Wanna blog? Start your own hockey blog with My HockeyBuzz. Register for free today!
 
Forums :: NHL Talk :: WHO is in a better situation: LEAFS or SENS?
Author Message
D0PPELGANGER
Ottawa Senators
Location: Ottawa, ON
Joined: 05.06.2015

Oct 23 @ 8:29 AM ET
I think you are correct in the specific but the principle of the general still applies. Over the next 18 months the Leafs need to lock in some big salaries up front, they may need to rejig their salary alignment to ensure they do not have a long term problem of inadequate defensive support.

Saturday night the Sens forwards shredded the Leaf defence using their speed to go around them and on several occasions to split the middle and attack the net.

- spatso







I could never afford to buy a a Ferrari, so I don't even bother to entertain the idea, or even suggest that I'd really like one of my own ............ so just like cars I can't afford, I don't even bother suggesting a trade that would never happen for obvious reasons.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Oct 23 @ 8:43 AM ET
I could never afford to buy a a Ferrari, so I don't even bother to entertain the idea, or even suggest that I'd really like one of my own ............ so just like cars I can't afford, I don't even bother suggesting a trade that would never happen for obvious reasons.
- D0PPELGANGER


A Ferrari might not be on the menu. Perhaps a Porche.

Point still remains. Pittsburgh was able to do something last year without having their #1D playing a role through the playoffs. Historically you need a strong #1D to go deep. Teams collapse. Not because they don't score enough goals. Teams collapse because they give up too many.
D0PPELGANGER
Ottawa Senators
Location: Ottawa, ON
Joined: 05.06.2015

Oct 23 @ 8:48 AM ET
A Ferrari might not be on the menu. Perhaps a Porche.

Point still remains. Pittsburgh was able to do something last year without having their #1D playing a role through the playoffs. Historically you need a strong #1D to go deep. Teams collapse. Not because they don't score enough goals. Teams collapse because they give up too many.

- spatso





BTW, you never mentioned where you're going ("Down South")
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Oct 23 @ 8:52 AM ET
Leafs are scoring 4.5 goals a game and giving up 3.5 goals per game.

The good news for the Leafs is that you can't teach goal scoring. It is a skill. Some guys can score. Most guys, including most NHL players are not particularly good at scoring.

Even better news for the Leafs is you can teach players to play better defence individually and as a team. But it always means letting up on some of the offensive attack. You see it every year in the playoffs.

I think this is what Babcock is talking about when he says the Leafs were just outworked by the Sens.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Oct 23 @ 9:05 AM ET
BTW, you never mentioned where you're going ("Down South")
- D0PPELGANGER


Just going for 4 weeks in the St. Augustine area. I don't know if you know Redfish. You can catch them in brackish water (where salt and freshwater meet). The Redfish has a legendary reputation for putting up a big fight and I want to give it a try.

http://www.floridasportsman.com/sportfish/redfish/

Will come back for December and Christmas and go back again for a few months on Hutchinson Island.
D0PPELGANGER
Ottawa Senators
Location: Ottawa, ON
Joined: 05.06.2015

Oct 23 @ 9:36 AM ET
Just going for 4 weeks in the St. Augustine area. I don't know if you know Redfish. You can catch them in brackish water (where salt and freshwater meet). The Redfish has a legendary reputation for putting up a big fight and I want to give it a try.

http://www.floridasportsman.com/sportfish/redfish/

Will come back for December and Christmas and go back again for a few months on Hutchinson Island.

- spatso


I 81,I 66, 17, I 95 ?
senstroll
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Oct 23 @ 9:41 AM ET
Leafs are scoring 4.5 goals a game and giving up 3.5 goals per game.

The good news for the Leafs is that you can't teach goal scoring. It is a skill. Some guys can score. Most guys, including most NHL players are not particularly good at scoring.

Even better news for the Leafs is you can teach players to play better defence individually and as a team. But it always means letting up on some of the offensive attack. You see it every year in the playoffs.

I think this is what Babcock is talking about when he says the Leafs were just outworked by the Sens.

- spatso


There are 7 teams worse than the leafs in GAA per game

so far the Leafs are getting .891 sv% unless we have the second coming of Toskala thats not going to continue.

I think the D problems are a bit overstated.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Oct 23 @ 10:13 AM ET
I 81,I 66, 17, I 95 ?
- D0PPELGANGER


I am going to try 476 at Clarks Summit and stay on it all the way to 78 and take 78 back over to 81. 476 is a toll road, costs $10 but you avoid the Scranton-Wilkes Barre traffic corridor and the 81 construction south of Hazleton.

It is about 10 minutes longer but you reduce the risk of delays.

I have not done this route before but several people have suggested I try it. I suggested it to someone else and he tried it and found that it was not much better than the regular route.

Normally I cut over at Harrisburg and take 15 through Gettysburg and all the way down to Opal Va where I take 17 into Fredericksburg where we pick up 95.

But there is so much new construction along 15 I am thinking about going back to the old route of staying on 81 to 66.




spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Oct 23 @ 10:20 AM ET
There are 7 teams worse than the leafs in GAA per game

so far the Leafs are getting .891 sv% unless we have the second coming of Toskala thats not going to continue.

I think the D problems are a bit overstated.

- senstroll


Classic denial.

Andersen has actually played pretty good. He made some great saves Saturday night to keep the Leafs in the game. The Leafs gave up 17 high quality scoring chances (Babcock's number). All the possession numbers GAA and other data pales in comparison to the importance of the number of high quality scoring chances the team D gives up. Babcock called a team issue. It is more than the defensive players.

The idea that there are 7 teams worse than the Leafs is not a hopeful number.
GreatGigInTheSky
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Ahead By A Century, ON
Joined: 06.12.2017

Oct 23 @ 10:31 AM ET
You never really understand the Sens game until you focus on the genius of Karlsson. He begins the counter attack from the moment he touches the puck in his own end zone.

The Sens are the team of last year's playoff run. For most of the game they were able to use their speed far more efficiently than the Leafs. Karlsson had a steady game, a playoff type game for him. He had 3 points on the night.

- spatso


Karlsson isn't what makes the team go. Yeah, he's great offensively, everyone knows that. But they play the same way with and without him. What makes the team go, more than anything, is the forwards sitting back and waiting to capitalise. Which is what they did to the Leafs.

It wasn't Ottawa's "speed" that got to the Leafs, it was the trap. The Leafs kept trying to pass through it and the passes got picked off or knocked down almost all night. And the Sens countered on those opportunities.

If the Sens scored on even half of their chances in the first 2 periods, the game would have been a blowout.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Oct 23 @ 10:34 AM ET
Karlsson isn't what makes the team go. Yeah, he's great offensively, everyone knows that. But they play the same way with and without him. What makes the team go, more than anything, is the forwards sitting back and waiting to capitalise. Which is what they did to the Leafs.

It wasn't Ottawa's "speed" that got to the Leafs, it was the trap. The Leafs kept trying to pass through it and the passes got picked off or knocked down almost all night. And the Sens countered on those opportunities.

If the Sens scored on even half of their chances in the first 2 periods, the game would have been a blowout.

- GreatGigInTheSky


Other than for a short stretch in the 3rd period Leaf team speed appeared slow. Lots of individual speed but not much high speed team play.
GreatGigInTheSky
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Ahead By A Century, ON
Joined: 06.12.2017

Oct 23 @ 10:37 AM ET
Other than for a short stretch in the 3rd period Leaf team speed appeared slow. Lots of individual speed but not much high speed team play.
- spatso


I agree. That's exactly what the trap does. The Leafs didn't have an answer for it all night. But they still somehow managed to get 3 goals in the game, despite playing so very bad.
senstroll
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Oct 23 @ 10:40 AM ET
Classic denial.

Andersen has actually played pretty good. He made some great saves Saturday night to keep the Leafs in the game. The Leafs gave up 17 high quality scoring chances (Babcock's number). All the possession numbers GAA and other data pales in comparison to the importance of the number of high quality scoring chances the team D gives up. Babcock called a team issue. It is more than the defensive players.

The idea that there are 7 teams worse than the Leafs is not a hopeful number.

- spatso


lol you clearly miss my point

denial

spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Oct 23 @ 10:41 AM ET
I agree. That's exactly what the trap does. The Leafs didn't have an answer for it all night. But they still somehow managed to get 3 goals in the game, despite playing so very bad.
- GreatGigInTheSky


Psst. by the end of the season you will understand why the 6 is a so much bigger number than the 3.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Oct 23 @ 10:42 AM ET
lol you clearly miss my point

denial

- senstroll


I am sorry Scarlett, but I think you missed your own point.
senstroll
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Oct 23 @ 10:48 AM ET
I am sorry Scarlett, but I think you missed your own point.
- spatso


you are insufferable

How does anyone have a normal conversation with you?
Tumbleweed
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: they are going to add the two best players outside the nhl (chabot and white) -spatso
Joined: 03.14.2014

Oct 23 @ 10:59 AM ET
Psst. by the end of the season you will understand why the 6 is a so much bigger number than the 3.
- spatso


was a good win for the sens.

the bigger win may actually have come through injuries.

the ryan injury actually makes you guys a better team.
D0PPELGANGER
Ottawa Senators
Location: Ottawa, ON
Joined: 05.06.2015

Oct 23 @ 11:20 AM ET
I am going to try 476 at Clarks Summit and stay on it all the way to 78 and take 78 back over to 81. 476 is a toll road, costs $10 but you avoid the Scranton-Wilkes Barre traffic corridor and the 81 construction south of Hazleton.

It is about 10 minutes longer but you reduce the risk of delays.

I have not done this route before but several people have suggested I try it. I suggested it to someone else and he tried it and found that it was not much better than the regular route.

Normally I cut over at Harrisburg and take 15 through Gettysburg and all the way down to Opal Va where I take 17 into Fredericksburg where we pick up 95.

But there is so much new construction along 15 I am thinking about going back to the old route of staying on 81 to 66.

- spatso



How recent is the 81 construction south of Hazleton?

This alternate route looks about 20 minutes longer, in addition to the $10.

https://www.google.ca/maps/dir/41.4836477,-75.6795356/40.4246478,-76.5264979/@40.8257595,-76.2316654,9.21z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0?hl=en
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Oct 23 @ 12:13 PM ET
you are insufferable

How does anyone have a normal conversation with you?

- senstroll



Sorry, you are right I was being far too cryptic.

Some people think that analytics is changing the way Hockey is played and coached.

It is actually changing the way commentators are talking about hockey. But it has not changed the way Babcock or Boucher coach.

Several times Babcock has said after a game that he was not happy with the defensive play and you can't count on winning without having a solid defensive team game based on work.

So, after Saturday's game Babcock said it was about the 17 scoring chances given up by the Leafs. This happened, he said, because they were out worked.

Ottawa lost 3-0 against Vancouver earlier in the week because they were out worked.

Someone this morning pointed out that many of the leading possession teams (including Edmonton and Montreal) are not getting strong game results.

So, when can we start laughing.
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Oct 23 @ 12:16 PM ET
How recent is the 81 construction south of Hazleton?

This alternate route looks about 20 minutes longer, in addition to the $10.

https://www.google.ca/maps/dir/41.4836477,-75.6795356/40.4246478,-76.5264979/@40.8257595,-76.2316654,9.21z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0?hl=en

- D0PPELGANGER


When I came back last March hey we're just putting out the signs for this summer. I don't know the extent of the project but just a few weeks ago a friend told me it was a mess.
senstroll
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Oct 23 @ 12:31 PM ET
Sorry, you are right I was being far too cryptic.

Some people think that analytics is changing the way Hockey is played and coached.

It is actually changing the way commentators are talking about hockey. But it has not changed the way Babcock or Boucher coach.

Several times Babcock has said after a game that he was not happy with the defensive play and you can't count on winning without having a solid defensive team game based on work.

So, after Saturday's game Babcock said it was about the 17 scoring chances given up by the Leafs. This happened, he said, because they were out worked.

Ottawa lost 3-0 against Vancouver earlier in the week because they were out worked.

Someone this morning pointed out that many of the leading possession teams (including Arizona and Montreal) are not getting strong game results.

So, when can we start laughing.

- spatso


all I posted was simple numbers.. Goals against and save percentage
These are not "analytics" or anything fancy.

Arizona and Montreal are leading what?
Tumbleweed
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: they are going to add the two best players outside the nhl (chabot and white) -spatso
Joined: 03.14.2014

Oct 23 @ 12:33 PM ET
all I posted was simple numbers.. Goals against and save percentage
These are not "analytics" or anything fancy.

Arizona and Montreal are leading what?

- senstroll


lol. not only does he not understanding corsi, he can he even read a ranking
senstroll
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Oct 23 @ 12:41 PM ET
lol. not only does he not understanding corsi, he can he even read a ranking
- Tumbleweed


A lot of fans with an anti stats angle will hear something said on a broadcast (usually by people also have little or no understanding) and take it as gospel because it proves something they want to believe.

why bother to double check something

oh and spatso can start laughing now I guess?
spatso
Ottawa Senators
Location: jensen beach, FL
Joined: 02.19.2007

Oct 23 @ 12:45 PM ET
all I posted was simple numbers.. Goals against and save percentage
These are not "analytics" or anything fancy.

Arizona and Montreal are leading what?

- senstroll


Sorry should have been Edmonton and Montreal. Arizona was included in the conversation because they were explicitly built around projections based on analytics.

The conversation was on Sirius late this morning. Last year LA lead the league in possession but missed the playoffs. Both Pens and Sens were not good possession teams and they went to the ECF.

My primary point was there are no numbers that have more meaning then Babcock's discussion on getting out worked.
senstroll
Vegas Golden Knights
Location: Sens Suck, ON
Joined: 02.22.2008

Oct 23 @ 1:03 PM ET
Sorry should have been Edmonton and Montreal. Arizona was included in the conversation because they were explicitly built around projections based on analytics.

The conversation was on Sirius late this morning. Last year LA lead the league in possession but missed the playoffs. Both Pens and Sens were not good possession teams and they went to the ECF.

My primary point was there are no numbers that have more meaning then Babcock's discussion on getting out worked.

- spatso


both Montreal and Edmonton have a sh% less than 5% and sv% less than .890
and have decent possession results. So I would say yes they are getting some bad results so far

nobody has ever said corsi or possession is 100% accurate.
Decent possession teams can miss the playoffs yes. the NHL point system is messy and there is a lot of luck involved in hockey

Newer models are using expected goals which uses shot locations along with other stats.

I wont touch the Arizona thing you said..it doesnt make sense


Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, 200, 201, 202, 203, 204, 205, 206, 207, 208, 209, 210, 211, 212, 213, 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220, 221, 222, 223, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 229, 230, 231, 232, 233, 234, 235, 236, 237, 238, 239, 240, 241, 242, 243, 244, 245, 246, 247, 248, 249, 250, 251, 252, 253, 254, 255, 256, 257, 258, 259, 260, 261, 262, 263, 264, 265, 266, 267, 268, 269, 270, 271, 272, 273, 274, 275, 276, 277, 278, 279, 280, 281, 282, 283, 284, 285, 286, 287, 288, 289, 290, 291, 292, 293, 294, 295, 296, 297, 298, 299, 300, 301, 302, 303, 304, 305, 306, 307, 308, 309, 310, 311, 312, 313, 314, 315, 316, 317, 318, 319, 320, 321, 322, 323, 324, 325, 326, 327, 328, 329, 330, 331, 332, 333, 334, 335, 336, 337, 338, 339, 340, 341, 342, 343, 344, 345, 346, 347, 348, 349, 350, 351, 352, 353, 354, 355, 356, 357, 358, 359, 360, 361, 362, 363, 364, 365, 366, 367, 368, 369, 370, 371, 372, 373, 374, 375, 376, 377, 378, 379, 380, 381, 382, 383, 384, 385, 386, 387, 388, 389, 390, 391, 392, 393, 394, 395, 396, 397, 398, 399, 400, 401, 402, 403, 404, 405, 406, 407, 408, 409, 410, 411, 412, 413, 414, 415, 416, 417, 418, 419, 420, 421, 422, 423, 424, 425, 426, 427, 428, 429, 430, 431, 432, 433, 434, 435, 436, 437, 438, 439, 440, 441, 442, 443, 444, 445, 446, 447, 448, 449, 450, 451, 452, 453, 454, 455, 456, 457, 458, 459, 460, 461, 462, 463, 464, 465, 466, 467, 468, 469, 470, 471, 472, 473, 474, 475, 476, 477, 478, 479, 480, 481, 482, 483, 484, 485, 486, 487, 488, 489, 490, 491, 492, 493, 494, 495, 496, 497, 498, 499, 500, 501, 502, 503, 504, 505, 506, 507, 508, 509, 510, 511, 512, 513, 514, 515, 516, 517, 518, 519, 520, 521, 522, 523, 524, 525, 526, 527, 528, 529, 530, 531, 532, 533, 534, 535, 536, 537, 538, 539, 540, 541, 542, 543, 544, 545, 546, 547, 548, 549, 550, 551, 552, 553, 554, 555, 556, 557, 558, 559, 560, 561, 562, 563, 564, 565, 566, 567, 568, 569, 570, 571, 572, 573, 574, 575, 576, 577, 578, 579, 580, 581, 582, 583, 584, 585, 586, 587, 588, 589, 590, 591, 592, 593, 594, 595, 596, 597, 598, 599, 600, 601, 602, 603, 604, 605, 606, 607, 608, 609, 610, 611, 612, 613, 614, 615, 616, 617, 618, 619, 620, 621, 622, 623, 624, 625, 626, 627, 628, 629, 630, 631, 632, 633, 634, 635, 636, 637, 638, 639, 640, 641, 642, 643, 644, 645, 646, 647, 648, 649, 650, 651, 652, 653, 654, 655, 656, 657, 658, 659, 660, 661, 662, 663, 664, 665, 666, 667, 668, 669, 670, 671, 672, 673, 674, 675, 676, 677, 678, 679, 680, 681, 682, 683, 684, 685, 686, 687, 688, 689, 690, 691, 692, 693, 694, 695, 696, 697, 698, 699, 700, 701, 702, 703, 704, 705, 706, 707, 708, 709, 710, 711, 712, 713, 714, 715, 716, 717, 718, 719, 720, 721, 722, 723, 724, 725, 726, 727, 728, 729, 730, 731, 732, 733, 734, 735, 736, 737, 738, 739, 740, 741, 742, 743, 744, 745, 746, 747, 748, 749, 750, 751, 752, 753, 754, 755, 756, 757, 758, 759, 760, 761, 762, 763, 764, 765, 766, 767, 768, 769, 770, 771, 772, 773, 774, 775, 776, 777, 778, 779, 780, 781, 782, 783, 784, 785, 786, 787, 788, 789, 790, 791, 792, 793, 794, 795, 796, 797, 798, 799, 800, 801, 802, 803, 804, 805, 806, 807, 808, 809, 810, 811, 812, 813, 814, 815, 816, 817, 818, 819, 820, 821, 822, 823, 824, 825, 826, 827, 828, 829, 830, 831, 832, 833, 834, 835, 836, 837, 838, 839, 840, 841, 842, 843, 844, 845, 846, 847, 848, 849, 850, 851, 852, 853, 854, 855, 856, 857, 858, 859, 860, 861, 862, 863, 864, 865, 866, 867, 868, 869, 870, 871, 872, 873, 874, 875, 876, 877, 878, 879, 880, 881, 882, 883, 884, 885, 886, 887, 888, 889, 890, 891, 892, 893, 894, 895, 896, 897, 898, 899, 900, 901, 902, 903, 904, 905, 906, 907, 908, 909, 910, 911, 912, 913, 914, 915, 916, 917, 918, 919, 920, 921, 922, 923, 924, 925, 926, 927, 928, 929, 930, 931, 932, 933, 934, 935, 936, 937, 938, 939, 940, 941, 942, 943, 944, 945, 946, 947, 948, 949, 950, 951, 952, 953, 954, 955, 956, 957, 958, 959, 960, 961, 962, 963, 964, 965, 966, 967, 968, 969, 970, 971, 972, 973, 974, 975, 976, 977, 978, 979, 980, 981, 982, 983, 984, 985, 986, 987, 988, 989, 990, 991, 992, 993, 994, 995, 996, 997, 998, 999, 1000, 1001, 1002, 1003, 1004, 1005, 1006, 1007, 1008, 1009, 1010, 1011, 1012, 1013, 1014, 1015, 1016, 1017, 1018, 1019, 1020, 1021, 1022, 1023, 1024, 1025, 1026, 1027, 1028, 1029, 1030, 1031, 1032, 1033, 1034, 1035, 1036, 1037, 1038, 1039, 1040, 1041, 1042, 1043, 1044, 1045, 1046, 1047, 1048, 1049, 1050, 1051, 1052, 1053, 1054, 1055, 1056, 1057, 1058, 1059, 1060, 1061, 1062, 1063, 1064, 1065, 1066, 1067, 1068, 1069, 1070, 1071, 1072, 1073, 1074, 1075, 1076, 1077, 1078, 1079, 1080, 1081, 1082, 1083, 1084, 1085, 1086, 1087, 1088, 1089, 1090, 1091, 1092, 1093, 1094, 1095, 1096, 1097, 1098, 1099, 1100, 1101, 1102, 1103, 1104, 1105, 1106, 1107, 1108, 1109, 1110, 1111, 1112, 1113, 1114, 1115, 1116, 1117, 1118, 1119, 1120, 1121, 1122, 1123, 1124, 1125, 1126, 1127, 1128, 1129, 1130, 1131, 1132, 1133, 1134, 1135, 1136, 1137, 1138, 1139, 1140, 1141, 1142, 1143, 1144, 1145, 1146, 1147, 1148, 1149, 1150, 1151, 1152, 1153, 1154, 1155, 1156, 1157, 1158, 1159, 1160  Next