Bill Meltzer: Meltzer's Musings: Five-on-Five Play Will Tell the Tale, Quick Hits

Bill Meltzer: Meltzer's Musings: Five-on-Five Play Will Tell the Tale, Quick Hits
- bmeltzer

Great stuff Bill!

To me, the key to ES success lies in having all 5 skaters commit to playing the system and working hard in all 3 zones. Its not rocket science, keep the feet moving, the gaps short and work hard in the corners and along the walls and you will achieve success. The Flyers best teams, the Bullies and the mid 80s Keenan clubs, may not have been the most skilled teams in the league, however they were, by far, the hardest working teams of their eras.

Bill Meltzer: Meltzer's Musings: Five-on-Five Play Will Tell the Tale, Quick Hits
- bmeltzer

Great blog, really in depth and thoughtful.

I assume the two D are Grossman and L. Schenn. What to do about it, if anything?

To anyone: If you were to rank the top five players at even strength last year which would you include? Bottom 5 even strength players?

Great blog, really in depth and thoughtful.

I assume the two D are Grossman and L. Schenn. What to do about it, if anything?

To anyone: If you were to rank the top five players at even strength last year which would you include? Bottom 5 even strength players?
- coffee junkie

I can live with a couple players on the roster who are below-average skaters so long as they compensate in other ways. A team needs some physicality and muscle as well.

I can live with a couple players on the roster who are below-average skaters so long as they compensate in other ways. A team needs some physicality and muscle as well.
- bmeltzer

Exactly
A good D corps is a mix of puck movers and big, strong guys. You can't win with 6 Luke Schenns, nor will you be sucessful with 6 Keith Yandles.

However, having 6 Ray Bourques would probably work out pretty well!!

Great stuff Bill!

To me, the key to ES success lies in having all 5 skaters commit to playing the system and working hard in all 3 zones. Its not rocket science, keep the feet moving, the gaps short and work hard in the corners and along the walls and you will achieve success. The Flyers best teams, the Bullies and the mid 80s Keenan clubs, may not have been the most skilled teams in the league, however they were, by far, the hardest working teams of their eras.
- BiggE

This is what will make or break them this year, the whole 'play as a unit' concept. I hope we like what we see.

I can live with a couple players on the roster who are below-average skaters so long as they compensate in other ways. A team needs some physicality and muscle as well.
- bmeltzer

I agree a mix is good. Of course, some players have a mix inside of them as well. Morin, Alt and Hagg are hopeful candidates. AMAC and Coburn are a current example. It will all come down to winning. If they win, no one will question the mix, if they lose all fingers will immediately be pointed at those two.

I was wondering out of the Flyers forwards from last year, which had the lowest Fenwick/Corsi, goal differentials, slowest foot speed and ability to react in a timely manner and a practical eye test during 5-5 (indicators of worst at 5-5) and which had the best. Would be an interesting addition to the blog. This effort has been done for Vinny: http://www.broadstreethoc...strength-possession-yikes

The main argument is using WOWWY (Comparing the corsi of other players at 5-5 with the highlighted player and without player on the ice). Of course we all know there is more to the story then Corsi but it is interesting none-the-less. Someone could do this for the whole team and it would be interesting IMHO (I don't have time as I am writing a paper).


As far as the eye test, for me, it looks like this:

'Best' 5-5 would be:

1. G
2. Voracheck
3.Coots
4. Read
5. RJ (hopefully)

Worst would be:

1. Rinaldo (had to)
2. Rosehill
3. VL
4 Akeson
5. Simmonds (most of his points come on the PP)

But it would be very interesting to see others thoughts on this. Of course we can easily see how the coach feels about this issue by ice time allocated to players at 5-5.

Edit: there is also the variable of chemistry. Like a unicorn it is hard to fully define and measure.

I agree a mix is good. Of course, some players have a mix inside of them as well. Morin, Alt and Hagg are hopeful candidates. AMAC and Coburn are a current example. It will all come down to winning. If they win, no one will question the mix, if they lose all fingers will immediately be pointed at those two.

I was wondering out of the Flyers forwards from last year, which had the lowest Fenwick/Corsi, goal differentials, slowest foot speed and ability to react in a timely manner and a practical eye test during 5-5 (indicators of worst at 5-5) and which had the best. Would be an interesting addition to the blog. This effort has been done for Vinny: http://www.broadstreethoc...strength-possession-yikes

The main argument is using WOWWY (Comparing the corsi of other players at 5-5 with the highlighted player and without player on the ice). Of course we all know there is more to the story then Corsi but it is interesting none-the-less. Someone could do this for the whole team and it would be interesting IMHO (I don't have time as I am writing a paper).


As far as the eye test, for me, it looks like this:

'Best' 5-5 would be:

1. G
2. Voracheck
3.Coots
4. Read
5. RJ (hopefully)

Worst would be:

1. Rinaldo (had to)
2. Rosehill
3. VL
4 Akeson
5. Simmonds (most of his points come on the PP)

But it would be very interesting to see others thoughts on this. Of course we can easily see how the coach feels about this issue by ice time allocated to players at 5-5.
- coffee junkie

Not true about Simmonds. He scored 60 points last season, and had 24 points on the PP. Simmonds ranked 3rd on the team in ES points among forwards last year. Of course there is more to strong ES play then just point production.

Not true about Simmonds. He scored 60 points last season, and had 24 points on the PP. Simmonds ranked 3rd on the team in ES points among forwards last year. Of course there is more to strong ES play then just point production.
- MJL

Thank you, my bad. How about B. Schenn? I was at a bit of a hard place putting a #5 in there.

Edit: it is also based on eye test and not just points. I certainly wouldn't put him in my top 5.

I agree a mix is good. Of course, some players have a mix inside of them as well. Morin, Alt and Hagg are hopeful candidates. AMAC and Coburn are a current example. It will all come down to winning. If they win, no one will question the mix, if they lose all fingers will immediately be pointed at those two.

I was wondering out of the Flyers forwards from last year, which had the lowest Fenwick/Corsi, goal differentials, slowest foot speed and ability to react in a timely manner and a practical eye test during 5-5 (indicators of worst at 5-5) and which had the best. Would be an interesting addition to the blog. This effort has been done for Vinny: http://www.broadstreethoc...strength-possession-yikes

The main argument is using WOWWY (Comparing the corsi of other players at 5-5 with the highlighted player and without player on the ice). Of course we all know there is more to the story then Corsi but it is interesting none-the-less. Someone could do this for the whole team and it would be interesting IMHO (I don't have time as I am writing a paper).


As far as the eye test, for me, it looks like this:

'Best' 5-5 would be:

1. G
2. Voracheck
3.Coots
4. Read
5. RJ (hopefully)

Worst would be:

1. Rinaldo (had to)
2. Rosehill
3. VL
4 Akeson
5. Simmonds (most of his points come on the PP)

But it would be very interesting to see others thoughts on this. Of course we can easily see how the coach feels about this issue by ice time allocated to players at 5-5.

Edit: there is also the variable of chemistry. Like a unicorn it is hard to fully define and measure.
- coffee junkie

AKESON!?!?!?! HOW CAN YOU INCLUDE HIM IN THIS WHEN WE HAVEN'T SEEN HIM PLAY ENOUGH!?!?!?!

Edirt: Nvm. Lack of PT argument only applies to anything positive he's displayed.

I think that, in order to properly execute any kind of system, there needs to be chemistry established from the outset. For this to happen, I think that the line juggling (which got a little excessive at times in the past) needs to be cut to a minimum.

I understand that injuries, etc. can wreak havoc on this and cause some issues, but moving a player like VL around the lineup to try to "find the right fit" can delay the process of establishing chemistry significantly. I think they need to spend time constructing their line combos and stick with them for a little longer. Let the players figure out the strengths and weaknesses of their linemates so they can better understand where they will/can be on the ice in a given situation.

Thinking quicker can only take you so far if you have to question your decision making constantly. Making the quick, smart decision will take you a long way.

AKESON!?!?!?! HOW CAN YOU INCLUDE HIM IN THIS WHEN WE HAVEN'T SEEN HIM PLAY ENOUGH!?!?!?!

Edirt: Nvm. Lack of PT argument only applies to anything positive he's displayed.
- PhillySportsGuy

LACK OF FOOT SPEED AND LACK OF FORECHECKING. But point well taken, I'm a fan of giving him a chance on the roster for the first 15 games for evaluation. ALSO I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOUR EDIRT MEANS!?!

LACK OF FOOT SPEED AND LACK OF FORECHECKING. But point well taken, I'm a fan of giving him a chance on the roster for the first 15 games for evaluation. ALSO I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOUR EDIRT MEANS!?!
- coffee junkie

Electronic dirt, Apple announced it was launching a line yesterday.

I have said this before and will say it again: Five-on-five success can be achieved in many different ways. It's about team play and puck support and most certainly about players keeping their feet moving (even if they lack blazing speed).
- bmeltzer

It's pretty noticeable when the puck support sags. It's tough to win those one-on-two battles along the boards.

Bad decisions with the puck, especially ones that cost at least a play at the net if not a legit scoring opportunity, are also an issue when the team is struggling. Guys get caught in the extremes of trying to do too much and standing around and don't play the game the right way.

Electronic dirt, Apple announced it was launching a line yesterday.
- eichiefs9

Kind of like E-cigs

Electronic dirt, Apple announced it was launching a line yesterday.
- eichiefs9

Cool, what does it do?

Cool, what does it do?
- coffee junkie

You use it to cover all the e-poop that gets shat all over the internets.

I think that, in order to properly execute any kind of system, there needs to be chemistry established from the outset. For this to happen, I think that the line juggling (which got a little excessive at times in the past) needs to be cut to a minimum.

I understand that injuries, etc. can wreak havoc on this and cause some issues, but moving a player like VL around the lineup to try to "find the right fit" can delay the process of establishing chemistry significantly. I think they need to spend time constructing their line combos and stick with them for a little longer. Let the players figure out the strengths and weaknesses of their linemates so they can better understand where they will/can be on the ice in a given situation.

Thinking quicker can only take you so far if you have to question your decision making constantly. Making the quick, smart decision will take you a long way.
- Coleman

I think Vinny needs a winger with speed and that is why I keep pushing for Voracek to be paired with VLC.

That line of Schenn VLC and Simmonds didn't scare any team in the neutral zone. Opposing defensemen would be skating to the bench for a snack and a cup of coffee and still have time to get back in the play.

Giroux needs bonified finishers with him, so put Simmonds and Schenn on his line.

LACK OF FOOT SPEED AND LACK OF FORECHECKING. But point well taken, I'm a fan of giving him a chance on the roster for the first 15 games for evaluation. ALSO I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOUR EDIRT MEANS!?!
- coffee junkie

I'd put Hall in the worst 5-on-5 category. His strengths were winning faceoffs and playing on the PK. After that...not much there.

I think that, in order to properly execute any kind of system, there needs to be chemistry established from the outset. For this to happen, I think that the line juggling (which got a little excessive at times in the past) needs to be cut to a minimum.

I understand that injuries, etc. can wreak havoc on this and cause some issues, but moving a player like VL around the lineup to try to "find the right fit" can delay the process of establishing chemistry significantly. I think they need to spend time constructing their line combos and stick with them for a little longer. Let the players figure out the strengths and weaknesses of their linemates so they can better understand where they will/can be on the ice in a given situation.

Thinking quicker can only take you so far if you have to question your decision making constantly. Making the quick, smart decision will take you a long way.
- Coleman

I think you have a point, but a Coach just can't sit back and stick with something for very long when it's clearly not working. Especially when the team is in a whole with a 1-7 start.
Part of the problem is that the Flyers have a team of good players overall. But how do they fit and mesh with each other. That's the issue.

I think Vinny needs a winger with speed and that is why I keep pushing for Voracek to be paired with VLC.

That line of Schenn VLC and Simmonds didn't scare any team in the neutral zone. Opposing defensemen would be skating to the bench for a snack and a cup of coffee and still have time to get back in the play.

Giroux needs bonified finishers with him, so put Simmonds and Schenn on his line.
- MBFlyerfan

Yes please!!

I think you have a point, but
- MJL[B]a Coach just can't sit back and stick with something for very long when it's clearly not working.[/B] Especially when the team is in a whole with a 1-7 start.
Part of the problem is that the Flyers have a team of good players overall. But how do they fit and mesh with each other. That's the issue.

Except for continuing to play Steve Downie when he's clearly not getting any better over the course of about 30 games.

I think Vinny needs a winger with speed and that is why I keep pushing for Voracek to be paired with VLC.

That line of Schenn VLC and Simmonds didn't scare any team in the neutral zone. Opposing defensemen would be skating to the bench for a snack and a cup of coffee and still have time to get back in the play.

Giroux needs bonified finishers with him, so put Simmonds and Schenn on his line.
- MBFlyerfan

Pro's and cons to it. I think Voracek would be great for Lecavalier. And could be the puck carrier and offensive catalyst that Lecavalier could fed off of. But I think playing Schenn and Simmonds could hurt the Giroux line. Neither are adept at carrying the puck, so teams could easier focus on Giroux. But might just have to put together and see what happens.

I think Vinny needs a winger with speed and that is why I keep pushing for Voracek to be paired with VLC.

That line of Schenn VLC and Simmonds didn't scare any team in the neutral zone. Opposing defensemen would be skating to the bench for a snack and a cup of coffee and still have time to get back in the play.

Giroux needs bonified finishers with him, so put Simmonds and Schenn on his line.
- MBFlyerfan

I agree with your premise, but I'd hate to break up Voracek and Giroux, much like I don't want to break up Couturier and Read. They may fit better on paper on other lines, but I love the chemistry they have with each other.

Except for continuing to play Steve Downie when he's clearly not getting any better over the course of about 30 games.
- jmatchett383

Well we discussed that on the other thread where I shared my thoughts on why that was done. But we can continue that discussion here if you'd like.