What's funny is not making the playoffs for so many years with all those all-stars on the Leafs roster. Tell me if your team has so many great players that WILL not be traded for a top goalie why is it that Toronto has not made said playoffs in a sport where just over half the teams make the playoffs. Surely with such young talent to go along with the veteran talent one would think a team could sneak it's way in...even the Florida Panthers made it.
- CanUSA17

Try and remember the drought that the canucks had in the 80's.. was longer than the current leaf drought ... just sayin

What's funny is not making the playoffs for so many years with all those all-stars on the Leafs roster. Tell me if your team has so many great players that WILL not be traded for a top goalie why is it that Toronto has not made said playoffs in a sport where just over half the teams make the playoffs. Surely with such young talent to go along with the veteran talent one would think a team could sneak it's way in...even the Florida Panthers made it.
- CanUSA17

That is the frustrating part of trying to deal with Leaf fans .They don't see any flaws at all in their team . It is an argument you can not win.

sorry not even close to being fair both ways ... no offense ..
- LeafsfaninBC

It doesn't make sense for TO, considering their position, but it's pretty close to fair value.

Try and remember the drought that the canucks had in the 80's.. was longer than the current leaf drought ... just sayin
- LeafsfaninBC

So you are trying to convince us two wrongs do make a right?

Leo Komarov is a 4th line pest... what does he have to do with anything?

And Schenn had a tough year playing in a system that requires Dmen to play wide to the boards to transition play faster and his footspeed was exposed. Prior to that, he was playing 20+ a night. He's a core guy who had a bad year. It happens.
- Brian Huddle

You state that TO does not need small speedy players. He's a small speedy player (according to his scouting report). That's all you stated. TO signed this guy two or three days ago. He ain't getting much bigger than 5'-11" at 25 years of age.
So what you are saying is that Schenn can not adapt to different coaching styles. Still, doesn't sound like a core guy to me. Nothing personal...

It doesn't make sense for TO, considering their position, but it's pretty close to fair value.
- Fosco

Gardiner is as close as an untouchable as there is in a Leafs Uni ... sorry anything ends with his name attached to it ..

It doesn't make sense for TO, considering their position, but it's pretty close to fair value.
- Fosco

It has been said many times the Canucks go as Kevin Bieksa go. He is a true leader on this team .He does have flaws but when he is on his game he carries the team. But he is not good enough to play on TO

exactly .. how you doing huddle .. long time no speak hope all is well buddy
- LeafsfaninBC

Doing good man.

That is the frustrating part of trying to deal with Leaf fans .They don't see any flaws at all in their team . It is an argument you can not win.
- VANTEL

You're basing value of players (assets) based on the team they play for. That makes zero sense. Rick Nash is a valuable piece, and look at his situation. Look at JT in NYI. The value of the asset is not determined by the team they play for.

It doesn't make sense for TO, considering their position, but it's pretty close to fair value.
- Fosco

Pretty much. (The contract for Lu still makes it hard to get fair value for the player though)

Lu is a heck of a goalie, and no one should deny that. But things play into how much value Van can actually get back. And the fact he asked for a trade further diminishes value. It's hard to know.

I think Vancouver will get back some good pieces, but nothing to the extent of a 5th overall pick from a team.

So you are trying to convince us two wrongs do make a right?
- VANTEL

nope just saying you keep bringing up the playoff drought .. yet you guys suffer through one longer than this one .. so bring it up is really well petty ... would rather not make the playoffs for 10 years and be dominate for 10 than squeekin in for a few and missing for a few .. .the Nucks time is now .. in 2-3 years Sedins will not be the best in the league and then the Nucks will be in a bit of trouble ..

Especially the Toronto Sun. If the Leafs ever won the Cup, they'd complain that they didn't do it fast enough. Toronto could have Sidney Crosby and the Sun would say "he's no Evengeni Malkin."
- Brian Huddle

fair enough.

fair enough.
- bloatedmosquito

TO papers are quite bias .. either one way or the other .. no middle ground at all

You state that TO does not need small speedy players. He's a small speedy player (according to his scouting report). That's all you stated. TO signed this guy two or three days ago. He ain't getting much bigger than 5'-11" at 25 years of age.
So what you are saying is that Schenn can not adapt to different coaching styles. Still, doesn't sound like a core guy to me. Nothing personal...
- bloatedmosquito

What scouting reports are you reading then? Komarov is a Kaleta-like player for the fourth line. He plays big. Toronto DESPERATELY needs that. They're soft as butter up front.

Raymond is a guy who needs to play in Top 6 or he's relatively useless. up front Toronto's Top Six has MacArthur/Grabovski/Lupul/Kessel next year for sure. Small and speedy.

Raymond just isn't something necessary for the Leafs.

It has been said many times the Canucks go as Kevin Bieksa go. He is a true leader on this team .He does have flaws but when he is on his game he carries the team. But he is not good enough to play on TO
- VANTEL

I would love Bieksa on TO, I'm a big fan. And he'd likely settle in nicely with Phaneuf. The problem is his age as a diminishing asset. From where Toronto is, he doesn't make sense for them.

You have to look at things a bit more objectively.

Gardiner is as close as an untouchable as there is in a Leafs Uni ... sorry anything ends with his name attached to it ..
- LeafsfaninBC

All that means is that Gardiner has more value to the Leafs than he does on the trade market. Like I said, doesn't make sense for TO, but the value isn't far off.

All that means is that Gardiner has more value to the Leafs than he does on the trade market. Like I said, doesn't make sense for TO, but the value isn't far off.
- Fosco

Exactly.

There's a value an asset has to it's current team, it's "trade value" and it's value to an opposing team.

Things to remember for everyone involved.

Lu has a no trade clause. He will be asked for a list of teams, and that list may include 10 teams.

Therefore, you have automatically removed 20 teams from this discussion.

Secondly, of those 10 teams, how many ACTUALLY NEED a goalie? What if Lu wants to play for NYR? Pretty sure NY has no interest in Lu considering they have Lundqvist.
Let's pretend that eliminates 5 of the ten teams on the list.

Lu carries a massive contract which pays more than its cap for 6 years, before tailing off. That means that any team that takes him will have to have the money to pay more salary than the cap.

Say that eliminates 2 teams.

So, you're essentially left with 3 teams to deal with. These three teams will know who each other are, and the GMs involved in the discussion will have a pretty good idea what the others are offering. Most will not want to be tied down for 10 more years to a 36 year old goalie who may decline or injure himself at any moment. That alone will eliminate 1 or 2 teams.

you got 1 team left to deal with.

Your options in Van will be to resign Schneider (which may end up being around $4M-$5M,) and keep both goalies, which would be a huge hit to the cap, or you take what you get for Lu, simply to free up space to make a pitch for UFAs and other trades

What scouting reports are you reading then? Komarov is a Kaleta-like player for the fourth line. He plays big. Toronto DESPERATELY needs that. They're soft as butter up front.

Raymond is a guy who needs to play in Top 6 or he's relatively useless. up front Toronto's Top Six has MacArthur/Grabovski/Lupul/Kessel next year for sure. Small and speedy.

Raymond just isn't something necessary for the Leafs.
- Brian Huddle

Leo Komarov http://www.hockeysfuture....om/prospects/leo_komarov/

note the sentence under Talent Analysis "The small and speedy forward". But I'm no prospect expert so that might mean something totally different.

As for Raymond, you must not believe in advanced stats. Raymond's possession numbers were simply ridiculous. Raymond’s Corsi numbers weren’t just good last year, they were the best on the team. He continually drove play into the offensive end of the ice. It might be easiest to understand his impact last season by pointing out that he allowed the fewest even-strength shots against per 60 minutes of ice time than any other player on the Canucks.

TO certainly doesn't need any of those skills on thier bottom three lines. I guess not everybody loves Raymond. Oh well.

Leo Komarov http://www.hockeysfuture....om/prospects/leo_komarov/

note the sentence under Talent Analysis "The small and speedy forward". But I'm no prospect expert so that might mean something totally different.

As for Raymond, you must not believe in advanced stats. Raymond's possession numbers were simply ridiculous. Raymond’s Corsi numbers weren’t just good last year, they were the best on the team. He continually drove play into the offensive end of the ice. It might be easiest to understand his impact last season by pointing out that he allowed the fewest even-strength shots against per 60 minutes of ice time than any other player on the Canucks.

TO certainly doesn't need any of those skills on thier bottom three lines. I guess not everybody loves Raymond. Oh well.
- bloatedmosquito

I can't stand the use of adv. stats. But that's a discussion for another day.

As for the report-- it's a bit off. He's not big, but he's nasty and that's why Leafs signed him (one of their prospects they drafted).

What scouting reports are you reading then? Komarov is a Kaleta-like player for the fourth line. He plays big. Toronto DESPERATELY needs that. They're soft as butter up front.

Raymond is a guy who needs to play in Top 6 or he's relatively useless. up front Toronto's Top Six has MacArthur/Grabovski/Lupul/Kessel next year for sure. Small and speedy.

Raymond just isn't something necessary for the Leafs.



I would love Bieksa on TO, I'm a big fan. And he'd likely settle in nicely with Phaneuf. The problem is his age as a diminishing asset. From where Toronto is, he doesn't make sense for them.

You have to look at things a bit more objectively.
- Brian Huddle

First of all Brian , I do highly respect your opinion.

Every player in the League is a diminishing asset as far as age goes.I am not sure of any player whose age is staying the same or getting younger. He is 31 years old and has 4 more years at a very resonable cap hit.He has proven himself in the playoffs to be one of the best in the league when it comes down to the battles and productivity. After he is 35 the team can decide on a new contract if there still is a NHL in 4 years from now.

You put yourself in M Gillis's spot .You have a goalie with 6 years at 5.3 hit .He played in 56 games this year and was either your best or 2 nd best player on the best regular season team over the last two years.Would you trade for Armstrong and Schenn? Both played were up and down on a team that was in the bottom 5 this year. They do not have any real track value in fact. Armstrong was put on waivers and all 29 teams passed.

Is this a deal you take or do you wait for something better?

Things to remember for everyone involved.

Lu has a no trade clause. He will be asked for a list of teams, and that list may include 10 teams.

Therefore, you have automatically removed 20 teams from this discussion.

Secondly, of those 10 teams, how many ACTUALLY NEED a goalie? What if Lu wants to play for NYR? Pretty sure NY has no interest in Lu considering they have Lundqvist.
Let's pretend that eliminates 5 of the ten teams on the list.

Lu carries a massive contract which pays more than its cap for 6 years, before tailing off. That means that any team that takes him will have to have the money to pay more salary than the cap.

Say that eliminates 2 teams.

So, you're essentially left with 3 teams to deal with. These three teams will know who each other are, and the GMs involved in the discussion will have a pretty good idea what the others are offering. Most will not want to be tied down for 10 more years to a 36 year old goalie who may decline or injure himself at any moment. That alone will eliminate 1 or 2 teams.

you got 1 team left to deal with.

Your options in Van will be to resign Schneider (which may end up being around $4M-$5M,) and keep both goalies, which would be a huge hit to the cap, or you take what you get for Lu, simply to free up space to make a pitch for UFAs and other trades
- ILoveLamp

Luongo turned 33 in April.

Your whole elimination criteria is speculative.

Things to remember for everyone involved.

Lu has a no trade clause. He will be asked for a list of teams, and that list may include 10 teams.

Therefore, you have automatically removed 20 teams from this discussion.

Secondly, of those 10 teams, how many ACTUALLY NEED a goalie? What if Lu wants to play for NYR? Pretty sure NY has no interest in Lu considering they have Lundqvist.
Let's pretend that eliminates 5 of the ten teams on the list.

Lu carries a massive contract which pays more than its cap for 6 years, before tailing off. That means that any team that takes him will have to have the money to pay more salary than the cap.

Say that eliminates 2 teams.

So, you're essentially left with 3 teams to deal with. These three teams will know who each other are, and the GMs involved in the discussion will have a pretty good idea what the others are offering. Most will not want to be tied down for 10 more years to a 36 year old goalie who may decline or injure himself at any moment. That alone will eliminate 1 or 2 teams.

you got 1 team left to deal with.

Your options in Van will be to resign Schneider (which may end up being around $4M-$5M,) and keep both goalies, which would be a huge hit to the cap, or you take what you get for Lu, simply to free up space to make a pitch for UFAs and other trades
- ILoveLamp

The number of teams Lou will be willing to go to will be larger than the "actual list" that experts claim he will submit. Lou wants to be a starter somewhere—if he doesn't get that chance on Vancouver, or one of the teams on the "actual list," he will settle for somewhere else, just to get that shot.

I can't stand the use of adv. stats. But that's a discussion for another day.

As for the report-- it's a bit off. He's not big, but he's nasty and that's why Leafs signed him (one of their prospects they drafted).
- Brian Huddle

Kind of like your assessment of Raymond?
I'm just (frank)ing with you. Just trying to sell poop to an arse...

Try and remember the drought that the canucks had in the 80's.. was longer than the current leaf drought ... just sayin
- LeafsfaninBC

What does that have to do with anything? He said the CURRENT players on the Leafs roster can't seem to make the playoffs yet they are all untouchable with the exceptions being Armstrong Komy Lombardi and Connolly.

I can't stand the use of adv. stats. But that's a discussion for another day.

As for the report-- it's a bit off. He's not big, but he's nasty and that's why Leafs signed him (one of their prospects they drafted).
- Brian Huddle

You and me both. They have their purpose, but when somebody uses them to claim an ineffective player is an effective one, throw them out the door.

First of all Brian , I do highly respect your opinion.

Every player in the League is a diminishing asset .I am not sure of any player whose age is staying the same or getting younger. He is 31 years old and has 4 more years at a very resonable cap hit.He has proven himself in the playoffs to be one of the best in the league when it comes down to the battles and productivity. After he is 35 the team can decide on a new contract if there still is a NHL in 4 years from now.

You put yourself in M Gillis's spot .You have a goalie with 6 years at 5.3 hit .He played in 56 games this year and was either your best or 2 nd best player on the best regular season team over the last two years.Would you trade for Armstrong and Schenn? Both played were up and down on a team that was in the bottom 5 this year. They do not have any real track value in fact. Armstrong was put on waivers and all 29 teams passed.

Is this a deal you take or do you wait for something better?
- VANTEL

Diminishing asset in that Bieksa isn't going to get better, but will start to decline in play. Players like Gardiner, or Adam Henrique, etc. are assets on the upswing who will be getting better before they hit their "peak" of what they are as a player. Just so we're on the same page.

If I'm in Gillis' spot, I'm sitting on a goalie asking out, who controls where he can and cant go with a small market of places available to wheel and deal with. Essentially, Gillis will be stuck taking the best of a couple offers if it's true that Luongo has demanded out.

Would I like it? No. But you never do when a players asks for a trade out and controls his destiny with a big contract and NTC.

You and me both. They have their purpose, but when somebody uses them to claim an ineffective player is an effective one, throw them out the door.
- Fosco

Jesus man, Shhhhhhhhhh. We actually might have a buyer for Raymond and you’re (frank)ing the deal up. What side of the fence do you play on?