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Forums :: Blog World :: James Tanner: Chayka News Doesn't Overshadow the Fact Coyotes Will Play Important Games
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abcpens10
Pittsburgh Penguins
Joined: 02.21.2018

Jul 28 @ 12:40 PM ET
Tanner I agree teams tend to win if they get those high draft picks as they get superstar talent.

I'll disagree on the Blue being the flukiest, as they were a good team, just had a terrible start. Their Corsi, Expected Goals, Scoring Chances, etc. were all in the top 10 and were in the top 5 in some categories. The Fluky part is being in last place in early January then going on a run to make the playoffs.
Atomic Wedgie
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: The centre of the hockey universe
Joined: 07.31.2006

Jul 28 @ 12:41 PM ET
If you think Kevin Hayes hurt the Flyers this year then you are watching the wrong sport. Watch a damn game and stop just looking at your hand picked stats.
- ClaudeFather

I'm going to step in here as a Leafs fan and point out that you've missed the point.

It's not that he's hurt the Flyers - it's that he takes up too much cap for what he does.

Now before you go all ape-poop on ol' Wedgie here, I personally guarantee that you've said the exact same thing about the Leafs having Tavares, Matthews, Marner and Nylander in the same stable.
Atomic Wedgie
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: The centre of the hockey universe
Joined: 07.31.2006

Jul 28 @ 12:43 PM ET
It wasn't real Analyticism.
- AdamFrench

I heard that Chayka told his scouts to stop using the eye test, and start using the smell test.
James Tanner
Joined: 12.21.2013

Jul 28 @ 12:44 PM ET
Coyotes To Name Youngest GM In NHL History

According to multiple sources, John Chayka will be named the Coyotes GM today.

Besides naming the youngest GM ever, the Coyotes will be the first NHL team to be run by, and not just advised, by a person who's connection to the game is through analytics/advanced stats and not having played in the NHL previously.

Chayka is the co-founder of a company called Stathletes and was hired last year as the analytics adviser to the team, and has gone from being ignored by Don Maloney to taking his job. The Coyotes now appear to be a team on the leading edge of using analytics and it will so exciting to see how this works out.


I will be back with a full commentary later today, but, in the meantime it's at least safe to say that Nicklas Grossmann won't be resigned now. Praise be.

https://hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=76790

Oh, and how about this gem:

Furthermore, Chayka started a company whose proprietary way of tracking hockey games was good enough and far enough beyond the basic analytic tools I use to evaluate players that he was hired by an NHL team so that they could potentially be the only ones with access to his methods. This makes him essentially a #1 overall draft pick of management guys. Arguably a good manager is more important than a good player, so if you have him, and the wind happens to be blowing very hard in the direction of analytics anyways, it makes sense to lock him up, while you can.

https://hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=76801

- Atomic Wedgie



I am confused here.

Are you saying that I should stay true to what I wrote three years ago despite getting a lot information that changed my mind in the intern?

I was led to believe that Chayka was THE analytics guy......but as time went on and I started talking to people like Dom Z, Ian Tulloch, JFresh, Ryan Stimson etc. I realized that what Chayka was doing with his company was vastly different from what the "analytics community" was doing with free public data.

Over time, they came to resent that people like me were promoting the narrative that he was their avatar. Again, there is so much information out there about this, and instead of re-reading my old crap for a lame "gotcha" moment, you could easily have spent that time learning something worthwhile.


ClaudeFather
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: west haven, CT
Joined: 08.14.2015

Jul 28 @ 12:44 PM ET
Honest question:

Why do people like you attack people or find reasons to ignore them if you don't like what they say?


Hayes compares poorly to other players on other teams who play the same role as he does. His 5v5 offense is poor, his 5v5 defense is so-so, and his only real contributions are on the PP where you don't need to pay a player 8 million to get them.

The fact is, he plays a type of game that we have always been told makes a big impact, and so you believe that anyone who says differently must be an idiot, despite it turning out that when you measure things instead of guessing, players like Hayes just aren't that helpful.

- James_Tanner

He’s been one of our best penalty killers, great locker room guy, scored some really timely goals. Is he over paid, probably a little but to say he’s not helpful is just asinine. It’s the total
Package not just your 5v5 stat.
James Tanner
Joined: 12.21.2013

Jul 28 @ 12:45 PM ET
Tanner I agree teams tend to win if they get those high draft picks as they get superstar talent.

I'll disagree on the Blue being the flukiest, as they were a good team, just had a terrible start. Their Corsi, Expected Goals, Scoring Chances, etc. were all in the top 10 and were in the top 5 in some categories. The Fluky part is being in last place in early January then going on a run to make the playoffs.

- abcpens10

'

OK I like your reverse line of thinking here. It checks out. BUT Binnington started the season as a B list prospect and took a last place team to the Cup with a bizarrely high save percentage. That is the part that is crazy.
ClaudeFather
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: west haven, CT
Joined: 08.14.2015

Jul 28 @ 12:46 PM ET
I'm going to step in here as a Leafs fan and point out that you've missed the point.

It's not that he's hurt the Flyers - it's that he takes up too much cap for what he does.

Now before you go all ape-poop on ol' Wedgie here, I personally guarantee that you've said the exact same thing about the Leafs having Tavares, Matthews, Marner and Nylander in the same stable.

- Atomic Wedgie

He is probably over paid like most guys that hit UFA but he isn’t preventing us from having good depth on forward and D or a backup goalie, I’d argue the leafs are in a different situation because of their high paid guys.
James Tanner
Joined: 12.21.2013

Jul 28 @ 12:47 PM ET
He’s been one of our best penalty killers, great locker room guy, scored some really timely goals. Is he over paid, probably a little but to say he’s not helpful is just asinine. It’s the total
Package not just your 5v5 stat.

- ClaudeFather



Look, I don't make up the stats, I just report them. His Jfresh player card says this:

He was worth 3 wins last year to secure the big contract, then declined to being worth negative value this year -.02 wins, better than only 19% of the NHL.

He is a great PK player, better than 75% of the NHL, but that is such a small, small portion of the game they don't give it a big impact.

Tonybere
New York Rangers
Location: ON
Joined: 02.04.2016

Jul 28 @ 12:48 PM ET
The NHL analytics community has disowned Chayka from the beginning, constantly being annoyed that he was their most prominent member from a media narrative standpoint, but following almost none of their beliefs.

You can look this up, there is a ton of stuff out there, it's not my job to prove anything to you.

As for St. Louis, I suggest you look up they logical fallacy of anecdotal evidence. One example doesn't mean (frank) all. If you want to compete every year in the NHL, it's almost impossible to do so without high-end players, which are nearly impossible to get if you don't win the draft lottery.

The Bruins had three players who were not high-end picks magically turn into three of the top players in the NHL. If this happens, you are right, you do not need a top draft pick.

Pierre Bergeron, Brad Marchand and David Pastrnak have all somehow become players worthy of a #1 overall pick. But this rarely happens.

Nine of the last eleven Cup winners have had a top-two pick on their roster. The exceptions being Boston (see above) and the Blues, who won perhaps the flukiest cup of all time.

- James_Tanner


Quick question for you.
How many morons would a moron moron, if a moron could moron moron?
Aetherial
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Has anyone discussed the standings today?
Joined: 06.30.2006

Jul 28 @ 12:48 PM ET
The NHL analytics community...
- James_Tanner



I stopped there. I couldn't stop laughing enough to continue reading whatever idiocy was bound to follow in that theme.
James Tanner
Joined: 12.21.2013

Jul 28 @ 12:48 PM ET
I'm going to step in here as a Leafs fan and point out that you've missed the point.

It's not that he's hurt the Flyers - it's that he takes up too much cap for what he does.

Now before you go all ape-poop on ol' Wedgie here, I personally guarantee that you've said the exact same thing about the Leafs having Tavares, Matthews, Marner and Nylander in the same stable.

- Atomic Wedgie



Yes this exactly. If there was no cap, you could get five Kevin Hayesses. But the opportunity cost of paying him that much literally hurt the team.
James Tanner
Joined: 12.21.2013

Jul 28 @ 12:49 PM ET
He is probably over paid like most guys that hit UFA but he isn’t preventing us from having good depth on forward and D or a backup goalie, I’d argue the leafs are in a different situation because of their high paid guys.
- ClaudeFather



The Leafs are actually in a much better situation because their highly paid guys have been worth the money, while they have been among the best in the league at securing league minimum players who have big impacts.
Aetherial
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Has anyone discussed the standings today?
Joined: 06.30.2006

Jul 28 @ 12:51 PM ET
It's like watching a dog chase its tail. Funny, but also sad.
- James_Tanner


So, he makes some great points, using actual facts, and this is your response.

That is comically weak, as usual.

corduroy
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: “How many times is she gonna ask this f'n question?”, NT
Joined: 12.09.2006

Jul 28 @ 12:52 PM ET
Good Riddance to this guy?



This is an important day for the Arizona Coyotes, the NHL, and hockey in general.

It is rare, in the conservative NHL, that anyone makes a move that shocks anyone. The NHL management ranks and mainstream analysts are filled to the brim with ex-Players, in what is the very definition of an "old boys club."

Apparently, you can only really know the game if you've played it and there in lies the biggest discrepancy/grudge/sticking point between what we will have to call, for lack of a better term, the "Analytics Community" and the "Mainstream NHL Community."

John Chayka is the perfect guy to cross this divide then, because he is a guy who played hockey to Junior A and then started his own analytics company that led to him being hired to the NHL to head up the Coyotes' analytics department.

The reason I say this is an important day for the NHL is because it's been obvious for a long time now that recycling the same old executives and coaches is a really bad way of doing things. It is asinine to think that the best minds for running a team and evaluating players is limited to people who used to play in the NHL. Not to trot out an old cliche, but professional athletes do not tend to have higher education and are not trained in critical thinking, risk/reward management, logical fallacies, game theory etc.

They also get hit in the head a lot. So, it makes sense to leave the playing to the players and the managing to people trained to do it. One of the reasons analytic people are often agahst at the suggestion of people brought up on the dogma of any particular sport is because analytics are basically just science: they universally make everything better. So ignoring this makes no sense, while at the same time, people brought up on the dogma of a sport have basically been indoctrinated into thinking about their sport unquestionably, like a religion, and as such both groups clash.



But no real person does everything just one way. And just because Chayka is an analytics guy first, doesn't mean he isn't open to other ways of thinking.

There will be the usual criticism from the usual dinosaurs. The media, many of whom are dogmatic, NHL-management sycophants, will hate this with the same passion they hate bloggers, so this ought to be fun.

It's a real victory, this hiring is, to those of use who get mocked en masse for trying to look beyond the traditional beliefs about our sport that are ingrained in all of us and the way we think. You'd think this would end the mocking of things like Corsi, but I doubt it. Who cares anyway though, I guess. The important thing is that the Coyotes just did a really cool thing.

What follows is just be overcoming some objections to the hiring that people are already having. Enjoy.

Why not make him an assistant GM and let him “get his feet wet” before taking such a big risk?

The Coyotes didn’t take as big a risk as it seems. They are a team that doesn’t/can’t spend to the cap, who have been doing things by the book for the last decade. For instance: Don Maloney, an ex-player, was making decisions based on hockey dogma , while leading a group of advisers who all failed when given an opportunity, but who get recycled because they “know the game,” guys like Darcy Reiger, Claude Loiselle. Basically they were doing what every other team does and they were losing while doing it. So it makes sense to take a shot at getting an edge by doing things in a way no one else is, and giving a chance to the kind of person no one else would.

The Coyotes are in a situation where they have everything to gain and nothing to lose. If Chayka is a disaster, then who cares? It’s not like they were already killing it and tore down everything good just to make a change.

Furthermore, Chayka started a company whose proprietary way of tracking hockey games was good enough and far enough beyond the basic analytic tools I use to evaluate players that he was hired by an NHL team so that they could potentially be the only ones with access to his methods. This makes him essentially a #1 overall draft pick of management guys. Arguably a good manager is more important than a good player, so if you have him, and the wind happens to be blowing very hard in the direction of analytics anyways, it makes sense to lock him up, while you can.




“Aren’t you concerned that he won’t be able to negotiate contracts, trade with other GMs etc.?”

No. First, one has to consider that giving Dave Tippett an “expanded role” is partly to address this. (Although, it should also be because having Dave Tippett and not giving him input is just stupid in and of itself. If you don’t want input from your coach, you need a new coach or a new way of doing things).

Second, all teams have a contract point man and I doubt it’s ever the GM. They also have capologists and lawyers.

Third, as far as trades go, a lot of teams have multiple people who work on negotiations, probably depending on who on the other team they want to talk to, and specific to each situation. There also isn’t going to be a situation where some old-school GM acts like he’s five and doesn’t take the guy's calls.

It is entirely reasonable to think that a guy who could start his own company and be hired to the NHL at 25 and then be a GM at 26 is smart enough to learn what he currently doesn’t know and to surround himself with people who have the experience he doesn’t have.

“If he’s so good, how come the Coyotes weren’t any better under his watch.”

I have had enough people tell me that Don Maloney almost always completely ignored the information/suggestions that Chayka and his team were bringing him, that, when coupled with team Maloney put out there this year, leads me to believe that it is true.

So we can’t really judge him based on anything the Coyotes have done yet.

"Why would "Analytics" be a big deal anyway?"

The reasons to believe going further than anyone else has yet to go with analytics might give you an edge over other teams are as follows 1) Analytics are essentially the observation of a thing, recording what happens and then applying that knowledge to form theories about how something works. It is essentially just science. It is also something that is so universally successful and inherent to the way our society runs, and yet for some reason in sports it is scoffed at. 2) Since sports are so loathe to accept new ways of doing things, it seems obvious that there are areas to exploit. 3) There are lots of ways to apply analytics, not just to player evaluation. You could also analyze how badly other teams are run and once you've identified which teams those are, you could try to steal their players. 4) Anything that is a mixture of chance and skill (like managing a hockey team) is improved upon by having more information. You won't always win if you do things right, but over time, you if you always make better decisions than your competition because you have more/different information, you will succeed eventually.




“This is just a way for the Coyotes to be cheap.”

Non-sense. The Coyotes might not be the kind of team that pays Mike Babcock seven million dollars every year, but if they don’t pay their guys in the same ballpark as other GMs, then they won’t be keeping anyone good for very long. Sure, since he wasn’t getting this job on any other team, Chayka may have been a cheaper option, but it makes sense to get the cheaper option if there is value built in, and there is definitely massive up side here.

So, cheap isn’t automatically a negative. Sure, if the Coyotes were in a different situation, they might not go with Chayka, but that is the kind of situation that always leads to innovation. It’s not always best to just hire the most expensive guy. I wouldn’t rather have Peter Chiarelli or Bob Murray than John Chayka.


“He has no experience”

If you don’t think experience is overrated, then ask yourself why three teams are apparently looking to at least consider Randy Carlyle for a job? Bob Murray just fired Bruce Bourdreau.

The experience of Don Maloney gave you a full season of Klaus Dahlbeck, Zbynek Michalek and Nick Grossmann as half an NHL team’s defense.

So who cares about experience?

“Stats don’t tell the whole story”

Obviously. That is why Chayka won’t fire his scouting department, and why he will surround himself with people who are also smart. If you’re smart enough to get where he has gotten himself, you’re smart enough to realize that you don’t know everything.

Thanks for reading.

https://hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=76801
ClaudeFather
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: west haven, CT
Joined: 08.14.2015

Jul 28 @ 12:52 PM ET
Look, I don't make up the stats, I just report them. His Jfresh player card says this:

He was worth 3 wins last year to secure the big contract, then declined to being worth negative value this year -.02 wins, better than only 19% of the NHL.

He is a great PK player, better than 75% of the NHL, but that is such a small, small portion of the game they don't give it a big impact.

- James_Tanner

I totally forgot the jfresh player card is the end all be all, thank you for your time James. You are doing just as well as Chayka
Aetherial
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: Has anyone discussed the standings today?
Joined: 06.30.2006

Jul 28 @ 12:54 PM ET
Good Riddance to this guy?



This is an important day for the Arizona Coyotes, the NHL, and hockey in general.

It is rare, in the conservative NHL, that anyone makes a move that shocks anyone. The NHL management ranks and mainstream analysts are filled to the brim with ex-Players, in what is the very definition of an "old boys club."

Apparently, you can only really know the game if you've played it and there in lies the biggest discrepancy/grudge/sticking point between what we will have to call, for lack of a better term, the "Analytics Community" and the "Mainstream NHL Community."

John Chayka is the perfect guy to cross this divide then, because he is a guy who played hockey to Junior A and then started his own analytics company that led to him being hired to the NHL to head up the Coyotes' analytics department.

The reason I say this is an important day for the NHL is because it's been obvious for a long time now that recycling the same old executives and coaches is a really bad way of doing things. It is asinine to think that the best minds for running a team and evaluating players is limited to people who used to play in the NHL. Not to trot out an old cliche, but professional athletes do not tend to have higher education and are not trained in critical thinking, risk/reward management, logical fallacies, game theory etc.

They also get hit in the head a lot. So, it makes sense to leave the playing to the players and the managing to people trained to do it. One of the reasons analytic people are often agahst at the suggestion of people brought up on the dogma of any particular sport is because analytics are basically just science: they universally make everything better. So ignoring this makes no sense, while at the same time, people brought up on the dogma of a sport have basically been indoctrinated into thinking about their sport unquestionably, like a religion, and as such both groups clash.



But no real person does everything just one way. And just because Chayka is an analytics guy first, doesn't mean he isn't open to other ways of thinking.

There will be the usual criticism from the usual dinosaurs. The media, many of whom are dogmatic, NHL-management sycophants, will hate this with the same passion they hate bloggers, so this ought to be fun.

It's a real victory, this hiring is, to those of use who get mocked en masse for trying to look beyond the traditional beliefs about our sport that are ingrained in all of us and the way we think. You'd think this would end the mocking of things like Corsi, but I doubt it. Who cares anyway though, I guess. The important thing is that the Coyotes just did a really cool thing.

What follows is just be overcoming some objections to the hiring that people are already having. Enjoy.

Why not make him an assistant GM and let him “get his feet wet” before taking such a big risk?

The Coyotes didn’t take as big a risk as it seems. They are a team that doesn’t/can’t spend to the cap, who have been doing things by the book for the last decade. For instance: Don Maloney, an ex-player, was making decisions based on hockey dogma , while leading a group of advisers who all failed when given an opportunity, but who get recycled because they “know the game,” guys like Darcy Reiger, Claude Loiselle. Basically they were doing what every other team does and they were losing while doing it. So it makes sense to take a shot at getting an edge by doing things in a way no one else is, and giving a chance to the kind of person no one else would.

The Coyotes are in a situation where they have everything to gain and nothing to lose. If Chayka is a disaster, then who cares? It’s not like they were already killing it and tore down everything good just to make a change.

Furthermore, Chayka started a company whose proprietary way of tracking hockey games was good enough and far enough beyond the basic analytic tools I use to evaluate players that he was hired by an NHL team so that they could potentially be the only ones with access to his methods. This makes him essentially a #1 overall draft pick of management guys. Arguably a good manager is more important than a good player, so if you have him, and the wind happens to be blowing very hard in the direction of analytics anyways, it makes sense to lock him up, while you can.




“Aren’t you concerned that he won’t be able to negotiate contracts, trade with other GMs etc.?”

No. First, one has to consider that giving Dave Tippett an “expanded role” is partly to address this. (Although, it should also be because having Dave Tippett and not giving him input is just stupid in and of itself. If you don’t want input from your coach, you need a new coach or a new way of doing things).

Second, all teams have a contract point man and I doubt it’s ever the GM. They also have capologists and lawyers.

Third, as far as trades go, a lot of teams have multiple people who work on negotiations, probably depending on who on the other team they want to talk to, and specific to each situation. There also isn’t going to be a situation where some old-school GM acts like he’s five and doesn’t take the guy's calls.

It is entirely reasonable to think that a guy who could start his own company and be hired to the NHL at 25 and then be a GM at 26 is smart enough to learn what he currently doesn’t know and to surround himself with people who have the experience he doesn’t have.

“If he’s so good, how come the Coyotes weren’t any better under his watch.”

I have had enough people tell me that Don Maloney almost always completely ignored the information/suggestions that Chayka and his team were bringing him, that, when coupled with team Maloney put out there this year, leads me to believe that it is true.

So we can’t really judge him based on anything the Coyotes have done yet.

"Why would "Analytics" be a big deal anyway?"

The reasons to believe going further than anyone else has yet to go with analytics might give you an edge over other teams are as follows 1) Analytics are essentially the observation of a thing, recording what happens and then applying that knowledge to form theories about how something works. It is essentially just science. It is also something that is so universally successful and inherent to the way our society runs, and yet for some reason in sports it is scoffed at. 2) Since sports are so loathe to accept new ways of doing things, it seems obvious that there are areas to exploit. 3) There are lots of ways to apply analytics, not just to player evaluation. You could also analyze how badly other teams are run and once you've identified which teams those are, you could try to steal their players. 4) Anything that is a mixture of chance and skill (like managing a hockey team) is improved upon by having more information. You won't always win if you do things right, but over time, you if you always make better decisions than your competition because you have more/different information, you will succeed eventually.




“This is just a way for the Coyotes to be cheap.”

Non-sense. The Coyotes might not be the kind of team that pays Mike Babcock seven million dollars every year, but if they don’t pay their guys in the same ballpark as other GMs, then they won’t be keeping anyone good for very long. Sure, since he wasn’t getting this job on any other team, Chayka may have been a cheaper option, but it makes sense to get the cheaper option if there is value built in, and there is definitely massive up side here.

So, cheap isn’t automatically a negative. Sure, if the Coyotes were in a different situation, they might not go with Chayka, but that is the kind of situation that always leads to innovation. It’s not always best to just hire the most expensive guy. I wouldn’t rather have Peter Chiarelli or Bob Murray than John Chayka.


“He has no experience”

If you don’t think experience is overrated, then ask yourself why three teams are apparently looking to at least consider Randy Carlyle for a job? Bob Murray just fired Bruce Bourdreau.

The experience of Don Maloney gave you a full season of Klaus Dahlbeck, Zbynek Michalek and Nick Grossmann as half an NHL team’s defense.

So who cares about experience?

“Stats don’t tell the whole story”

Obviously. That is why Chayka won’t fire his scouting department, and why he will surround himself with people who are also smart. If you’re smart enough to get where he has gotten himself, you’re smart enough to realize that you don’t know everything.

Thanks for reading.

https://hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=76801

- corduroy



ClaudeFather
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: west haven, CT
Joined: 08.14.2015

Jul 28 @ 12:54 PM ET
The Leafs are actually in a much better situation because their highly paid guys have been worth the money, while they have been among the best in the league at securing league minimum players who have big impacts.
- James_Tanner

Can’t wait for the leafs to lose in the first , or play in round and the same old questions arise. But you know what, theyre actually doing great according to James tanner .
gergeswillems
Detroit Red Wings
Location: Malkin wants to be The Man, ON
Joined: 02.01.2016

Jul 28 @ 12:55 PM ET
I totally forgot the jfresh player card is the end all be all, thank you for your time James. You are doing just as well as Chayka
- ClaudeFather

It's all about the Jfresh player card.
corduroy
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: “How many times is she gonna ask this f'n question?”, NT
Joined: 12.09.2006

Jul 28 @ 12:55 PM ET
Give one specific decision by Chayka that this mythical "analyst" community thought was insane.

So St.Louis and Boston prove that you can be a perennial contender without a top 10 pick. The Caps won a Cup with Ovechkin, what was that, like 14 years after he was drafted. Arizona has had 8 top 10 picks since Ovechkin, 4 of them in the top 5, so what's their excuse? Bad drafting. Bad management. Bad trading.

- Kooleus


PDO
Garnie
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: ON
Joined: 11.30.2009

Jul 28 @ 12:55 PM ET
'

OK I like your reverse line of thinking here. It checks out. BUT Binnington started the season as a B list prospect and took a last place team to the Cup with a bizarrely high save percentage. That is the part that is crazy.

- James_Tanner


Maybe it was the coaching change? Or a bit of both...luck and some good coaching?
Let’s take a look at Allen’s #’s now.
gergeswillems
Detroit Red Wings
Location: Malkin wants to be The Man, ON
Joined: 02.01.2016

Jul 28 @ 12:57 PM ET
Maybe it was the coaching change? Or a bit of both...luck and some good coaching.

Let’s take a look at Allen’s #’s now.

- Garnie

Nah. Blues winning the Cup was random luck. They weren't even ranked in the top 10 Jfresh card hero charts.
corduroy
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: “How many times is she gonna ask this f'n question?”, NT
Joined: 12.09.2006

Jul 28 @ 12:58 PM ET
I heard that Chayka told his scouts to stop using the eye test, and start using the smell test.
- Atomic Wedgie



Joe Biden approves of this message
James Tanner
Joined: 12.21.2013

Jul 28 @ 1:00 PM ET
So, he makes some great points, using actual facts, and this is your response.

That is comically weak, as usual.

- Aetherial


His points were incredibly ridiculous and he ignored my actual rebuttal. Why would i rebut his pivot? Come on
Garnie
Toronto Maple Leafs
Location: ON
Joined: 11.30.2009

Jul 28 @ 1:00 PM ET
Nah. Blues winning the Cup was random luck. They weren't even ranked in the top 10 Jfresh card hero charts.
- gergeswillems


Must suck when the captain of the team goes to hoist it and it reads:

Stanley Luck Champions

corduroy
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: “How many times is she gonna ask this f'n question?”, NT
Joined: 12.09.2006

Jul 28 @ 1:01 PM ET
I totally forgot the jfresh player card is the end all be all, thank you for your time James. You are doing just as well as Chayka
- ClaudeFather


jFresh and


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