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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
Author Message
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Apr 14 @ 9:51 AM ET
Most of the media are expecting significant changes to the Leaf roster and behind the bench. I do not expect a lot of change. My guess is they will try to package Phaneuf but will not find a dance paertner.
- spatso


Phaneuf is going nowhere. the Leafs will be so screwed without him. The key is to give the guy some help, and don't have him play the toughest minutes in the entire NHL every year.

Dude looks gassed at the end of every season. He was actually +19 before the collapse started. And he led the league in QOC. And he played on the Leafs.
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Apr 14 @ 9:52 AM ET
your comparison to show he isnt' overpaid is RICK NASH

remind me again how he produced in the stretch run this year..........

- sensarmy_11


So he doesn't come up in big games is what you're saying. Explain his playoff stats then?
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Apr 14 @ 9:52 AM ET
yeah, completely silly


- sensarmy_11


10 times the player Phil Kessel is!

Krecji is better than Bergeron BTW.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Apr 14 @ 9:56 AM ET
It is strong with you, the Spin.

Spezza had back surgery over the summer, and was playing at less than 100% for at least half the season, and even took time off while recovering from it. Karlsson is still recovering from his surgery and also played the entire season at less than 100%, and the same can be said for Michalek who also had off season surgery on his knee.

Oh don't forget Ryan, who suffered an injury (requiring surgery) in mid November and played with it until the latter part of the season.



You're just grasping at straws now that the leafs ended up, looking up, at the Senators in the standings.

And blaming an injured, unproven starter as the reason the leafs choked away their lofty place (third in conference) with only 24 game to go in the season, is just ridiculous, if you actually believe that.

- Doppleganger

you're right. The fact that the collapse started the game after he got injured should be dismissed.

Starting goalies have a very small part on the team's success.

And don't forget early in the season the Leafs lost 2 of their top-9 centers, and at one point, the only NHL center on the team was McClement.

And if you're going to bring up nagging injuries, it's been reported that Phaneuf, Gunnarsson, Franson, JVR, and Kessel all had nagging injuries during the collapse.

But I guess it's part of your spin to ignore all the facts, and diminish the role of a starting goaltender.
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Apr 14 @ 9:56 AM ET
So he doesn't come up in big games is what you're saying. Explain his playoff stats then?
- RogerRoeper


you mean all those playoff games he played on a loaded bruins team, when he was a kid?

sure.......he played for the bruins
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Apr 14 @ 9:57 AM ET
10 times the player Phil Kessel is!

Krecji is better than Bergeron BTW.

- RogerRoeper



prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Apr 14 @ 9:57 AM ET
LOL. 4.25 million per through his prime years is bad? How exactly? Teams will line-up to take JVR off their hands.
- RogerRoeper



Even Lupul. Sens fans would love to ignore than Lupul has nearly identical stats in terms of games played and offensive production, and is miles better defensively, as Jason Spezza, over the past few years. Yet, somehow Spezza is worth a $7M cap hit but Lupul isn’t worth $5M? Hahaha.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Apr 14 @ 9:58 AM ET
Even Lupul. Sens fans would love to ignore than Lupul has nearly identical stats in terms of games played and offensive production, and is miles better defensively, as Jason Spezza, over the past few years. Yet, somehow Spezza is worth a $7M cap hit but Lupul isn’t worth $5M? Hahaha.
- prock

durr?
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Apr 14 @ 9:58 AM ET
come on man..........you can't be that naive.

melnyk also stated that the team loses 30 million a year, while at the same time stating that they didn't need to make the playoffs to break even.

melnyk has his paws all over hockey ops

- sensarmy_11



He has stated publicly that he leaves all the "Hockey Decisions" to the GM, and I suspect he believes Murray knows more about the day to day operations of an NHL team, than he does.

I assume he's smart enough to trust people he hires, otherwise he'd be in Ottawa 100% of the time, and do more than set out budget guidelines for Murray.


Do you think he's lying when he publicly states that he is not involved in "Hockey decisions"?

Sure Murray does ask him when there is a "Hockey decision" that involves the team's budget............but Melnyk is not the one making and taking the phone calls on trade deadline day.

As far as the claims that the "Team is losing money", everyone knows that's not true.

With an average ticket price of $137.82, one only has to do the math.

Ottawa averaged 18,108 in attendance this season, if you include pre-season games, there is more than enough, in ticket revenue alone, to take care of the the Senator's payroll, and leaving almost as much leftover as the payroll, to take care of hockey operations.
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Apr 14 @ 9:58 AM ET

- sensarmy_11


Krecji turns into Crosby once the playoffs start. I'm not sure why you're laughing. He's the definition of clutch.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Apr 14 @ 9:59 AM ET
you mean all those playoff games he played on a loaded bruins team, when he was a kid?

sure.......he played for the bruins

- sensarmy_11

and had the same numbers, against the Bruins, matched up against Chara every night.
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Apr 14 @ 10:00 AM ET
you're right. The fact that the collapse started the game after he got injured should be dismissed.

Starting goalies have a very small part on the team's success.

And don't forget early in the season the Leafs lost 2 of their top-9 centers, and at one point, the only NHL center on the team was McClement.

And if you're going to bring up nagging injuries, it's been reported that Phaneuf, Gunnarsson, Franson, JVR, and Kessel all had nagging injuries during the collapse.

But I guess it's part of your spin to ignore all the facts, and diminish the role of a starting goaltender.

- Feeling Glucky?



first - every team has an abundance of players who play through nagging injuries. if you try to use that as a crutch.....well that's just sad.

second - did bernier going down hurt the team...obviously. but if the team had been playing well before the colapse, then i'd say that was a valid argument. however, the leafs sucked just as bad before bernier went down. i guess in a way you could say losing bernier led to the colapse, but that's just another way of saying that he was helping to cover up for what was otherwise a terrible hockey team.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Apr 14 @ 10:00 AM ET
He has stated publicly that he leaves all the "Hockey Decisions" to the GM, and I suspect he believes Murray knows more about the day to day operations of an NHL team, than he does.

I assume he's smart enough to trust people he hires, otherwise he'd be in Ottawa 100% of the time, and do more than set out budget guidelines for Murray.


Do you think he's lying when he publicly states that he is not involved in "Hockey decisions"?


Sure Murray does ask him when there is a "Hockey decision" that involves the team's budget............but Melnyk is not the one making and taking the phone calls on trade deadline day.

As far as the claims that the "Team is losing money", everyone knows that's not true.

With an average ticket price of $137.82, one only has to do the math.

Ottawa averaged 18,108 in attendance this season, if you include pre-season games, there is more than enough, in ticket revenue alone, to take care of the the Senator's payroll, and leaving almost as much leftover as the payroll, to take care of hockey operations.

- Doppleganger

Yes. That's exactly what he's saying, and what everybody in their right mind would believe.

Scientists PUBLICLY STATE that human actions contribute to climate change. Do you think they're lying?
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Apr 14 @ 10:00 AM ET
Lupul's put up All-Star numbers since coming to Toronto. Guy tails-off for half a season, and people act like he's garbage that can't be traded. Give me a break.
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Apr 14 @ 10:02 AM ET
Even Lupul. Sens fans would love to ignore than Lupul has nearly identical stats in terms of games played and offensive production, and is miles better defensively, as Jason Spezza, over the past few years. Yet, somehow Spezza is worth a $7M cap hit but Lupul isn’t worth $5M? Hahaha.
- prock




i bet if you printed off this post, and brought it to the DMV, they'd give you a special parking pass.....those ones that are right up near the front.
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Apr 14 @ 10:03 AM ET
Lupul's put up All-Star numbers since coming to Toronto. Guy tails-off for half a season, and people act like he's garbage that can't be traded. Give me a break.
- RogerRoeper


you mean that one good season he had, where he didn't miss 50% of the season (only about 25% of it)

that's a perennial allstar right there.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Apr 14 @ 10:05 AM ET
first - every team has an abundance of players who play through nagging injuries. if you try to use that as a crutch.....well that's just sad.

second - did bernier going down hurt the team...obviously. but if the team had been playing well before the colapse, then i'd say that was a valid argument. however, the leafs sucked just as bad before bernier went down. i guess in a way you could say losing bernier led to the colapse, but that's just another way of saying that he was helping to cover up for what was otherwise a terrible hockey team.

- sensarmy_11

Dopps used it as his crutch. I just pointed out that he's not considering all the facts(complete shocker, that).

as to your second point, last I checked, goaltenders were a part of the team. They're not randomly assigned to games like refs are. Each team has several goaltenders under contract, that they draft, sign, or trade for... just like any other player. The fact is, a goalie can be your most important player on any given night... and, truthfully, on any given night it was either Kessel, Phaneuf, or Bernier keeping the Leafs above water. So, take one away, and have the other two playing hurt, and it's a recipe for disaster.

It'd also be interesting to see how "bad" the defense is with another coach. While they don't have another top-pairing d-man to go with Phaneuf, they have a collection of 3-6 guys... problem is, as a unit, most of them looked like 6-7 guys.
Morris
Referee
Edmonton Oilers
Location: Hall looks disengaged, NS
Joined: 07.18.2007

Apr 14 @ 10:08 AM ET
Leafs fans get burned all the time for drinking the Kool Aid, but I will never understand a sens fan who defends Eugene Melnyk. We won't think less of you as a fan if you admit that he's terrible for the team, he had a large part in this year going down the tube and unless he pulls a complete 180 he fosters a supreme amount of uncertainty about the team going forward.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Apr 14 @ 10:08 AM ET
you're right. The fact that the collapse started the game after he got injured should be dismissed.

Starting goalies have a very small part on the team's success.

And don't forget early in the season the Leafs lost 2 of their top-9 centers, and at one point, the only NHL center on the team was McClement.

And if you're going to bring up nagging injuries, it's been reported that Phaneuf, Gunnarsson, Franson, JVR, and Kessel all had nagging injuries during the collapse.

But I guess it's part of your spin to ignore all the facts, and diminish the role of a starting goaltender.

- Feeling Glucky?



Un-proven starter, at the NHL level.


Remember a few years or so ago, you and other anointed Reimer as a starter, and I argued that he was un-proven as he had averages about only 35 games a season?


The most games Jonathan Bernier played in one season, prior to playing with the leafs, was 25 games in 2010-11.

So he has not shown that he can be a starter yet, in the NHL, therefore is un-proven.
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Apr 14 @ 10:09 AM ET
Dopps used it as his crutch. I just pointed out that he's not considering all the facts(complete shocker, that).

as to your second point, last I checked, goaltenders were a part of the team. They're not randomly assigned to games like refs are. Each team has several goaltenders under contract, that they draft, sign, or trade for... just like any other player. The fact is, a goalie can be your most important player on any given night... and, truthfully, on any given night it was either Kessel, Phaneuf, or Bernier keeping the Leafs above water. So, take one away, and have the other two playing hurt, and it's a recipe for disaster.

It'd also be interesting to see how "bad" the defense is with another coach. While they don't have another top-pairing d-man to go with Phaneuf, they have a collection of 3-6 guys... problem is, as a unit, most of them looked like 6-7 guys.

- Feeling Glucky?


it's funny how the leafs fans point to last years sens team, and say it was all smoke and mirrors because of how the goalies played.............and yet refuse to admit that their team this year was EXACTLY the same.

on most nights the leafs were a bad team, who were horribly outplayed, and won because, and ONLY because of their goalie.

odds are that bernier won't be as good next year......which means another long season.

and dopps seems to be having an off day (especially if he thinks JVRs contract is bad), so just because he said something, doesn't mean it's a valid point.
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Apr 14 @ 10:11 AM ET
Leafs fans get burned all the time for drinking the Kool Aid, but I will never understand a sens fan who defends Eugene Melnyk. We won't think less of you as a fan if you admit that he's terrible for the team, he had a large part in this year going down the tube and unless he pulls a complete 180 he fosters a supreme amount of uncertainty about the team going forward.
- Morris


I think you'll find that approximately 99.99% of sens fans hate melnyk, and understand that about that same percentage should apply to how much blame he gets for the current state of affairs in ottawa.
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Apr 14 @ 10:12 AM ET
it's funny how the leafs fans point to last years sens team, and say it was all smoke and mirrors because of how the goalies played.............and yet refuse to admit that their team this year was EXACTLY the same.
on most nights the leafs were a bad team, who were horribly outplayed, and won because, and ONLY because of their goalie.

odds are that bernier won't be as good next year......which means another long season.

and dopps seems to be having an off day (especially if he thinks JVRs contract is bad), so just because he said something, doesn't mean it's a valid point.

- sensarmy_11



There's quite a difference between a .923 save% and a .940 save %.

I like the chances of Bernier repeating those numbers next season better than Anderson's chances were this year.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Apr 14 @ 10:16 AM ET


i bet if you printed off this post, and brought it to the DMV, they'd give you a special parking pass.....those ones that are right up near the front.

- sensarmy_11



as I said, you'd love to ignore it. This post of yours is absolutely gold. You ignored the facts.
Doppleganger
Ottawa Senators
Location: Reality
Joined: 08.25.2006

Apr 14 @ 10:17 AM ET
it's funny how the leafs fans point to last years sens team, and say it was all smoke and mirrors because of how the goalies played.............and yet refuse to admit that their team this year was EXACTLY the same.

on most nights the leafs were a bad team, who were horribly outplayed, and won because, and ONLY because of their goalie.

odds are that bernier won't be as good next year......which means another long season.

and dopps seems to be having an off day (especially if he thinks JVRs contract is bad), so just because he said something, doesn't mean it's a valid point.

- sensarmy_11


I'm not saying JVR's contract alone, is bad. I just added it to the list of players, with long term contracts the leafs have locked up.

I also pointed out that both Kessel and JVR's contracts are the only two that are tradeable, as the others, in my opinion, are not.

This was missed, by the low information leaf fans here.


Point being, they can't trade the under achievers because of their long costly contracts, therefore they would have to trade other players, if they wanted to get out from under the cap restraints all these contracts collectively have put the team under.

But can you imagine them trading either Kessel or JVR?
I think not, therefore they become part of the problem in terms of the cap, and the lack of room to manoeuvre.
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Apr 14 @ 10:18 AM ET
There's quite a difference between a .923 save% and a .940 save %.

I like the chances of Bernier repeating those numbers next season better than Anderson's chances were this year.

- RogerRoeper


when bernier went down, his sv% was quite a bit higher......it went down a bit after he came back for 4-5 games and poop the bed.

since the game against LA (including that game)....his save% is 0.890. before that game, he was comfortably over .930
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