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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
Author Message
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Apr 14 @ 10:19 AM ET
when bernier went down, his sv% was quite a bit higher......it went down a bit after he came back for 4-5 games and poop the bed.

since the game against LA (including that game)....his save% is 0.890. before that game, he was comfortably over .930

- sensarmy_11


I'm pretty sure it was below 930, not confortably above.
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Apr 14 @ 10:20 AM ET
as I said, you'd love to ignore it. This post of yours is absolutely gold. You ignored the facts.
- prock


please point out the facts that you posted..........
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Apr 14 @ 10:21 AM ET
Kessel is exactly the type of guy you do give 8 years to. He never misses a game. And despite the knocks on him not being physical, that will easily extend his prime years. He'll still only be 34 when it expires.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Apr 14 @ 10:25 AM ET
it's funny how the leafs fans point to last years sens team, and say it was all smoke and mirrors because of how the goalies played.............and yet refuse to admit that their team this year was EXACTLY the same.

on most nights the leafs were a bad team, who were horribly outplayed, and won because, and ONLY because of their goalie.

odds are that bernier won't be as good next year......which means another long season.

and dopps seems to be having an off day (especially if he thinks JVRs contract is bad), so just because he said something, doesn't mean it's a valid point.

- sensarmy_11

Come on, this is a normal day for Dopps, and you know it , and I didn't say it's a valid point, I said if he was going to use it, the Leafs have their own list of guys who had nagging injuries, some of them all season long.


It's worth noting, to, that teams never win solely because of goalies. They need to score, and the Leafs were one of the highest scoring teams in the league. And during the Leafs winning streaks, they weren't outplayed. I know it's easy to look at Corsi, not watch the games, and come to that conclusion... but when the Leafs were doing well, it wasn't solely on the back of the goalie. Many of the shots faced were weak ones, and the Leafs were winning battles for the puck.

There were nights, obviously, where the team would lay back, and Bernier would save their ass, but it wasn't every game as many think.

One of Carlyle's big mistakes was playing Bernier as much as he did. It let Reimer get rusty, and when Bernier went down, Reimer let in a ton of weak goals right away. 6 games in a row of that and the team was demoralized, and basically stopped playing. That's a troubling sign in and of itself- but it speaks to the age of the team. They're still a very young team and prone to letting their emotions get the better of them... something that is reflected in the penalty minutes they received this season.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Apr 14 @ 10:28 AM ET
Leafs fans get burned all the time for drinking the Kool Aid, but I will never understand a sens fan who defends Eugene Melnyk. We won't think less of you as a fan if you admit that he's terrible for the team, he had a large part in this year going down the tube and unless he pulls a complete 180 he fosters a supreme amount of uncertainty about the team going forward.
- Morris


A+ answer.

Melnyk is a caprpetbagger. The NHL shows the Senators as a top half revenue team. Melnyk rushed out to claim they were counting it the wrong way. Teams have big time expenses. But Melnyk owns the building and gets the rent, he owns the parking and gets the parking fees, he owns the concessions and gets a piece of every bottle of beer sold in the building. They just signed a very substantial tv contract with TSN. Melnyk plays a financial game to try and mask the fact his other investments are precarious.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Apr 14 @ 10:31 AM ET
Come on, this is a normal day for Dopps, and you know it , and I didn't say it's a valid point, I said if he was going to use it, the Leafs have their own list of guys who had nagging injuries, some of them all season long.


It's worth noting, to, that teams never win solely because of goalies. They need to score, and the Leafs were one of the highest scoring teams in the league. And during the Leafs winning streaks, they weren't outplayed. I know it's easy to look at Corsi, not watch the games, and come to that conclusion... but when the Leafs were doing well, it wasn't solely on the back of the goalie. Many of the shots faced were weak ones, and the Leafs were winning battles for the puck.

There were nights, obviously, where the team would lay back, and Bernier would save their ass, but it wasn't every game as many think.

One of Carlyle's big mistakes was playing Bernier as much as he did. It let Reimer get rusty, and when Bernier went down, Reimer let in a ton of weak goals right away. 6 games in a row of that and the team was demoralized, and basically stopped playing. That's a troubling sign in and of itself- but it speaks to the age of the team. They're still a very young team and prone to letting their emotions get the better of them... something that is reflected in the penalty minutes they received this season.

- Feeling Glucky?


Does not matter. Hockey is about the scoreboard. Sens crashed and burned early in the season. Leafs collapsed and died during the stretch run.
hscesq Fan
Boston Bruins
Location: GET UP, NS
Joined: 05.13.2009

Apr 14 @ 10:45 AM ET
Wait there are people who would take Kessel over Bergeron when building a team?
the_cause2000
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Not quite my tempo
Joined: 02.26.2007

Apr 14 @ 10:58 AM ET
Leafs, but it's close
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Apr 14 @ 11:01 AM ET
Does not matter. Hockey is about the scoreboard. Sens crashed and burned early in the season. Leafs collapsed and died during the stretch run.
- spatso

For the purpose of this thread, the cause for the final standings is somewhat important too.

Working your way to 3rd in the conference, losing your starting goalie, and collapsing is different than sucking, continuing to suck, and sucking some more.

sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Apr 14 @ 11:10 AM ET
For the purpose of this thread, the cause for the final standings is somewhat important too.

Working your way to 3rd in the conference, losing your starting goalie, and collapsing is different than sucking, continuing to suck, and sucking some more.

- Feeling Glucky?


a good team should be able to overcome losing their starting goalie. it happens to teams all the time, and the good ones overcome it.

if you can fall from 3rd in the confernce, to picking 8th overall, in a matter of 10-12 games.......maybe losing the goalie was a part of it, but the MAIN REASON was because your team wasn't that good to begin with. this was a bad team getting bailed out by excellent goaltending....nothing more.

nobody is saying that losing bernier had NOTHING to do with the colapse, obviously the team isn't as good without him as they are with him.....but it's naive to think that this was somehow a good team with him in the lineup......their weaknesses and faults have been well documented, this colapse seemed to only really surprise leaf fans.
hscesq Fan
Boston Bruins
Location: GET UP, NS
Joined: 05.13.2009

Apr 14 @ 11:10 AM ET
For the purpose of this thread, the cause for the final standings is somewhat important too.

Working your way to 3rd in the conference, losing your starting goalie, and collapsing is different than sucking, continuing to suck, and sucking some more.

- Feeling Glucky?

Hmmmmmm

The final result is the same regardless of the path each team made to the abyss.
Morris
Referee
Edmonton Oilers
Location: Hall looks disengaged, NS
Joined: 07.18.2007

Apr 14 @ 11:16 AM ET
Wait there are people who would take Kessel over Bergeron when building a team?
- hscesq Fan

from where did you get this? The only thing I've seen is that it's laughable to say that Bergeron is 10 times the player Kessel is. Which is true.

When you're talking about a player being 10x better than another player, you're essentially talking about Crosby and John Scott.
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Apr 14 @ 11:21 AM ET
from where did you get this? The only thing I've seen is that it's laughable to say that Bergeron is 10 times the player Kessel is. Which is true.

When you're talking about a player being 10x better than another player, you're essentially talking about Crosby and John Scott.

- Morris


come on man...........obviously i was exaggerating for effect. i don't ACTUALLY think that bergeron is 10 times the player........but i do feel that he's very clearly the MUCH BETTER overall player. kessel puts up a few more points, but is VASTLY inferior in pretty much every other aspect of the game. and the goal totals aren't that different.

7 less goals............but without the luxury of not having the try and shutdown the other teams best players every night.

for the record, i do feel that kessel is the better offensive player, but if bergeron didn't have to also play a "shutdown" role, i think he'd be pretty damn close to having the same point totals.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Apr 14 @ 11:23 AM ET
For the purpose of this thread, the cause for the final standings is somewhat important too.

Working your way to 3rd in the conference, losing your starting goalie, and collapsing is different than sucking, continuing to suck, and sucking some more.

- Feeling Glucky?




I agree, the leafs lack of defensive play sucked all season long. The coach's inability to get his team to reduce the number of shots against also sucked all season long.

So yes the leafs sucked, continues to suck, and sucks some more.

WOW, I can't believe you finally saw the light. Blaming an unproven starter, who has only been a backup in the NHL, is unfair.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Apr 14 @ 11:25 AM ET
For the purpose of this thread, the cause for the final standings is somewhat important too.

Working your way to 3rd in the conference, losing your starting goalie, and collapsing is different than sucking, continuing to suck, and sucking some more.

- Feeling Glucky?


As I said it is about scoreboard. If you need to declare a inner than, obviously, it is the Senators. They finished ahead of the Leafs and only 5 points out of a playoff spot. Leafs missed by 9 points.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Apr 14 @ 11:35 AM ET
a good team should be able to overcome losing their starting goalie. it happens to teams all the time, and the good ones overcome it.

if you can fall from 3rd in the confernce, to picking 8th overall, in a matter of 10-12 games.......maybe losing the goalie was a part of it, but the MAIN REASON was because your team wasn't that good to begin with. this was a bad team getting bailed out by excellent goaltending....nothing more.

nobody is saying that losing bernier had NOTHING to do with the colapse, obviously the team isn't as good without him as they are with him.....but it's naive to think that this was somehow a good team with him in the lineup......their weaknesses and faults have been well documented, this colapse seemed to only really surprise leaf fans.

- sensarmy_11

And it only came with the injury to the goalie.

I'm not saying the Leafs are world beaters. Over the course of a 82 game season I expected them to be fighting for the playoffs... not in 3rd, and a big part of that is their age as a group, and the poor defensive group. Their age and lack of experience showed in the way they handled Bernier's injury, and the lack of a good replacement in Reimer.

The team includes the goalie. That can't be said enough. To say they're a bad team with a good goalie is flawed. They're a bubble team with strengths and weaknesses. If they were strong at all positions, they'd be cup contenders. They've got a great top-6, and great goaltending. The focus going forward is to improve the defense.

Ottawa, on the other hand, has a pretty poor group of forwards, a poor group of defenders- outside of Karlsson, and decent goaltending.

They're obviously in a worse position than the Leafs, especially when you consider the means each team has to improve itself.

Leafs have money and a 1st in this draft, the Sens have neither... only the "allure" of a city outside of the spotlight.
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Apr 14 @ 11:37 AM ET
As I said it is about scoreboard. If you need to declare a inner than, obviously, it is the Senators. They finished ahead of the Leafs and only 5 points out of a playoff spot. Leafs missed by 9 points.
- spatso


also important to note that, since blaming the collapse on bernier getting hurt is the popular thing to do...............

ottawa's starting goalie missed more games due to injury than toronto's did, and our backup goalies had virtually identical numbers.

Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Apr 14 @ 11:37 AM ET
I agree, the leafs lack of defensive play sucked all season long. The coach's inability to get his team to reduce the number of shots against also sucked all season long.

So yes the leafs sucked, continues to suck, and sucks some more.

WOW, I can't believe you finally saw the light. Blaming an unproven starter, who has only been a backup in the NHL, is unfair.

- Doppleganger


Twist all you like. Doesn't change the answer to the thread's question. Leafs are, unequivocally, in a better position.


And who's blaming Bernier? I think you misread basically everything that's been written.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Apr 14 @ 11:40 AM ET
also important to note that, since blaming the collapse on bernier getting hurt is the popular thing to do...............

ottawa's starting goalie missed more games due to injury than toronto's did, and our backup goalies had virtually identical numbers.

- sensarmy_11

Yea, but based on the numbers, less Anderson was a good thing this season.

Do you really believe Ottawa is in a better position, all things considered?
Morris
Referee
Edmonton Oilers
Location: Hall looks disengaged, NS
Joined: 07.18.2007

Apr 14 @ 11:42 AM ET
All of the Canadian teams, at this juncture, look so far from winning the cup that it wouldn't surprise me to see all of Hall, Kessel, Subban, Karlsson, etc. on new teams/retired/aging role players by the time a Canadian team wins the cup.

Looking at it today without a major trade changing the fortunes of a team the canadian teams all look at least 5 years away. Edmonton/Calgary/Winnipeg more.
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Apr 14 @ 11:46 AM ET
And it only came with the injury to the goalie.

I'm not saying the Leafs are world beaters. Over the course of a 82 game season I expected them to be fighting for the playoffs... not in 3rd, and a big part of that is their age as a group, and the poor defensive group. Their age and lack of experience showed in the way they handled Bernier's injury, and the lack of a good replacement in Reimer.

The team includes the goalie. That can't be said enough. To say they're a bad team with a good goalie is flawed. They're a bubble team with strengths and weaknesses. If they were strong at all positions, they'd be cup contenders. They've got a great top-6, and great goaltending. The focus going forward is to improve the defense.

Ottawa, on the other hand, has a pretty poor group of forwards, a poor group of defenders- outside of Karlsson, and decent goaltending.

They're obviously in a worse position than the Leafs, especially when you consider the means each team has to improve itself.

Leafs have money and a 1st in this draft, the Sens have neither... only the "allure" of a city outside of the spotlight.

- Feeling Glucky?


wow, now you sound as stupid as prock.

ottawa scored more goals then the leafs did this year.

and your "great top six" had a combined 18 points more than our "poor top six".....not to mention that we have guys like zibanejad, and stone, who i didn't even count.

but you're right, your forwards are great and ours are poor, that's why ottawa was a better offensive team.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Apr 14 @ 11:47 AM ET
As I said it is about scoreboard. If you need to declare a inner than, obviously, it is the Senators. They finished ahead of the Leafs and only 5 points out of a playoff spot. Leafs missed by 9 points.
- spatso

As a homer senators fan, I can see why you believe this.


For the majority of the season, however, the Leafs were a far superior team in the standings. A short, but admittedly fateful collapse near the end doesn't change that.

It's pretty telling that despite the massive collapse the Leafs suffered with their starting goalie injured, the Sens could only finish 4 points ahead.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Apr 14 @ 11:49 AM ET
wow, now you sound as stupid as prock.

ottawa scored more goals then the leafs did this year.

and your "great top six" had a combined 18 points more than our "poor top six".....not to mention that we have guys like zibanejad, and stone, who i didn't even count.

but you're right, your forwards are great and ours are poor, that's why ottawa was a better offensive team.

- sensarmy_11

Come on, you don't actually think Ottawa's forwards compare to Toronto's. You're smarter than Doppspasto.

And you didn't answer the question, do you honestly think that Ottawa is in a better position than the Leafs, going forward?
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Apr 14 @ 11:49 AM ET
Yea, but based on the numbers, less Anderson was a good thing this season.

Do you really believe Ottawa is in a better position, all things considered?

- Feeling Glucky?


yes i do.

what exactly do the leafs have to build on?

3 epic collapses in a row, a mountain of bad contracts, a poopty defense with little to no help in the system, incompentent coaching and management, etc, etc, etc, etc.

the leafs maybe have 5-6 players worth anything, and then a bunch of poop and filler
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Apr 14 @ 11:50 AM ET
Come on, you don't actually think Ottawa's forwards compare to Toronto's. You're smarter than Doppspasto.

And you didn't answer the question, do you honestly think that Ottawa is in a better position than the Leafs, going forward?

- Feeling Glucky?


well, they didn't score more, so how exaclty are they better?
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619, 620, 621, 622, 623, 624, 625, 626, 627, 628, 629, 630, 631, 632, 633, 634, 635, 636, 637, 638, 639, 640, 641, 642, 643, 644, 645, 646, 647, 648, 649, 650, 651, 652, 653, 654, 655, 656, 657, 658, 659, 660, 661, 662, 663, 664, 665, 666, 667, 668, 669, 670, 671, 672, 673, 674, 675, 676, 677, 678, 679, 680, 681, 682, 683, 684, 685, 686, 687, 688, 689, 690, 691, 692, 693, 694, 695, 696, 697, 698, 699, 700, 701, 702, 703, 704, 705, 706, 707, 708, 709, 710, 711, 712, 713, 714, 715, 716, 717, 718, 719, 720, 721, 722, 723, 724, 725, 726, 727, 728, 729, 730, 731, 732, 733, 734, 735, 736, 737, 738, 739, 740, 741, 742, 743, 744, 745, 746, 747, 748, 749, 750, 751, 752, 753, 754, 755, 756, 757, 758, 759, 760, 761, 762, 763, 764, 765, 766, 767, 768, 769, 770, 771, 772, 773, 774, 775, 776, 777, 778, 779, 780, 781, 782, 783, 784, 785, 786, 787, 788, 789, 790, 791, 792, 793, 794, 795, 796, 797, 798, 799, 800, 801, 802, 803, 804, 805, 806, 807, 808, 809, 810, 811, 812, 813, 814, 815, 816, 817, 818, 819, 820, 821, 822, 823, 824, 825, 826, 827, 828, 829, 830, 831, 832, 833, 834, 835, 836, 837, 838, 839, 840, 841, 842, 843, 844, 845, 846, 847, 848, 849, 850, 851, 852, 853, 854, 855, 856, 857, 858, 859, 860, 861, 862, 863, 864, 865, 866, 867, 868, 869, 870, 871, 872, 873, 874, 875, 876, 877, 878, 879, 880, 881, 882, 883, 884, 885, 886, 887, 888, 889, 890, 891, 892, 893, 894, 895, 896, 897, 898, 899, 900, 901, 902, 903, 904, 905, 906, 907, 908, 909, 910, 911, 912, 913, 914, 915, 916, 917, 918, 919, 920, 921, 922, 923, 924, 925, 926, 927, 928, 929, 930, 931, 932, 933, 934, 935, 936, 937, 938, 939, 940, 941, 942, 943, 944, 945, 946, 947, 948, 949, 950, 951, 952, 953, 954, 955, 956, 957, 958, 959, 960, 961, 962, 963, 964, 965, 966, 967, 968, 969, 970, 971, 972, 973, 974, 975, 976, 977, 978, 979, 980, 981, 982, 983, 984, 985, 986, 987, 988, 989, 990, 991, 992, 993, 994, 995, 996, 997, 998, 999, 1000, 1001, 1002, 1003, 1004, 1005, 1006, 1007, 1008, 1009, 1010, 1011, 1012, 1013, 1014, 1015, 1016, 1017, 1018, 1019, 1020, 1021, 1022, 1023, 1024, 1025, 1026, 1027, 1028, 1029, 1030, 1031, 1032, 1033, 1034, 1035, 1036, 1037, 1038, 1039, 1040, 1041, 1042, 1043, 1044, 1045, 1046, 1047, 1048, 1049, 1050, 1051, 1052, 1053, 1054, 1055, 1056, 1057, 1058, 1059, 1060, 1061, 1062, 1063, 1064, 1065, 1066, 1067, 1068, 1069, 1070, 1071, 1072, 1073, 1074, 1075, 1076, 1077, 1078, 1079, 1080, 1081, 1082, 1083, 1084, 1085, 1086, 1087, 1088, 1089, 1090, 1091, 1092, 1093, 1094, 1095, 1096, 1097, 1098, 1099, 1100, 1101, 1102, 1103, 1104, 1105, 1106, 1107, 1108, 1109, 1110, 1111, 1112, 1113, 1114, 1115, 1116, 1117, 1118, 1119, 1120, 1121, 1122, 1123, 1124, 1125, 1126, 1127, 1128, 1129, 1130, 1131, 1132, 1133, 1134, 1135, 1136, 1137, 1138, 1139, 1140, 1141, 1142, 1143, 1144, 1145, 1146, 1147, 1148, 1149, 1150, 1151, 1152, 1153, 1154, 1155, 1156, 1157, 1158, 1159, 1160  Next