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Jake Gardiner scored his 4th career goal in his 54th career game. It took Erik Karlsson 61 games to score HIS 4th. You just never know
- burn

Sometimes I just get plain embarrassed by some of my Leaf colleagues. Karlsson and Gardiner are the same age (Karlsson is 34 days older). So, it is kind of flaky when you make a statement with an implicit suggestion that somehow Gardiner is following a similar and even an accelerated development pathway to the kid.

More important, this is not fair to Gardiner. He is not Karlsson. Leaf fans raise expectations on their own than savage them when they fail to accomplish the unrealistic demands of their own false hope spin.

Sometimes I just get plain embarrassed by some of my Leaf colleagues. Karlsson and Gardiner are the same age (Karlsson is 34 days older). So, it is kind of flaky when you make a statement with an implicit suggestion that somehow Gardiner is following a similar and even an accelerated development pathway to the kid.

More important, this is not fair to Gardiner. He is not Karlsson. Leaf fans raise expectations on their own than savage them when they fail to accomplish the unrealistic demands of their own false hope spin.
- spatso

And yet you compared KArlsson favorable to Orr.

Do not call yourself a Leaf fan again. We don't want you.

Sometimes I just get plain embarrassed by some of my Leaf colleagues. Karlsson and Gardiner are the same age (Karlsson is 34 days older). So, it is kind of flaky when you make a statement with an implicit suggestion that somehow Gardiner is following a similar and even an accelerated development pathway to the kid.

More important, this is not fair to Gardiner. He is not Karlsson. Leaf fans raise expectations on their own than savage them when they fail to accomplish the unrealistic demands of their own false hope spin.
- spatso

Just like the voters are embarrassed!!! Still skirting that one!!

actually it was not high scoring..the league just had no parity then..it became high scoring when the Oilers took to the ice for good..u cant be serious comparing this guy to Bobby Orr?????
- French-Connection

Statistics are ruthless matters. It is entirely appropriate to include Orr's statistics in a table with other high performing Dmen as we did in a table earlier on in this thread. Statistically the kid does pretty well in comparison with the offensive greats of earlier years. There once was a time when people became enraged when others compared Gretsky to the Rocket. Orr had great numbers over a short career. But, he was criticized in the beginning because he did not play solid defensive hockey in the traditional way.

Orr was different because he was a constant offensive threat. He was the guy on the ice who would turn the play and set up or score the goal that made the difference in terms of winning the game. Make no mistake when the kid is on the ice he makes a difference. The Senators are having a great year. The kid has been a difference maker. The Senators have great young talent in their system. In order to be put in the same class as Orr, Coffey and more recently Lidstrom you need to be a generational talent.

Does a 20 point lead over all other Dman at the 3/4 point of your third season qualify you as a generational talent? Obviously not. But it is a remarkable start.

And yet you compared KArlsson favorable to Orr.

Do not call yourself a Leaf fan again. We don't want you.
- burn

I compared Karllson to Orr statistically based on their first three years. At the same time I clearly stated that Karllson was not Orr. In fact, my observations were simply a continuation of the discussion on the Senators broadcast involving Dean Brown and Denis Potvin. They were the ones who first raised the issue of the similarity of the statistical profiles. They also discussed the ability of the kid to dominate the game.

I compared Karllson to Orr statistically based on their first three years. At the same time I clearly stated that Karllson was not Orr. In fact, my observations were simply a continuation of the discussion on the Senators broadcast involving Dean Brown and Denis Potvin. They were the ones who first raised the issue of the similarity of the statistical profiles. They also discussed the ability of the kid to dominate the game.
- spatso

The two biggest homers in the world? OK. Right up there with Dopps posting Melnyk's quotes.

EDIT: and the comparison isn't even that good, as everyone has pointed out. He doesn't even compare that well with contemporaries Like Green.

And yet you compared KArlsson favorable to Orr.

Do not call yourself a Leaf fan again. We don't want you.
- burn

The fact that I don't think that Gardiner is as good as Karllson does not make me less of a Leaf fan. I think, it just makes me realistic.

Just like the voters are embarrassed!!! Still skirting that one!!
- burn

I have no idea what this means? What voters?

The fact that I don't think that Gardiner is as good as Karllson does not make me less of a Leaf fan. I think, it just makes me realistic.
- spatso

I'm not talking about just that post. We don't want someone who "Claims" to be a Leafs fan, but really is a Sens fan. we don't need you, we don't want you. Just be who you are already.

And I never said that I thought GArdiner was as good as KArlsson.... I posted the tweet as a joke.

Still can't spell his name right?

I have no idea what this means? What voters?
- spatso

The Norris voters you claimed were embarrassed by their votes.

The two biggest homers in the world? OK. Right up there with Dopps posting Melnyk's quotes.

EDIT: and the comparison isn't even that good, as everyone has pointed out. He doesn't even compare that well with contemporaries Like Green.
- burn

Now your just blowing smoke. Go back and check out the table near the beginning of the thread. You should not make compatiive statements without first reviewing the the data.

The Norris voters you claimed were embarrassed by their votes.
- burn

I guess you missed the "day after" discussion when people talked about the fact that the top defensive award was given to a player with a plus/minus rating of minus two. I, like many commentators, believe Lidstrom got the award on his history rather than on his season. I think the vote may have been further skewed because many thought Lidstrom was about to retire.

My comment on the embarrassed voters was about the awkwardness that followed. The voters knew it was a mistake. My point in this thread is that they will not allow it to happen again.

I'm not talking about just that post. We don't want someone who "Claims" to be a Leafs fan, but really is a Sens fan. we don't need you, we don't want you. Just be who you are already.

And I never said that I thought GArdiner was as good as KArlsson.... I posted the tweet as a joke.

Still can't spell his name right?
- burn

If you intended it as a joke, I apologize. I do tend to overreact to Leaf fans who place unrealistic expectations on the new kids coming in. Often these are the same fans who are the first to crucify them when they falter. I cautioned against the false hype when it was pumped up for Schenn, Kadri and Reimer. Kids like Colborne, Aulie, Franson and Gardiner are now getting the weight of the false hope put on their shoulders.

Burke's first round drafting record as leaf gm have been much worse the Murray's.

2008 5th overall Luke Schenn, Murray selection, ten picks later at 15th overall Eric Karlsson.

2009 7th overall - AHLer Nazim Kadri, Murrays selection at 9th over all Full Time NHLer Jared Cowen

2010 the leafs draft went to the Bruins who selected 2nd overall Tyler Seguin, Ottawa traded his pick to St Louis for Future Multiple Norris and Hart trophy winner David Rundblad

2011, Murray selects 6th overall Mika Zibanejad and then 21st overall Stefan Noesen, before Burkes selects 22nd overall Tyler Biggs and then at 24th overall Murray selects Matt Puempel


You need to realize how insidious Burke's failures in the first round at the entry draft have been since becoming leafs GM.
- Doppleganger

For accuracy, Burke was not around when Schenn was drafted.

The 2008 NHL Entry Draft was the 46th NHL Entry Draft. It was hosted by the Ottawa Senators at Scotiabank Place in the city of Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, on June 20–21, 2008

On November 29, 2008, Burke was introduced as the President and General Manager of the Toronto Maple Leafs

The rest of Burkes Draft picks as Leafs GM we can not say if they were good or bad. Kadri is an unknown, and being in the AHL means nothing at this point, he has not been given a fulltime opportunity to play for the leafs, they have to many players keeping him off the Roster (Lombardi, Connolly, Army etc) who need to be gone before. Example Detroit drafted Brendan Smith in 2007 and he is still not with the Wings and played 3 games in the NHL, but from what I hear will be a decent player.

You can only really Judge Burke on his draft picks with other teams, until the leafs picks are 3-5 years in minimum.

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Jake Gardiner scored his 4th career goal in his 54th career game. It took Erik Karlsson 61 games to score HIS 4th. You just never know
- burn

did you make the popcorn before or after this post?

did you make the popcorn before or after this post?
- nightmare3020

in fairness, it was a Sens poster on page 5 of this thread that claimed it is in the number of games played, not the age, that you measure a rookie. By HIS measure, Gardiner is ahead of Karlsson in his development curve.

in fairness, it was a Sens poster on page 5 of this thread that claimed it is in the number of games played, not the age, that you measure a rookie. By HIS measure, Gardiner is ahead of Karlsson in his development curve.
- prock

in fairness, it was a Sens poster on page 5 of this thread that claimed it is in the number of games played, not the age, that you measure a rookie. By HIS measure, Gardiner is ahead of Karlsson in his development curve.
- prock

It cannot be as simple as one or the other. Some guys develop better if held back. Some benefit from a more aggressive development. Some players have been destroyed by too aggressive development. My objection to the Karllson/Gardiner comparison is that it unfairly raises expectations for Gardiner. Too many good talents have been destroyed by the false hype machine.

It cannot be as simple as one or the other. Some guys develop better if held back. Some benefit from a more aggressive development. Some players have been destroyed by too aggressive development. My objection to the Karllson/Gardiner comparison is that it unfairly raises expectations for Gardiner. Too many good talents have been destroyed by the false hype machine.
- spatso

kind of likethe ridiculous false hope created by morons comparing young dmen to bobby Orr?

it wasn't our statement. Take it up with the idiot that said it.

kind of likethe ridiculous false hope created by morons comparing young dmen to bobby Orr?

it wasn't our statement. Take it up with the idiot that said it.
- prock

I take it you would leave Orr out of a table comparing prodigious talents in the first three years of their career entry levels? Would you include Coffey or Lidstrom? Are you upset because the kid matches up as well as he does?

I take it you would leave Orr out of a table comparing prodigious talents in the first three years of their career entry levels? Would you include Coffey or Lidstrom? Are you upset because the kid matches up as well as he does?
- spatso

what is your point.
So does Brian Leetch 80games 16g 72a 88p, nobody is claiming hes on Orr's level

I take it you would leave Orr out of a table comparing prodigious talents in the first three years of their career entry levels? Would you include Coffey or Lidstrom? Are you upset because the kid matches up as well as he does?
- spatso

You can include whoever you like. Just be aware that you look like a fool doing so. Just like we can include more recent, closer comparisons like Mike Green, and hopefully that won't upset you.

9 hours ago
@tsn_wally: From Elias: Karlsson has 12 points over his last 5 games, the most for a defenseman since Tomas Kaberle had 12 over 5 games in Oct/Nov 09.

9 hours ago
@tsn_wally: Fr Elias: Karlsson has set another team record with his 16th multiple-point game this season, Norm Maciver had 15 in '92-93.


Norm Maciver??? I thought we were comparing him to Orr?
- burn

Team record brainiac, Orr never played for the Sens

I said years, you tried to correct me for that. Its correct.

Are you ready?
- prock

you were quite clearly trying to embellish your claim by using "years" instead of 137 games in the NHL (with Phoenix) to somehow prove he has never been good, and never will be.

Your running out of Senators to run down..............why are you so obsessed with the Senators?? Is it because the leafs are following their familiar routine of starting the season well and rebooting stanley cup dreams in the minds of blue kool aid drinkers, then at the end of the season, they falter and flounder down into the ninth spot in the Conference.

What's it now, 8 losses in the the last nine games???

I suspect this is why you spend so much of your time running down Senator players, because in your warped mind this may somehow help the leafs in some small way.

The two biggest homers in the world? OK. Right up there with Dopps posting Melnyk's quotes.

EDIT: and the comparison isn't even that good, as everyone has pointed out. He doesn't even compare that well with contemporaries Like Green.
- burn

How do you rate this comparison?

Erik Karlsson 13G 47A 60PTS +15
Dion Phaneuf 9 G 25A 34PTS -5