs and despise their critics rather than weep over their failings.

- spatso

Do you not feel any sense of irony, posting this? Like... at all?
Morris
Referee
Edmonton Oilers
Location: Hall looks disengaged, NS
Joined: 07.18.2007

Apr 17 @ 11:14 AM ET
I think you're the one missing the point.

Teams with owners that are unwilling to spend don't win the cup.

It's a pretty simple point. You keep making it about the Leafs, so you don't have to look at your team's shortcomings.

- Feeling Glucky?

Precisely.

You can say

If it's been raining, the sidewalk will be wet.

But that statement doesn't imply that

if the sidewalk is wet, it's been raining.

In the same way, you can claim

the teams who have success spend close to the cap

without implying

if you spend close to the cap, you'll be a successful team

For more information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_connective
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Apr 17 @ 11:22 AM ET
I think you're the one missing the point.

Teams with owners that are unwilling to spend don't win the cup.

It's a pretty simple point. You keep making it about the Leafs, so you don't have to look at your team's shortcomings.

- Feeling Glucky?




It's pretty clear you missed the excellent point that Spatso made.

How can the leafs expect to resign any of the UFAs they may want to retain, but can't becasue they're up against the cap (see inflexibility).

Also, if they find themselves up against the cap a year from now, when they miss the playoffs, how do they expect to resign a RFA like Kadri or Bernier??

Having the Cap room, to keep key players in the fold when their entry level contracts expire is how you build a team that hopes to contend for the Cup.

Clearly the leafs have no choice but to let players go, that if they had the cap space, they would have preferred to keep.


And kool aid drinking, blinder wearing sheeple fans will just say something like "he wanted too much money" and continue to live in the fantasy world where the leafs can doing nothing, absolutely nothing, wrong.


By contrast, the Senators will have TONS of cap space again next season, and will be able to choose whether or not to keep their RFAs like Zibanejad, Pageau, Stone, Borowiecki and Claesson.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Apr 17 @ 11:34 AM ET
It's pretty clear you missed the excellent point that Spatso made.

How can the leafs expect to resign any of the UFAs they may want to retain, but can't becasue they're up against the cap (see inflexibility).

Also, if they find themselves up against the cap a year from now, when they miss the playoffs, how do they expect to resign a RFA like Kadri or Bernier??

Having the Cap room, to keep key players in the fold when their entry level contracts expire is how you build a team that hopes to contend for the Cup.

Clearly the leafs have no choice but to let players go, that if they had the cap space, they would have preferred to keep.


And kool aid drinking, blinder wearing sheeple fans will just say something like "he wanted too much money" and continue to live in the fantasy world where the leafs can doing nothing, absolutely nothing, wrong.


By contrast, the Senators will have TONS of cap space again next season, and will be able to choose whether or not to keep their RFAs like Zibanejad, Pageau, Stone, Borowiecki and Claesson.

- Doppleganger

The Leafs will likely chose not to re-sign the majority of their UFAs, as none really played a key role on the Leafs. Maybe they'll keep one or two of Kulemin, Bolland, or McClement.... probably won't be Bolland, based on the demands.

Nonis can choose whether or not to sign his UFAs, because he has the greenlight from management to spend to the cap.

Melnyk has clearly not given that same green light, which is why key players who want fair contracts leave.

And the only way you can think there are Leafs fans who think their team can do nothing wrong, is to purposefully ignore most of what you read.
Morris
Referee
Edmonton Oilers
Location: Hall looks disengaged, NS
Joined: 07.18.2007

Apr 17 @ 11:36 AM ET
The Leafs will likely chose not to re-sign the majority of their UFAs, as none really played a key role on the Leafs. Maybe they'll keep one or two of Kulemin, Bolland, or McClement.... probably won't be Bolland, based on the demands.
- Feeling Glucky?

If they can at all help it, they should keep all three. Depth was thing thing that had me excited about the leafs this year, not their high end guys.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Apr 17 @ 11:40 AM ET
If they can at all help it, they should keep all three. Depth was thing thing that had me excited about the leafs this year, not their high end guys.
- Morris

Well, Kulemin did a pretty good job at center near the end of the year, I think he takes Bolland's role, and McClemment stays where he is. We also have more center depth with Holland in the system now, something we didn't have at the beginning of the season. I think the bottom-6 will get some more youth in it for this upcoming season, and maybe see the return of Komarov.

They need to focus on the d-corps now, especially on defense-first guys. Even just one good defensive d-man can make a huge difference for the back end... allow Phaneuf more offensive freedom, rather than starting all his shifts in the defensive zone.

I'm sure they'd like to keep Bolland, but with the failure of the Clarkson signing, and the injury he just came off of, I'm not sure they want to give him 5M over 8 years or whatever insane numbers he wants.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Apr 17 @ 11:42 AM ET
The Leafs will likely chose not to re-sign the majority of their UFAs, as none really played a key role on the Leafs. Maybe they'll keep one or two of Kulemin, Bolland, or McClement.... probably won't be Bolland, based on the demands.

Nonis can choose whether or not to sign his UFAs, because he has the greenlight from management to spend to the cap.

Melnyk has clearly not given that same green light, which is why key players who want fair contracts leave.

And the only way you can think there are Leafs fans who think their team can do nothing wrong, is to purposefully ignore most of what you read.

- Feeling Glucky?




They won't be able to sign Bolland, becasue they don't have the cap space.

That exactly the point Spatso was making. All these high-cost long term contracts the leafs have the given out to date, are now handcuffing Nonis, and he wan't retain players he wants to keep.

You see it as High demands, and dismiss it as if it does not matter.

You clearly miss the point.
Morris
Referee
Edmonton Oilers
Location: Hall looks disengaged, NS
Joined: 07.18.2007

Apr 17 @ 11:43 AM ET
Well, Kulemin did a pretty good job at center near the end of the year, I think he takes Bolland's role, and McClemment stays where he is. We also have more center depth with Holland in the system now, something we didn't have at the beginning of the season. I think the bottom-6 will get some more youth in it for this upcoming season, and maybe see the return of Komarov.

They need to focus on the d-corps now, especially on defense-first guys. Even just one good defensive d-man can make a huge difference for the back end... allow Phaneuf more offensive freedom, rather than starting all his shifts in the defensive zone.

I'm sure they'd like to keep Bolland, but with the failure of the Clarkson signing, and the injury he just came off of, I'm not sure they want to give him 5M over 8 years or whatever insane numbers he wants.

- Feeling Glucky?

If they can get rid of Gleason that might open up some room for them. They should also let Raymond walk. He had a mirage year and Holland is a cheaper replacement going forward
Morris
Referee
Edmonton Oilers
Location: Hall looks disengaged, NS
Joined: 07.18.2007

Apr 17 @ 11:45 AM ET
They won't be able to sign Bolland, becasue they don't have the cap space.

That exactly the point Spatso was making. All these high-cost long term contracts the leafs have the given out to date, are now handcuffing Nonis, and he wan't retain players he wants to keep.

You see it as High demands, and dismiss it as if it does not matter.

You clearly miss the point.

- Doppleganger

They'd easily be able to re-sign him if he were asking for 4.25 over 3-4 years. A healthy pay bump but a pretty reasonable contract.

They won't be able to sign him if he's asking for 5+ over 7 years. But then again, if they did sign him at that rate we'd all be negatively comparing it to Clarkson, right?
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Apr 17 @ 11:51 AM ET
They won't be able to sign Bolland, becasue they don't have the cap space.

That exactly the point Spatso was making. All these high-cost long term contracts the leafs have the given out to date, are now handcuffing Nonis, and he wan't retain players he wants to keep.

You see it as High demands, and dismiss it as if it does not matter.

You clearly miss the point.

- Doppleganger

5+M, 8 years.

Do you think those are reasonable demands?

Just curious.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Apr 17 @ 11:53 AM ET
They'd easily be able to re-sign him if he were asking for 4.25 over 3-4 years. A healthy pay bump but a pretty reasonable contract.

They won't be able to sign him if he's asking for 5+ over 7 years. But then again, if they did sign him at that rate we'd all be negatively comparing it to Clarkson, right?

- Morris


A few of years ago, some of the leaf fans where rejoicing the fact (in their mind) that the Jason Spezza long term high cost untradeable contract was preventing the Senators from signing UFAs as his contract put the Senators up close the cap, with no space to improve the roster.

This is the same argument.

The leafs have to pass on players (UFAs) that they want, but can't fit under the cap.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Apr 17 @ 11:55 AM ET
They'd easily be able to re-sign him if he were asking for 4.25 over 3-4 years. A healthy pay bump but a pretty reasonable contract.

They won't be able to sign him if he's asking for 5+ over 7 years. But then again, if they did sign him at that rate we'd all be negatively comparing it to Clarkson, right?

- Morris

Guys like spasto and dopps aren't just fans of their team, they're haters of certain other teams, in this case, most obviously, the Leafs.

No matter what the Leafs do, they'll see it as a negative. I guess it's part of the inferiority complex they have, being the second team in Ontario. The little brother lashing out against his more popular sibling.

Spasto, for example, has it in for Kadri, no matter how well he plays, he'll spout out about how the "insiders" aren't convinced.... but if the Leafs trade him, it'll be another youngster they gave up on too early. It's ridiculous.

And lets not forget these guys citing JVR as a bad contract a few pages back
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Apr 17 @ 11:56 AM ET
A few of years ago, some of the leaf fans where rejoicing the fact (in their mind) that the Jason Spezza long term high cost untradeable contract was preventing the Senators from signing UFAs as his contract put the Senators up close the cap, with no space to improve the roster.

This is the same argument.

The leafs have to pass on players (UFAs) that they want, but can't fit under the cap.

- Doppleganger

oh look, you're avoiding the question.

Is this an unconscious decision, to protect you fragile psyche from admitting you're wrong, or is it on purpose?
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Apr 17 @ 1:09 PM ET
Guys like spasto and dopps aren't just fans of their team, they're haters of certain other teams, in this case, most obviously, the Leafs.

No matter what the Leafs do, they'll see it as a negative. I guess it's part of the inferiority complex they have, being the second team in Ontario. The little brother lashing out against his more popular sibling.

Spasto, for example, has it in for Kadri, no matter how well he plays, he'll spout out about how the "insiders" aren't convinced.... but if the Leafs trade him, it'll be another youngster they gave up on too early. It's ridiculous.

And lets not forget these guys citing JVR as a bad contract a few pages back

- Feeling Glucky?
I think if you were to combine the two teams both in players and part of each others management core.You would have a powerhouse
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Apr 17 @ 2:16 PM ET
I think if you were to combine the two teams both in players and part of each others management core.You would have a powerhouse

- top shelf 15

I think you can say the same about most teams in the league... Calgary, Buffalo, and Edmonton may need to go three ways... but they still won't have a good d-core.
Morris
Referee
Edmonton Oilers
Location: Hall looks disengaged, NS
Joined: 07.18.2007

Apr 17 @ 2:19 PM ET
I think you can say the same about most teams in the league... Calgary, Buffalo, and Edmonton may need to go three ways... but they still won't have a good d-core.
- Feeling Glucky?


Myers, Ehrhoff, Giordano, Wideman, Brodie, Petry, Schultz, Ference, and a poop ton of top prospects beg to differ.

Any two of those teams would have perfectly fine D corps.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Apr 17 @ 3:03 PM ET
Myers, Ehrhoff, Giordano, Wideman, Brodie, Petry, Schultz, Ference, and a poop ton of top prospects beg to differ.

Any two of those teams would have perfectly fine D corps.

- Morris

Well then. There we go.

Morris
Referee
Edmonton Oilers
Location: Hall looks disengaged, NS
Joined: 07.18.2007

Apr 17 @ 3:10 PM ET
Well then. There we go.
- Feeling Glucky?

yeah, it's sad that that's something I have to be proud about

I'd bet a roster of any two non-playoff teams combined would make the playoffs and any two playoff teams combined would win the cup.
top shelf 15
Ottawa Senators
Joined: 11.23.2008

Apr 18 @ 12:34 AM ET
I think you can say the same about most teams in the league... Calgary, Buffalo, and Edmonton may need to go three ways... but they still won't have a good d-core.
- Feeling Glucky?

Phaneuf and ek ,who cares about defense
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Apr 18 @ 10:40 AM ET
Guys like spasto and dopps aren't just fans of their team, they're haters of certain other teams, in this case, most obviously, the Leafs.

No matter what the Leafs do, they'll see it as a negative. I guess it's part of the inferiority complex they have, being the second team in Ontario. The little brother lashing out against his more popular sibling.

Spasto, for example, has it in for Kadri, no matter how well he plays, he'll spout out about how the "insiders" aren't convinced.... but if the Leafs trade him, it'll be another youngster they gave up on too early. It's ridiculous.

And lets not forget these guys citing JVR as a bad contract a few pages back

- Feeling Glucky?





Guys like prock and glucky aren't just fans of their team, they're haters of certain other teams, in this case, most obviously, the Senators.

No matter what the Senators do, they'll see it as a negative. I guess it's part of the inferiority complex they have, being the second team in Ontario. The weaker brother lashing out against his more successful sibling.

Prock, for example, has it in for Ryan no matter how well he plays, he'll spout out about how the "insiders" aren't convinced.... but if the Senators trade him, it'll be another youngster they gave up on too early. It's ridiculous.

And lets not forget these guys taking out of context and alleging JVR as a bad contract a few pages back, when pointing out he is a player they would not trade (because he's good) and has a long term contract.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Apr 18 @ 10:59 AM ET
Not a single thing here explains how you predict the Sens will finish higher in the standings than the Leafs next season. It actually pretty much says the complete opposite as you are saying they are committing to a full rebuild and following the roadmap that the Oilers took. Newsflash: The Oilers didn't finish in the bottom five one year and then make a run for the playoffs the following year. They finished dead last a few years in a row and arguably will be in the mix for being in the bottom 5 (or at least bottom 10) in the league again this year.

In the absolute long run could the Sens be better off than the Leafs? Absolutely. If they committ to a long term rebuild which could mean four or five years being in the bottom 5 in the league, a few years being last or second last, trade their vets for picks and prospects and draft elite talent, put an emphasis on development and make smart decisions on trades/signings for a mix of veteran and young proven NHLers.

But to expect that next season they will be better than the Leafs in the standings is absolutely 100% biased, ignorant, idiotic and about a dozen other adjectives I don't have the time to list off.

- Leafy_84




I think you owe Spatso an apology.........he was right, again!
Mr_Squeaks
Ottawa Senators
Location: Location: Location: Glitch in
Joined: 06.26.2006

Apr 18 @ 1:16 PM ET
Hopefully this isn't taking the discussion sideways, but I thought SensChirp did a pretty good job of venting his Melnyk frustration here: http://senschirp.ca/article/enough-enough/

Ok, back to our ongoing discussion of "Who is the faster quadriplegic."
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Apr 18 @ 3:24 PM ET
Guys like prock and glucky aren't just fans of their team, they're haters of certain other teams, in this case, most obviously, the Senators.

No matter what the Senators do, they'll see it as a negative. I guess it's part of the inferiority complex they have, being the second team in Ontario. The weaker brother lashing out against his more successful sibling.

Prock, for example, has it in for Ryan no matter how well he plays, he'll spout out about how the "insiders" aren't convinced.... but if the Senators trade him, it'll be another youngster they gave up on too early. It's ridiculous.

And lets not forget these guys taking out of context and alleging JVR as a bad contract a few pages back, when pointing out he is a player they would not trade (because he's good) and has a long term contract.

- Doppleganger


Imitation is the highest form of praise
The Truth
Joined: 09.15.2005

Apr 19 @ 1:35 AM ET
the leafs really poop the bed, it was a shame and somehow ottawa finished with a better record? ouch
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Apr 19 @ 7:28 AM ET
I think you owe Spatso an apology.........he was right, again!
- Doppleganger


The problem is that some of the Kool aid drinkers do not want to believe I was born a Leaf fan in Northern Ontario, well before the Senators even existed. My comments, as a frustrated Leaf fan, drives them. The believe in total loyalty, even when the King has no clothes.

I am almost always right about the Leafs because we have seen the same story played out year after year after year.
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419, 420, 421, 422, 423, 424, 425, 426, 427, 428, 429, 430, 431, 432, 433, 434, 435, 436, 437, 438, 439, 440, 441, 442, 443, 444, 445, 446, 447, 448, 449, 450, 451, 452, 453, 454, 455, 456, 457, 458, 459, 460, 461, 462, 463, 464, 465, 466, 467, 468, 469, 470, 471, 472, 473, 474, 475, 476, 477, 478, 479, 480, 481, 482, 483, 484, 485, 486, 487, 488, 489, 490, 491, 492, 493, 494, 495, 496, 497, 498, 499, 500, 501, 502, 503, 504, 505, 506, 507, 508, 509, 510, 511, 512, 513, 514, 515, 516, 517, 518, 519, 520, 521, 522, 523, 524, 525, 526, 527, 528, 529, 530, 531, 532, 533, 534, 535, 536, 537, 538, 539, 540, 541, 542, 543, 544, 545, 546, 547, 548, 549, 550, 551, 552, 553, 554, 555, 556, 557, 558, 559, 560, 561, 562, 563, 564, 565, 566, 567, 568, 569, 570, 571, 572, 573, 574, 575, 576, 577, 578, 579, 580, 581, 582, 583, 584, 585, 586, 587, 588, 589, 590, 591, 592, 593, 594, 595, 596, 597, 598, 599, 600, 601, 602, 603, 604, 605, 606, 607, 608, 609, 610, 611, 612, 613, 614, 615, 616, 617, 618, 619, 620, 621, 622, 623, 624, 625, 626, 627, 628, 629, 630, 631, 632, 633, 634, 635, 636, 637, 638, 639, 640, 641, 642, 643, 644, 645, 646, 647, 648, 649, 650, 651, 652, 653, 654, 655, 656, 657, 658, 659, 660, 661, 662, 663, 664, 665, 666, 667, 668, 669, 670, 671, 672, 673, 674, 675, 676, 677, 678, 679, 680, 681, 682, 683, 684, 685, 686, 687, 688, 689, 690, 691, 692, 693, 694, 695, 696, 697, 698, 699, 700, 701, 702, 703, 704, 705, 706, 707, 708, 709, 710, 711, 712, 713, 714, 715, 716, 717, 718, 719, 720, 721, 722, 723, 724, 725, 726, 727, 728, 729, 730, 731, 732, 733, 734, 735, 736, 737, 738, 739, 740, 741, 742, 743, 744, 745, 746, 747, 748, 749, 750, 751, 752, 753, 754, 755, 756, 757, 758, 759, 760, 761, 762, 763, 764, 765, 766, 767, 768, 769, 770, 771, 772, 773, 774, 775, 776, 777, 778, 779, 780, 781, 782, 783, 784, 785, 786, 787, 788, 789, 790, 791, 792, 793, 794, 795, 796, 797, 798, 799, 800, 801, 802, 803, 804, 805, 806, 807, 808, 809, 810, 811, 812, 813, 814, 815, 816, 817, 818, 819, 820, 821, 822, 823, 824, 825, 826, 827, 828, 829, 830, 831, 832, 833, 834, 835, 836, 837, 838, 839, 840, 841, 842, 843, 844, 845, 846, 847, 848, 849, 850, 851, 852, 853, 854, 855, 856, 857, 858, 859, 860, 861, 862, 863, 864, 865, 866, 867, 868, 869, 870, 871, 872, 873, 874, 875, 876, 877, 878, 879, 880, 881, 882, 883, 884, 885, 886, 887, 888, 889, 890, 891, 892, 893, 894, 895, 896, 897, 898, 899, 900, 901, 902, 903, 904, 905, 906, 907, 908, 909, 910, 911, 912, 913, 914, 915, 916, 917, 918, 919, 920, 921, 922, 923, 924, 925, 926, 927, 928, 929, 930, 931, 932, 933, 934, 935, 936, 937, 938, 939, 940, 941, 942, 943, 944, 945, 946, 947, 948, 949, 950, 951, 952, 953, 954, 955, 956, 957, 958, 959, 960, 961, 962, 963, 964, 965, 966, 967, 968, 969, 970, 971, 972, 973, 974, 975, 976, 977, 978, 979, 980, 981, 982, 983, 984, 985, 986, 987, 988, 989, 990, 991, 992, 993, 994, 995, 996, 997, 998, 999, 1000, 1001, 1002, 1003, 1004, 1005, 1006, 1007, 1008, 1009, 1010, 1011, 1012, 1013, 1014, 1015, 1016, 1017, 1018, 1019, 1020, 1021, 1022, 1023, 1024, 1025, 1026, 1027, 1028, 1029, 1030, 1031, 1032, 1033, 1034, 1035, 1036, 1037, 1038, 1039, 1040, 1041, 1042, 1043, 1044, 1045, 1046, 1047, 1048, 1049, 1050, 1051, 1052, 1053, 1054, 1055, 1056, 1057, 1058, 1059, 1060, 1061, 1062, 1063, 1064, 1065, 1066, 1067, 1068, 1069, 1070, 1071, 1072, 1073, 1074, 1075, 1076, 1077, 1078, 1079, 1080, 1081, 1082, 1083, 1084, 1085, 1086, 1087, 1088, 1089, 1090, 1091, 1092, 1093, 1094, 1095, 1096, 1097, 1098, 1099, 1100, 1101, 1102, 1103, 1104, 1105, 1106, 1107, 1108, 1109, 1110, 1111, 1112, 1113, 1114, 1115, 1116, 1117, 1118, 1119, 1120, 1121, 1122, 1123, 1124, 1125, 1126, 1127, 1128, 1129, 1130, 1131, 1132, 1133, 1134, 1135, 1136, 1137, 1138, 1139, 1140, 1141, 1142, 1143, 1144, 1145, 1146, 1147, 1148, 1149, 1150, 1151, 1152, 1153, 1154, 1155, 1156  Next