I'm staying out of the Carle debate
- mochoson

There is no more debates about Carle because I dont think he will be back.

Losing 4 straight isn't pathetic, or meek. It's courageous, and heroic.


- PLindbergh31

No, it's not pathetic or meek. It's simply getting beaten by a better team. The terms you use on a regular basis are not terms that this team deserves to be labeled with.

I question whether or not JVR will return next season. A forward is likely to be traded, especially if Jagr returns.

Chips that could be traded for a very good defenseman? One or in combination.

Voracek
Schenn
Couturier
Read
Simmonds
Draft picks.
- MJL

Dont you need some of those EL deals to even out the cap?

Voracek is the only player who will be high in cap space.

There is no more debates about Carle because I dont think he will be back.
- stveshdy

Good Riddance. The door on his way out will probably block his shot.

There is no more debates about Carle because I dont think he will be back.
- stveshdy

I doubt Carter will be back, and that debate still arrives with regularity.

Chips that could be traded for a very good defenseman? One or in combination.

Voracek
Schenn
Couturier
Read
Simmonds
Draft picks.
- MJL

*Just my view on what you listed*

Jake: Keep
Schenn: Keep
Couterier: Untouchable
Read: Untouchable
Simmonds: Keep
Draft picks: Keep the 1st

Now, notice I want to keep them all. However, I would entertain offers for the three I'd "like" to keep. Couterier should be kept for obvious reasons. Matt Read is untouchable on my list for his contract. If he can score 20 goals a year, he'd be the cheapest top-six forward in the entire league, or damn near close to it. I also think he can get better. He will never be a stud offensive player IMO, but he has proven that he can play a solid, all around game, and is definitely worth keeping around at his current price.

Honestly, if one of those players has to go with picks, it's Jake. At this point though, I'd rather trade JVR than Jake, for the sole reason that I think JVR gives us a bigger return.

Just some thoughts.

I question whether or not JVR will return next season. A forward is likely to be traded, especially if Jagr returns.
- LordStanley88

if homer keeps jagr over jvr i'm a monkey's uncle

Yea, I wouldn't move Voracek, Schenn, or Couts. The others I'd deal if it made the team better.

Dont you need some of those EL deals to even out the cap?

Voracek is the only player who will be high in cap space.
- stveshdy

Schenns EL cap hit is already greater then Jakes now, and Jakes on his first real contract. Ditto Simmonds.

if homer keeps jagr over jvr i'm a monkey's uncle
- Don'tForgetTocchet

They may use JVR to get a defenseman though. It wouldn't necessarily be keeping one guy over the other.

if homer keeps jagr over jvr i'm a monkey's uncle
- Don'tForgetTocchet

A space monkey's uncle?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Good Riddens. The door on his way out will probably block his shot.
- PLindbergh31

You mean the shot that has him currently 2nd in the NHL among defenseman in goals. And 3rd overall among all defenseman in points in the playoffs?

I question whether or not JVR will return next season. A forward is likely to be traded, especially if Jagr returns.
- LordStanley88

I'm not sure Jagr has speed anymore to keep up in the playoffs. He looked really slow in this playoffs. I love all the intangibles he brought to this team this year, but there are a lot of younger forwards currently on the team that could easily eat up his minutes.

*Just my view on what you listed*

Jake: Keep
Schenn: Keep
Couterier: Untouchable
Read: Untouchable
Simmonds: Keep
Draft picks: Keep the 1st

Now, notice I want to keep them all. However, I would entertain offers for the three I'd "like" to keep. Couterier should be kept for obvious reasons. Matt Read is untouchable on my list for his contract. If he can score 20 goals a year, he'd be the cheapest top-six forward in the entire league, or damn near close to it. I also think he can get better. He will never be a stud offensive player IMO, but he has proven that he can play a solid, all around game, and is definitely worth keeping around at his current price.

Honestly, if one of those players has to go with picks, it's Jake. At this point though, I'd rather trade JVR than Jake, for the sole reason that I think JVR gives us a bigger return.

Just some thoughts.
- mochoson

Solid post. I agree with you 100%

*Just my view on what you listed*

Jake: Keep
Schenn: Keep
Couterier: Untouchable
Read: Untouchable
Simmonds: Keep
Draft picks: Keep the 1st

Now, notice I want to keep them all. However, I would entertain offers for the three I'd "like" to keep. Couterier should be kept for obvious reasons. Matt Read is untouchable on my list for his contract. If he can score 20 goals a year, he'd be the cheapest top-six forward in the entire league, or damn near close to it. I also think he can get better. He will never be a stud offensive player IMO, but he has proven that he can play a solid, all around game, and is definitely worth keeping around at his current price.

Honestly, if one of those players has to go with picks, it's Jake. At this point though, I'd rather trade JVR than Jake, for the sole reason that I think JVR gives us a bigger return.

Just some thoughts.
- mochoson

I wasn't offering it as players I would or wouldn't trade. Just as assets that could be moved to add a defenseman.

You mean the shot that has him currently 2nd in the NHL among defenseman in goals. And 3rd overall among all defenseman in points in the playoffs?
- MJL

And a -11 in his last 22 playoff games, Thanks for playing though.

Yea, I wouldn't move Voracek, Schenn, or Couts. The others I'd deal if it made the team better.
- LordStanley88

I would add Read to this list over Voracek because of his contract and he is a better penalty killer.

And a -11 in his last 22 playoff games, Thanks for playing though.
- PLindbergh31

I love the thanks for playing line.

Remember your statement that stats don't tell the whole story. You conveniently forget that, depending on if you like the player or not. We had this discussion last playoff. I'll be glad to look at each goal in the last 22 playoff games and discuss whether Carle is at fault for the goal or not. I look at every player with objectivity and without bias. And I go deeper then just looking blindly at stats. So whenever your ready to do so, let me know. And we'll deal in the facts, instead of just the BS.

I love the thanks for playing line. Remember your statement that stats don't tell the whole story. You conveniently forget that, depending on if you like the player or not. We had this discussion last playoff. I'll be glad to look at each goal in the last 22 playoff games and discuss whether Carle is at fault for the goal or not. I look at every player with objectivity and without bias. And I go deeper then just looking blindly at stats. So whenever your ready to do so, let me know. And we'll deal in the facts, instead of just the BS.
- MJL

We can discuss it, when you you take the +/- statistics from every regular season game which you always cite that Carle is on of the top players in the NHL in + games. Account for every one of his +'s and what he did that lead to the goal, and I will discuss the playoff statistics.

I wasn't offering it as players I would or wouldn't trade. Just as assets that could be moved to add a defenseman.
- MJL

Oh, I understand. You listed them as assets, I just offered my opinion on what assets should be kept and which I think would be best to move should we move any of the aforementioned players. Your more then welcome to offer a similar opinion.

I think this team needs needs a more offensively gifted defensemen, as well as a prototypical "3rd liner".

By a more offensively gifted dman, I mean Dennis Wideman or a similar player.

By a protypical "3rd liner", I mean Travis Moen, or a similar player. Basically, a bigger version of Talbot.

Why is JVR's future production linked to Jeff Carter's past?
- MJL

Well, Carter is further along than JVR in his career, and the topic was whether JVR can grow into a player like Carter. So, Carter's past is something JVR future could be like. Thus, quite relevant.

Many a player has struggled to put up points in the playoffs, before breaking out
- MJL

And many a player has remained stuck as regular season wonders without ever breaking out or never quite matching those numbers. Danny B is sort of the opposite.

I thought we were discussing JVR's potential. I didn't realize we were going to ignore the meaningless regular Season and deal in playoff numbers. That bodes well for JVR then. Last playoff Series he played in when he was healthy was when? And what were his numbers?
- MJL

Last playoff series before this one? He had a great game 1 and 2, esp 2, which he took over. Did he play in games 3 and 4? Yeah he did, but I did not notice. So thats his claim to fame so far. Those 7 g in 11 games last playoffs. I am ok with that for now, but I am also a little worried.

Not interested in discussing the differences between you and I.
- MJL

Yeah, good idea. Sounds boring.

We can discuss it, when you you take the +/- statistics from every regular season game which you always cite that Carle is on of the top players in the NHL in + games. Account for every one of his +'s and what he did that lead to the goal, and I will discuss the playoff statistics.
- PLindbergh31

No problem, where do you want to start? I do it already. After every game, I review the goals for and against. Been doing it for years. What game do you want to start with?

We can even make a separate thread to spare the others.

You mean the shot that has him currently 2nd in the NHL among defenseman in goals. And 3rd overall among all defenseman in points in the playoffs?
- MJL

Uhh...2nd in the playoffs for goals isn't really that big of an accomplishment considering he's scored 2 this playoffs, I believe?

That being said...I think you're wrong?

......unless you mean career playoff points??

Well, Carter is further along than JVR in his career, and the topic was whether JVR can grow into a player like Carter. So, Carter's past is something JVR future could be like. Thus, quite relevant.


- PT21

Not really. As you couldn't possibly insure that both players would have the same opportunities. Same icetime, same amount of games. Not to mention the variables of different opponents. Injuries, etc. What you can do is look at each players skill level. What they can and can't do on the ice. Which is how I compared JVR to Carter. And their potential for the future.

And many a player has remained stuck as regular season wonders without ever breaking out or never quite matching those numbers. Danny B is sort of the opposite.


- PT21

Absolutely. Doesn't mean JVR will.

Last playoff series before this one? He had a great game 1 and 2, esp 2, which he took over. Did he play in games 3 and 4? Yeah he did, but I did not notice. So thats his claim to fame so far. Those 7 g in 11 games last playoffs. I am ok with that for now, but I am also a little worried.


- PT21

It's a clear indicator of what JVR is capable of when healthy. I understand the worry.