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Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
Author Message
BlueBallz
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: If I was GM I'd trade for the pick right behind the Canucks every year - Nucker101, ON
Joined: 07.06.2012

Nov 29 @ 7:54 AM ET
leafs
- systemtool

Hubris
systemtool
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Real men always have to poo, ON
Joined: 09.12.2007

Nov 29 @ 9:05 AM ET
Hubris
- BlueBallz

results
senstroll
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Nov 29 @ 9:06 AM ET
K. So about -5 a season should be taken into account for this.

I still think +/- is just as good a stat as the fancy stats. Give me a player whose team scores more as opposed to less when he's in the ice any day of the wee
k

- walshyleafsfan


I dont think anyone ever has said they prefer getting scored on thats not the issue

its just the stat as its currently trotted out is misleading and imo not a great judge of defensive abilities. there are way to many things to consider. Lets be honest .those who like to use +/- use it to see who is good and who is bad defensivley.. when it doesnt really tell you that.. you have to account for the noise (its a very noisy stat)

I find it odd that people will say ..Fancy stats dont tell you everything..but in the same breath will say.. plus minus tells me what I need to know i like it

it really comes down to the fact that its been around forever, people understand it, its simple, we dont have to think much at all... Plus is good, minus is bad ..the end

but it leads to a lot of bad analysts and opinions on players.


BlueBallz
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: If I was GM I'd trade for the pick right behind the Canucks every year - Nucker101, ON
Joined: 07.06.2012

Nov 29 @ 9:13 AM ET
results
- systemtool

Triumphalism
Aetherial
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Belleville Senators coach Kurt Kleinendorst labels Thomas Chabot as “a Michelangelo”
Joined: 06.30.2006

Nov 29 @ 9:14 AM ET
I dont think anyone ever has said they prefer getting scored on thats not the issue

its just the stat as its currently trotted out is misleading and imo not a great judge of defensive abilities. there are way to many things to consider. Lets be honest .those who like to use +/- use it to see who is good and who is bad defensivley.. when it doesnt really tell you that.. you have to account for the noise (its a very noisy stat)

I find it odd that people will say ..Fancy stats dont tell you everything..but in the same breath will say.. plus minus tells me what I need to know i like it

it really comes down to the fact that its been around forever, people understand it, its simple, we dont have to think much at all... Plus is good, minus is bad ..the end

but it leads to a lot of bad analysts and opinions on players.

- senstroll


judging players on shots towards the goal is equally noisy and misleading... especially when you start comparing these numbers at an individual level, when clearly there is a huge team component. and you start expressing numbers based on subjective information gathering, to 10ths of a percent accuracy.

walshyleafsfan
Vancouver Canucks
Location: Liljegren tanked to get the Leafs
Joined: 07.14.2011

Nov 29 @ 9:19 AM ET
I dont think anyone ever has said they prefer getting scored on thats not the issue

its just the stat as its currently trotted out is misleading and imo not a great judge of defensive abilities. there are way to many things to consider. Lets be honest .those who like to use +/- use it to see who is good and who is bad defensivley.. when it doesnt really tell you that.. you have to account for the noise (its a very noisy stat)

I find it odd that people will say ..Fancy stats dont tell you everything..but in the same breath will say.. plus minus tells me what I need to know i like it

it really comes down to the fact that its been around forever, people understand it, its simple, we dont have to think much at all... Plus is good, minus is bad ..the end

but it leads to a lot of bad analysts and opinions on players.

- senstroll


That was my point in kinda the opposite way.

People love fancy stats but don't like +/-
senstroll
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Nov 29 @ 9:26 AM ET
judging players on shots towards the goal is equally noisy and misleading... especially when you start comparing these numbers at an individual level, when clearly there is a huge team component. and you start expressing numbers based on subjective information gathering, to 10ths of a percent accuracy.
- Aetherial


use expected goals then
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Nov 29 @ 9:42 AM ET
Betting odds today and Start of season


- senstroll

Unless someone really (frank)ed up their formatting, those "current odds" are from september.
daeth
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: when it's a 3 taco-bell town, maybe they'll be ready, ON
Joined: 09.15.2005

Nov 29 @ 9:47 AM ET
this is the longest summer ever
senstroll
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Nov 29 @ 10:05 AM ET
Unless someone really (frank)ed up their formatting, those "current odds" are from september.
- Feeling Glucky?


hmm yeah that doesnt make sense

Leafs look better than the sens..so thats all that matters
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Nov 29 @ 10:18 AM ET
hmm yeah that doesnt make sense

Leafs are better than the sens..so thats all that matters

- senstroll

fixed that for you
bixll
Location: New Glasgow, NS
Joined: 09.04.2008

Nov 29 @ 10:24 AM ET
The 2 amigos from Ottawa have gone very silent.....

Rest in Peace long thread..
senstroll
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Nov 29 @ 10:33 AM ET
The 2 amigos from Ottawa have gone very silent.....

Rest in Peace long thread..

- bixll


credit to dopps though.. he is still showing up swinging away
Aetherial
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Belleville Senators coach Kurt Kleinendorst labels Thomas Chabot as “a Michelangelo”
Joined: 06.30.2006

Nov 29 @ 10:33 AM ET
use expected goals then
- senstroll


I assume you are baiting me

They really should have come up with a better name for that stat... it leaves it open to too much ridicule.
Aetherial
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Belleville Senators coach Kurt Kleinendorst labels Thomas Chabot as “a Michelangelo”
Joined: 06.30.2006

Nov 29 @ 10:35 AM ET
credit to dopps though.. he is still showing up swinging away
- senstroll


Well at least he has had the good sens(e) to not be swinging away when everything favours the Leafs.

I am sure they'll both be back with the derp and chirp just as soon as Ottawa wind a couple and Leafs lose a couple.
bixll
Location: New Glasgow, NS
Joined: 09.04.2008

Nov 29 @ 10:36 AM ET
credit to dopps though.. he is still showing up swinging away
- senstroll



Nobody said, he wasn't a fan.....
Tumbleweed
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: desert ridge
Joined: 03.14.2014

Nov 29 @ 10:40 AM ET
credit to dopps though.. he is still showing up swinging away
- senstroll


As a found farewell to the death of spatso. It only took +1,000 pages and 2 threads, but he finally got one right:

Would I do a Duchene for Turris deal?

Not sure what you gain. Both are very good players. But Turris is one of the best at playing Boucher's game and he has been clutch when it really matters.

Players always have an adjustment period after a trade and I am not sure you want to change up the chemistry that already exists with the team.

Turris would make a huge difference in Nashville aspirations.


Pageau has become Boucher's favourite go to guy and he gets all the top defensive roles. He has played really well in an offensive role since Turris went down.

Clearly Ottawa is not going to give Turris the long term deal (up to 8 years) that he wants. I agree with the need to exercise caution as their are some bigger deals that need to get done over the next few years.

Peak production for a forward is age 26 and younger with significant drop off after age 28. I am fine with short term deals for forwards at high dollars just do not provide excessive term. Long term deals with primary Dmen are okay as they move well into their 30's at peak performance rates. Same for goalies.

- spatso
systemtool
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Real men always have to poo, ON
Joined: 09.12.2007

Nov 29 @ 10:51 AM ET
this is the longest summer ever
- daeth



senstroll
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Nov 29 @ 10:54 AM ET
I assume you are baiting me

They really should have come up with a better name for that stat... it leaves it open to too much ridicule.

- Aetherial


meh.. dont get hung up on names of stuff
its just a name
senstroll
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Nov 29 @ 10:56 AM ET
As a found farewell to the death of spatso. It only took +1,000 pages and 2 threads, but he finally got one right:
- Tumbleweed


he has hit on a few things like that.

whats great is it sounds like he is basically talking about a 1 for 1 scenario ... and doesnt like the deal. Ottawa threw in a 1st and some other stuff
Aetherial
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Belleville Senators coach Kurt Kleinendorst labels Thomas Chabot as “a Michelangelo”
Joined: 06.30.2006

Nov 29 @ 11:19 AM ET
meh.. dont get hung up on names of stuff
its just a name

- senstroll


If only my expected salary matched when I actually got paid!
Aetherial
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Belleville Senators coach Kurt Kleinendorst labels Thomas Chabot as “a Michelangelo”
Joined: 06.30.2006

Nov 29 @ 11:20 AM ET
he has hit on a few things like that.

whats great is it sounds like he is basically talking about a 1 for 1 scenario ... and doesnt like the deal. Ottawa threw in a 1st and some other stuff

- senstroll


It doesn't look good right now, for sure.

Duchene certainly seems to have the talent, I just wonder if there are questions about everything else at this point.
Feeling Glucky?
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Tanktown, ON
Joined: 10.08.2008

Nov 29 @ 12:01 PM ET
It doesn't look good right now, for sure.

Duchene certainly seems to have the talent, I just wonder if there are questions about everything else at this point.

- Aetherial

when a guy gives up on his team... it's not a good sign.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Nov 29 @ 12:32 PM ET
Betting odds today and Start of season


- senstroll



really???? Those are some screwy odds. Unless I'm reading that wrong, the odds on the Edmonton Oilers winning the cup are lower now than they were at the beginning of the season. They may not even make the playoffs.
prock
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Bobby Ryan + 1st rounder for Clarkson, ON
Joined: 08.30.2007

Nov 29 @ 12:35 PM ET
I dont think anyone ever has said they prefer getting scored on thats not the issue

its just the stat as its currently trotted out is misleading and imo not a great judge of defensive abilities. there are way to many things to consider. Lets be honest .those who like to use +/- use it to see who is good and who is bad defensivley.. when it doesnt really tell you that.. you have to account for the noise (its a very noisy stat)

I find it odd that people will say ..Fancy stats dont tell you everything..but in the same breath will say.. plus minus tells me what I need to know i like it

it really comes down to the fact that its been around forever, people understand it, its simple, we dont have to think much at all... Plus is good, minus is bad ..the end

but it leads to a lot of bad analysts and opinions on players.

- senstroll


The correct answer is, there isn't a single stat that shows you everything you need to know. Both +/- and CORSI are a small piece of a large puzzle, and you really need to take everything into consideration.
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