Ryan Wilson: The fourth line is overrated The fourth line is overrated

I would just drop zAR because out of the 3 he is the passenger on that line. Besides that there is more value in guys that can play against a 1st line and get Sid away from the other teams best players. Those mix matched 4th lines of guys who used to score are always poop it seems. I saw Matt a Martin chipping in on the goal scoring this weekend.

Well a quick look shows Brand Tanev provides more tangible offense than Conor sheary and plays in tougher situations. So basically it’s just biased because he hits people.

No question they’re over-rated. Tanev should have had an increased role. At the very least take a look at different combinations. Anyway, Dks site quoted Rutherford that he’s been given permission to spend to the cap if needed. He’d like to be 2 or 3 mil under.

Teddy Blueger has one less point than Sheary in 7 more games. Never sniffing too six let alone Sidney Crosby.

ZAR with shoulder surgery. Out 6 months.

No question they’re over-rated. Tanev should have had an increased role. At the very least take a look at different combinations. Anyway, Dks site quoted Rutherford that he’s been given permission to spend to the cap if needed. He’d like to be 2 or 3 mil under.
- madmike71

They aren’t overrated. I’ve never heard anyone state anything more than “they are a good 4th line”. Which by all standards they are a good fourth line.

Seeing as they pretty much only get D zone starts I'm happy with them not getting scored on. They had some clutch goals in the regular season.

We have what should be 2 great scoring lines, if we have to rely on the 4th to score just to win games we're in trouble.

Now getting a 3rd that can chip in is totally a need

I like Zucker and I’m glad he’s on the team, but when you consider that trade was basically Kessel and a 1st for Zucker, the shine really wears off from a value point of view. Extra points off now that we all want Sullivan gone and Sullivan not getting along with Kessel is the reason he got shipped out.

Yes it looks like Kessel has regressed and hindsight is kind to the people calling to trade him, but that doesn’t change the fact that Phil had come off a PPG year and that trading a PPG guy PLUS a pick for a run in the mill top 6 complementary piece is poop value.
- Victoro311

I was a move Phil guy for a multitude of reasons, but I agree they didn't get a good enough return for him. Hands were tied when you have to trade him to one team and they use that leverage. POJ looks like a smart target playing 27 minutes in all situations as a 20 year old AHL rookie. Wish they would have gotten someone else or flipped Galchenyuk.

I think Zucker, while he'll never get Phil's numbers, is better than run of the mill. Had 20 goals 40 points in only 60 games and showed he might bump up a little here. But yeah we lost a 1st in that swap and it's questionable who got the better defensive prospect since they're very different.

I think it's still a win for the Pens, but the asset management I agree wasn't the best as they sold low and bought high.

From DK:

The Penguins are aggressively pursuing a college free agent, although Rutherford did not identify him. "We thought he was going back to school for another year," he said. "With the uncertainty of college hockey now, he's decided not to. This is a player we've followed for the last couple of years, and we like him." He added that the Penguins were interested in one of the 21 prospects from around the league who qualified for unrestricted free agency over the weekend but, "It sounds like we are probably not in the hunt for him. He has his mind set on another team."

first thought is... why only interested in one of the 21 prospects? I realize everyone is trying to get their hands on these kids but theyre literally free assets if you can get them. Why not try?
- YouMeAndDupuis9

Thanks for that article.

The Pens have 6 open spots on their 50 man contract limit. after signing RFAs, but that's with Poulin and Legare not making the team and they probably want to give both a chance. Also most teams want one or two spots free. So you don't want to spend too many spots on college free agents if you can only add 3 or 4 guys total including NHL and AHL free agents. Probably why Pavalchuk only got an AHL offer.

EDIT: They did already add two college UFAs and one European UFA so it's not like they're ignoring the market.

I would just drop zAR because out of the 3 he is the passenger on that line. Besides that there is more value in guys that can play against a 1st line and get Sid away from the other teams best players. Those mix matched 4th lines of guys who used to score are always poop it seems. I saw Matt a Martin chipping in on the goal scoring this weekend.
- Grinder47

This exactly. When the Pens don't have a line that can eat tough minutes and take defensive zone starts Crosby has to take those shifts. Freeing up Crosby for more offensive minutes is a better way to score than adding skilled 4th line guys you'd have to shelter.

The answer is better production from the other 3 lines.

Also I realize there's a cap concern in there, but Hornqvist actually scored more goals than anyone RW mentioned as better offensive players. And that's besides his effect on the PP as a net front presence. You would save money, but you wouldn't actually be upgrading the offense.

Also I realize there's a cap concern in there, but Hornqvist actually scored more goals than anyone RW mentioned as better offensive players. And that's besides his effect on the PP as a net front presence. You would save money, but you wouldn't actually be upgrading the offense.
- Tojo.

He just writes based off his own prejudices.

ZAR with shoulder surgery. Out 6 months.
- madmike71

Dang. Sounds like it could be rotator cuff. If so, I've had that and my shoulder has never been the same. With a condensed schedule, a late February return is pretty bad and this is the last year of his deal. I'm guessing he might be on the way out.

This exactly. When the Pens don't have a line that can eat tough minutes and take defensive zone starts Crosby has to take those shifts. Freeing up Crosby for more offensive minutes is a better way to score than adding skilled 4th line guys you'd have to shelter.

The answer is better production from the other 3 lines.
- Tojo.

Yeah, I think if we get a legit 1/2RW with some grit (easier said than done, I know) and I think a lot of these problems go away. McCann and Horny as a staple on the third line is pretty darn good, just need to find that third piece, either 3LW or 3C.

I also think a 4th line with Blueger and Tanev as the two staples is pretty darn good, too.

I would just drop zAR because out of the 3 he is the passenger on that line. Besides that there is more value in guys that can play against a 1st line and get Sid away from the other teams best players. Those mix matched 4th lines of guys who used to score are always poop it seems. I saw Matt a Martin chipping in on the goal scoring this weekend.
- Grinder47

Clutterbuck still looking half speedy, laying big hits and drawing penalties too.

Clutterbuck still looking half speedy, laying big hits and drawing penalties too.
- MattStrat

Fancy staters will do everything in their power to bash that line but they just simply work.

The wackadoodle third line deserves the most scorn out of any line this postseason, but the fourth line doesn’t exude a lot of confidence in their ability to chip in offense. They are exclusively defensive. Every shift you play them while trailing feels like a wasted shift.

Well this all just comes down to philosophy. The issue with the stereotypical "defensive" 4th line is that typically, you have a bunch of scrubs that aren't actually good at stopping the puck from going into your net. Talking about the Craig Adams, Tanner Glasses, Harry Z.'s, Taylor Pyatts of the world. But this isn't the case with the 4th line we have. They legitimately are defensively elite and can be deployed against top lines and be fine. That's not even the case for some "shut down" third lines out there. Yeah Tanev might be overpaid, but the fact we can ice a unit for under $5 mil that can give Crosby and Malkin a stress free breather and we can actually match up in a way that doesn't require playing best on best hockey where Sid is asked to go head to head against the other team's 1st line and score more goals is a pretty big asset to have as Crosby and Malkin get older. Even if these guys don't score. If they all cost $3.5 mil against the cap, then ok. You gotta score at that point, but collectively they are cheap.

The issue really is the simplest explanation here: the third line blows. That's it. That's the tweet. If the third line could provide any sort of scoring support in the easiest possible deployment (remember the 4th line is eating up a lot of the hardest minutes successfully), then we'd still be in the playoffs. The 4th line as constructed should actually facilitate more scoring out of the 3rd line because it enables them to get easy deployment, but they just sucked so bad that they couldn't manage it.

As for the wasted shifts when you're trailing? You can shorten the bench to three lines in the last five minutes of a game to try to buy goals. Happens all the time. The fact that Sully was still icing the 4th line with 2 minutes left of an elimination game down by a goal is a Coach Sullivan problem, not an issue of the fourth line. It would be like putting prime Phil Kessel on the PK. You really gonna say prime Kessel sucked if he's bleeding goals on the PK despite killing it in scoring, or are you going to fire the coach for ass deployment?

And again, if we're going by who can't score goals, the 3rd line is the real problem, so...

This is Rossi so take it for what it's worth but he is close to Malkin. Has also been an apologist for him.

Apparently Malkin has had this injury since 2016 and will need major surgery after his career. For now, he rehabs and this surgery was to clear out some accumulated scar tissue.

Noted this may have effected his slap shot which went from 13% over the past 3 years to 6.5% and that he didn't take many during the playoffs.

Also said during his exit interview he wants to retire a Penguin and still has confidence in Sully even though they clashed at times the previous year.

This is Rossi so take it for what it's worth but he is close to Malkin. Has also been an apologist for him.

Apparently Malkin has had this injury since 2016 and will need major surgery after his career. For now, he rehabs and this surgery was to clear out some accumulated scar tissue.

Noted this may have effected his slap shot which went from 13% over the past 3 years to 6.5% and that he didn't take many during the playoffs.

Also said during his exit interview he wants to retire a Penguin and still has confidence in Sully even though they clashed at times the previous year.
- Tojo.

Wow that's crazy if true.

Well this all just comes down to philosophy. The issue with the stereotypical "defensive" 4th line is that typically, you have a bunch of scrubs that aren't actually good at stopping the puck from going into your net. Talking about the Craig Adams, Tanner Glasses, Harry Z.'s, Taylor Pyatts of the world. But this isn't the case with the 4th line we have. They legitimately are defensively elite and can be deployed against top lines and be fine. That's not even the case for some "shut down" third lines out there. Yeah Tanev might be overpaid, but the fact we can ice a unit for under $5 mil that can give Crosby and Malkin a stress free breather and we can actually match up in a way that doesn't require playing best on best hockey where Sid is asked to go head to head against the other team's 1st line and score more goals is a pretty big asset to have as Crosby and Malkin get older. Even if these guys don't score. If they all cost $3.5 mil against the cap, then ok. You gotta score at that point, but collectively they are cheap.

The issue really is the simplest explanation here: the third line blows. That's it. That's the tweet. If the third line could provide any sort of scoring support in the easiest possible deployment (remember the 4th line is eating up a lot of the hardest minutes successfully), then we'd still be in the playoffs. The 4th line as constructed should actually facilitate more scoring out of the 3rd line because it enables them to get easy deployment, but they just sucked so bad that they couldn't manage it.

As for the wasted shifts when you're trailing? You can shorten the bench to three lines in the last five minutes of a game to try to buy goals. Happens all the time. The fact that Sully was still icing the 4th line with 2 minutes left of an elimination game down by a goal is a Coach Sullivan problem, not an issue of the fourth line. It would be like putting prime Phil Kessel on the PK. You really gonna say prime Kessel sucked if he's bleeding goals on the PK despite killing it in scoring, or are you going to fire the coach for ass deployment?

And again, if we're going by who can't score goals, the 3rd line is the real problem, so...
- Victoro311

whole lot of this. Is tanev overpriced by about a million? in my opinion, yeah. for a team always razor margin as the pens that isnt insignificant. but bleuger is an nhl player. and ZAR wasnt amazing but he is functional and cheap and does dictate well defensively. a fourth line that can siphon off those minutes for collectively under five million? that is not and will never be a reason youre sinking. in a cap world you have to give somewhere and they were a value.

the third line, i just truly dont know what to make of it. i'm fine with mccann on the team for a reasonable deal, but he cant be the engine on his own line. Hornqvist needs that. i dont know what the answer is. a good youngish center isnt likely a feasible add.

Fancy staters will do everything in their power to bash that line but they just simply work.
- Grinder47

It's a very good line, they just do work. How's that Sheets coming along?

Well a quick look shows Brand Tanev provides more tangible offense than Conor sheary and plays in tougher situations. So basically it’s just biased because he hits people.
- Grinder47

I like Tanev, he should have had a look with Sid and Jake.

This is Rossi so take it for what it's worth but he is close to Malkin. Has also been an apologist for him.

Apparently Malkin has had this injury since 2016 and will need major surgery after his career. For now, he rehabs and this surgery was to clear out some accumulated scar tissue.

Noted this may have effected his slap shot which went from 13% over the past 3 years to 6.5% and that he didn't take many during the playoffs.

Also said during his exit interview he wants to retire a Penguin and still has confidence in Sully even though they clashed at times the previous year.
- Tojo.

if true, all the more reason as a fan i simply just want him to ride out into the sunset here. also, if there is any legitimate smoke there, throws even more water onto the fire of whatever kind of return people realistically think theyd get for him.

if true, all the more reason as a fan i simply just want him to ride out into the sunset here. also, if there is any legitimate smoke there, throws even more water onto the fire of whatever kind of return people realistically think theyd get for him.
- stayinthefnnet

Even if healthy the return wouldn't be as good as Geno, it just barely happens that way.