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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
Author Message
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Apr 8 @ 10:48 AM ET
People can talk about Macarthur and Grabovski all they want but when they were core pieces the Leafs were a lottery team. They took bottom 6 roles and the team got better. Why? Because you can't win with those guys as top players without proper support.
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Apr 8 @ 10:48 AM ET
Anyone who think he's worth 5-5.5 million at most is delusional. His stats are far too good. Letang gets over 7 million per himself.
- RogerRoeper


well then, i guess most of the people in the leafs threads must be delusional. i figure at least 80% of them think phaneuf is very overpaid, and of those 80%, at least half want him off the team.

but keep telling yourself he's worth 7 mil until 2021. that's a little less than weber and suter make, the same amount that doughty makes, and more than chara, pietrangelo, keith, mcdonough, girodano, karlsson, subban, OEL, yandle, girardi, etc.

the players who make more, or the same as phaneuf, are LIGHT YEARS better than him. and there isn't a single player on the list that he makes more than, that I, or most NHL GMs, wouldn't take ahead of phaneuf.

jesus, the guy was rated BY HIS PEERS, as the most overrated player in the league.

but, you enjoy him for the next 8 years
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Apr 8 @ 10:48 AM ET
really?

you think packaging a pick that's likely to be in the 13-14 range, in a pretty weak draft (13th pick is projected to be kasperi kapanen). not sure that pick really helps that much in solving the MASSIVE holes on your back end.

you'd have to add that pick to another attractive roster player (like gardiner or kadri) to even begin to address teh problems you have on the blueline.

- sensarmy_11

If they could sign a guy like Orpik, that'd go a long way in helping the D-corps out.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Apr 8 @ 10:50 AM ET
well then, i guess most of the people in the leafs threads must be delusional. i figure at least 80% of them think phaneuf is very overpaid, and of those 80%, at least half want him off the team.

but keep telling yourself he's worth 7 mil until 2021. that's a little less than weber and suter make, the same amount that doughty makes, and more than chara, pietrangelo, keith, mcdonough, girodano, karlsson, subban, OEL, yandle, girardi, etc.

the players who make more, or the same as phaneuf, are LIGHT YEARS better than him. and there isn't a single player on the list that he makes more than, that I, or most NHL GMs, wouldn't take ahead of phaneuf.

jesus, the guy was rated BY HIS PEERS, as the most overrated player in the league.

but, you enjoy him for the next 8 years

- sensarmy_11

Why compare a guy going to UFA to guys who signed their big deals as RFAs?

UFAs tend to get paid more.

And why compare a guy who just signed to guys who signed years ago, to contracts that are illegal now?

apples and oranges in both cases.
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Apr 8 @ 10:50 AM ET
obviously shouldn't be putting the team's struggles on him... it's just telling of the team... if he's one of the top wingers on that team... then they don't have the wingers a team needs to get to the playoffs.

I think we can all agree that Ottawa would have been much better served holding on to Alfredsson and Gonchar as well as acquiring who they did.

- Feeling Glucky?


alfredsson for sure for the leadership.......but as far as on-ice play, i see very little difference between alfredsson and macarthur (this year)

gonchar, m'eh, whatever. he wouldn't make a difference. cowen and phillips would still suck balls, and he wouldn't take ice time away from them.
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Apr 8 @ 10:53 AM ET
well then, i guess most of the people in the leafs threads must be delusional. i figure at least 80% of them think phaneuf is very overpaid, and of those 80%, at least half want him off the team.

but keep telling yourself he's worth 7 mil until 2021. that's a little less than weber and suter make, the same amount that doughty makes, and more than chara, pietrangelo, keith, mcdonough, girodano, karlsson, subban, OEL, yandle, girardi, etc.

the players who make more, or the same as phaneuf, are LIGHT YEARS better than him. and there isn't a single player on the list that he makes more than, that I, or most NHL GMs, wouldn't take ahead of phaneuf.

jesus, the guy was rated BY HIS PEERS, as the most overrated player in the league.

but, you enjoy him for the next 8 years

- sensarmy_11



You're naming guys who sined as RFAs. Not fair at all. Subban's next deal will see him get 8-9 million per. Same with many of the names you mentioned.

And a guy like Suter has a cap-circumventing 13 year contract until he's 40 years old.

And that latest poll on the "Most Overrated" saw 3 NHL players name Phaneuf most overrated. They only asked 40 NHl players.
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Apr 8 @ 10:54 AM ET
Why compare a guy going to UFA to guys who signed their big deals as RFAs?

UFAs tend to get paid more.

And why compare a guy who just signed to guys who signed years ago, to contracts that are illegal now?

apples and oranges in both cases.

- Feeling Glucky?


certainly not apples and oranges. unless you think weber would have gotten 10 million had he signed this year.

perhaps the RFAs are a little different, but not that different. the really good players are still gonna get paid.

no matter how you slice it, phaneuf is overpaid....in money, and more importantly, in term.

he's one of the 4-5 highest paid d-men in teh league, but is NOWHERE CLOSE to being one of the 4-5 best d-men in teh league. hence, overpaid.
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Apr 8 @ 10:55 AM ET
certainly not apples and oranges. unless you think weber would have gotten 10 million had he signed this year.

perhaps the RFAs are a little different, but not that different. the really good players are still gonna get paid.

no matter how you slice it, phaneuf is overpaid....in money, and more importantly, in term.

he's one of the 4-5 highest paid d-men in teh league, but is NOWHERE CLOSE to being one of the 4-5 best d-men in teh league. hence, overpaid.

- sensarmy_11


Weber got a MASSIVE signing bonus that's nearly bankrupted his franchise. It brought his cap hit way down. It would not be allowed today.

He's right; Apples and oranges. Too many RFAs and guys signed before the new CBA cited as examples.

There are tons of guys you conveniently left out who are making 5-6 million and are terrible.
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Apr 8 @ 10:56 AM ET
You're naming guys who sined as RFAs. Not fair at all. Subban's next deal will see him get 8-9 million per. Same with many of the names you mentioned.

And a guy like Suter has a cap-circumventing 13 year contract until he's 40 years old.

And that latest poll on the "Most Overrated" saw 3 NHL players name Phaneuf most overrated. They only asked 40 NHl players.

- RogerRoeper


so wait....the media who make outrageous claims about what subban will get are right, but the same media who say the leafs are looking at signing bolland for 5 mil per on a 7-8 year deal are wrong.

it's funny how they're right when it seems to prove your point, but wrong when they don't
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Apr 8 @ 10:57 AM ET
really?

you think packaging a pick that's likely to be in the 13-14 range, in a pretty weak draft (13th pick is projected to be kasperi kapanen). not sure that pick really helps that much in solving the MASSIVE holes on your back end.

you'd have to add that pick to another attractive roster player (like gardiner or kadri) to even begin to address teh problems you have on the blueline.

- sensarmy_11



The holes aren't as massive as you'd like to think. They need a top notch defensive guy. If memory serves me Phaneuf and Gunnarson and first and second in CORSI QoC or whatever. They are taking the toughest minutes in the entire league, because the Leafs are all offensive dmen. No dman in the league would be able to handle that.

But they have some great d prospects in the system on D. Top notch. A 21 year old that almost made the Leafs last year as a defensive dman. Another one out of Sweden that surprisingly made the Swedish world championship team as their go to defensive dman, but has yet to come across. Finn is primarily a defensive dman. Percy is two way. There is actually a pile of leeway on d. Gardiner or franson can be traded and the spot easily filled in with a defensive guy, and just getting another defensive guy will help, not hurt.
Morris
Referee
Edmonton Oilers
Location: Hall looks disengaged, NS
Joined: 07.18.2007

Apr 8 @ 10:57 AM ET
LOL. The Leafs are not giving Bolland 6-8 years. He won't be in Toronto next season.

I like how you hold things against the Leafs that have not happened. Bolland will get 8 years, Kadri, Gardiner are gone.

And cap room only exists if you spend it. Melnyk thus far isn't spending.

- RogerRoeper

I was sort of with you until there. What about Ryan being as good as gone in your eyes. You're definitely holding that against the Sens though it hasn't happened yet
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Apr 8 @ 10:57 AM ET
Weber got a MASSIVE signing bonus that's nearly bankrupted his franchise. It brought his cap hit way down. It would not be allowed today.
- RogerRoeper


explain how it brought his cap hit down. he's still getting the same amount of money, just up front. dion's is more spread out, which means it's gonna look even worse in 5-6 years, then it does right now
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Apr 8 @ 10:58 AM ET
I was sort of with you until there. What about Ryan being as good as gone in your eyes. You're definitely holding that against the Sens though it hasn't happened yet
- Morris


see my previous post. he also thinks the same media are right when they say subban will get 8-9 mil per year.
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Apr 8 @ 10:58 AM ET
so wait....the media who make outrageous claims about what subban will get are right, but the same media who say the leafs are looking at signing bolland for 5 mil per on a 7-8 year deal are wrong.

it's funny how they're right when it seems to prove your point, but wrong when they don't

- sensarmy_11


You're seriously claiming the reigning Norris winner and young franchise D-Man won't get a massive deal, but a broken down player who barely played this season will get 8 years?

There is no way in hell Subban won't get more than Phaneuf for his next contract. He's young, healthy and the Habs are screwed.

Bolland's injury cost him years and millions.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Apr 8 @ 10:59 AM ET
I was sort of with you until there. What about Ryan being as good as gone in your eyes. You're definitely holding that against the Sens though it hasn't happened yet
- Morris


Neither are UFA for several years.
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Apr 8 @ 11:01 AM ET
explain how it brought his cap hit down. he's still getting the same amount of money, just up front. dion's is more spread out, which means it's gonna look even worse in 5-6 years, then it does right now
- sensarmy_11


Weber got a 14 year contract. It's completely cap-circumventing. Plus, that signing bonus wouldn't be allowed.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Apr 8 @ 11:01 AM ET
certainly not apples and oranges. unless you think weber would have gotten 10 million had he signed this year.

perhaps the RFAs are a little different, but not that different. the really good players are still gonna get paid.

no matter how you slice it, phaneuf is overpaid....in money, and more importantly, in term.

he's one of the 4-5 highest paid d-men in teh league, but is NOWHERE CLOSE to being one of the 4-5 best d-men in teh league. hence, overpaid.

- sensarmy_11

Funny you mention that... because if you remove the last 4 years that he likely won't play anyways, that are only there to cut down his cap hit... his cap hit would be just over 10 million. In fact, if you take it one step further, and look at only the first 8 years, the maximum allowable under the current CBA, he'd be at 11.5M/ year.

Look at the other big name d-man that re-signed this year... Dan Girardi... 5.5M

I'd pay 1.5M to upgrade from Dan Girardi to Phaneuf, any day.
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Apr 8 @ 11:02 AM ET
I was sort of with you until there. What about Ryan being as good as gone in your eyes. You're definitely holding that against the Sens though it hasn't happened yet
- Morris


Ottawa has a cheap owner. That is why I have that opinion.

Many thought Kessel was going to Minnesota on here. I told them no. The reason? The most money was in Toronto. I was right. I do not believe at all the most money will be in Ottawa.
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Apr 8 @ 11:02 AM ET
You're seriously claiming the reigning Norris winner and young franchise D-Man won't get a massive deal, but a broken down player who barely played this season will get 8 years?

There is no way in hell Subban won't get more than Phaneuf for his next contract. He's young, healthy and the Habs are screwed.

Bolland's injury cost him years and millions.

- RogerRoeper


but you said RFAs dont' get as much....karlsson was the reigning norris, and got 6.5.

it's INCREDIBLE how much you contradict yourself.
Morris
Referee
Edmonton Oilers
Location: Hall looks disengaged, NS
Joined: 07.18.2007

Apr 8 @ 11:02 AM ET
Neither are UFA for several years.
- prock

There may be differences in the players unique contract situations and particulars. Personally I think it may be more likely Ryan is moved in the next two years than Kadri.

However in terms of faulting teams for things that haven't happened, they're qualitatively the same thing.
RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Apr 8 @ 11:03 AM ET
see my previous post. he also thinks the same media are right when they say subban will get 8-9 mil per year.
- sensarmy_11


Please tell me what YOU believe Subban will get?

Subban and Boilland are in a different universe in terms of bargaining power.
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Apr 8 @ 11:04 AM ET


Bolland's injury cost him years and millions.

- RogerRoeper


yet the same media you quote as saying subban will get a massive deal, say that bolland will get paid too.

so which is it?

RogerRoeper
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Toronto, ON
Joined: 03.27.2007

Apr 8 @ 11:04 AM ET
but you said RFAs dont' get as much....karlsson was the reigning norris, and got 6.5.

it's INCREDIBLE how much you contradict yourself.

- sensarmy_11


But Subban got a cheap deal. At the same time, if he was offered 6.5 million, he would have taken it.
sensarmy_11
Ottawa Senators
Location: If Ottawa traded ryan for clarkson sens would need to add a pick - Prock, NS
Joined: 06.01.2009

Apr 8 @ 11:05 AM ET
Please tell me what YOU believe Subban will get?

Subban and Boilland are in a different universe in terms of bargaining power.

- RogerRoeper


subban is gonna get pretty much the same deal that karlsson and pietrangelo got....especially when you consider that he hasn't been as good this year as he was last year.

he'll get 7-8 years, and between 6.5-7.

your claims of 8-9 mil are just stupid.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Apr 8 @ 11:05 AM ET
yet the same media you quote as saying subban will get a massive deal, say that bolland will get paid too.

so which is it?

- sensarmy_11

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised to see Bolland get the deal he's reported to want... but it won't be with the Leafs.
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