As with the Hart trophy, the Norris trophy "candidates" are the top three vote recipients at the end of the season, when the Professional Hockey Writers' Association vote on the players in the various categories, at the end of the season.

If Karlsson gets enough votes to be in the top three, then he's a candidate. But Professional Hockey Writers in most American markets, and also in the Western Conference, may favour players the know better, and see more often than Karlsson.
- Doppleganger

They will likely also favour players that can play D.

You're assuming Murray knows better than Maloney, which isn't very smart either, given Murray's incredibly long history of ineptitude.
- prock

Good for maloney,how grand are the yotes .Iam not going to be dragged into one of your circular arguements that go nowhere.I will agree to disagree i like KT and think he will be a very good player for the sens for a long time to come,you dont got it

But Murray is inept.
- prock

To the tune of being two points behind the bruins for the division in a rebuild year

Good review. I think Karllson has grown his game so fast over the last three years it is hard to get a handle on his developmental curve. I think he gets nominated but Weber wins the Norris. But, if he continues his current pace over the last 8 weeks, who knows?
- spatso

The Karlsson haters love to point out his higher than average turnovers, without considering the fact that the players on all teams that handle the puck the most, and play the highest TOI on your team..............SURPRISE SURPRISE they almost always have higher than average turnovers

Karlsson leads his team in TOI by about one minute and fifteen seconds over the second most TOI player.

I'm told younger does not mean better. I look at your rookies that are not very young for rookies, and as I've been told by Sens fans, these are not high end rookies, and will probably not go anywhere.
- prock

The measure of a NHL rookie, is NOT in age, but in number of games played in the NHL.

The measure of a NHL rookie, is NOT in age, but in number of games played in the NHL.
- Doppleganger

Yep, age has nothing to do with anything.

The Karlsson haters love to point out his higher than average turnovers, without considering the fact that the players on all teams that handle the puck the most, and play the highest TOI on your team..............SURPRISE SURPRISE they almost always have higher than average turnovers

Karlsson leads his team in TOI by about one minute and fifteen seconds over the second most TOI player.
- Doppleganger

I actually like to point out that other teams score at incredibly high rates while he is on the ice. Moreso than any other Sens Dman (or player, for that matter). Why is that?

But Murray is inept.
- prock

Burke's first round drafting record as leaf gm have been much worse the Murray's.

2008 5th overall Luke Schenn, Murray selection, ten picks later at 15th overall Eric Karlsson.

2009 7th overall - AHLer Nazim Kadri, Murrays selection at 9th over all Full Time NHLer Jared Cowen

2010 the leafs draft went to the Bruins who selected 2nd overall Tyler Seguin, Ottawa traded his pick to St Louis for Future Multiple Norris and Hart trophy winner David Rundblad

2011, Murray selects 6th overall Mika Zibanejad and then 21st overall Stefan Noesen, before Burkes selects 22nd overall Tyler Biggs and then at 24th overall Murray selects Matt Puempel


You need to realize how insidious Burke's failures in the first round at the entry draft have been since becoming leafs GM.

The Karlsson haters love to point out his higher than average turnovers, without considering the fact that the players on all teams that handle the puck the most, and play the highest TOI on your team..............SURPRISE SURPRISE they almost always have higher than average turnovers

Karlsson leads his team in TOI by about one minute and fifteen seconds over the second most TOI player.
- Doppleganger

You're ridiculous. What specifically from my post about Karlsson indicated that I'm a Karlsson hater? Or even that I was slagging his play?

I was categorizing him as a defender who succeeds by outscoring, and highlighted some of the pros and cons of that style of play. Then, I stated my preference for a different type of defender, and opined that those types would have a better chance at winning the Norris.

Burke's first round drafting record as leaf gm have been much worse the Murray's.

2008 5th overall Luke Schenn, Murray selection, ten picks later at 15th overall Eric Karlsson.

2009 7th overall - AHLer Nazim Kadri, Murrays selection at 9th over all Full Time NHLer Jared Cowen

2010 the leafs draft went to the Bruins who selected 2nd overall Tyler Seguin, Ottawa traded his pick to St Louis for Future Multiple Norris and Hart trophy winner David Rundblad

2011, Murray selects 6th overall Mika Zibanejad and then 21st overall Stefan Noesen, before Burkes selects 22nd overall Tyler Biggs and then at 24th overall Murray selects Matt Puempel


You need to realize how insidious Burke's failures in the first round at the entry draft have been since becoming leafs GM.
- Doppleganger

Too be fair he hasnt had a lot of pratice at it during his time as gm in toronto his retarded kessel trade has assured him of that

What you're seeing now is exactly what he had been showing Phoenix for years.
- prock

He played 137 games for the Coyotes. That's hardly translates to "years".

Never mind that you totally disregard his defensive play without the puck, and the fact that since his acquisition the Senators have risen in the standings leaving the leafs well behind them now.

You don't watch the Senators play on a regular basis,if at all, but those of us who do know that although he's not the only reason, the Senators are a better balanced team in all aspects than they were with the turnover machine that Rundblad was, once he finally played on North American sized ice, against NHLer.

If you are so in love with Rundblad, what aren't you leading the charge to get the mighty Brian Burke to trade for him and have him lead the leafs to their first Finals in 45 years?

I actually like to point out that other teams score at incredibly high rates while he is on the ice. Moreso than any other Sens Dman (or player, for that matter). Why is that?
- prock

link???

You're ridiculous. What specifically from my post about Karlsson indicated that I'm a Karlsson hater? Or even that I was slagging his play?

I was categorizing him as a defender who succeeds by outscoring, and highlighted some of the pros and cons of that style of play. Then, I stated my preference for a different type of defender, and opined that those types would have a better chance at winning the Norris.
- Morris

I was quoting Spatso (not you) and was adding to his assessment of your post. He was commending you for a fair review on Karlsson. When I was referring to "Karlsson haters" it was a reference to the trollonto posters who has made it thier mission to drap him down. Anyone who read you post knows that you do not even come close to being in that ballpark. If you assumed I meant you, you should know that I did not, and if I did, I would have quoted you and asked you to explain.

So I guess it's sorry for not being as clear as I could have been.

He played 137 games for the Coyotes. That's hardly translates to "years".

Never mind that you totally disregard his defensive play without the puck, and the fact that since his acquisition the Senators have risen in the standings leaving the leafs well behind them now.

You don't watch the Senators play on a regular basis,if at all, but those of us who do know that although he's not the only reason, the Senators are a better balanced team in all aspects than they were with the turnover machine that Rundblad was, once he finally played on North American sized ice, against NHLer.

If you are so in love with Rundblad, what aren't you leading the charge to get the mighty Brian Burke to trade for him and have him lead the leafs to their first Finals in 45 years?
- Doppleganger

Kt hasnt played a full season yet,but he is a bust EK is crappy defender,BM is a moron Same old same old .In fact i love the fact Prock,has said all of these things.Because while his track record for predictings things right is poor, he absolutely excells at getting things wrong

You're ridiculous. What specifically from my post about Karlsson indicated that I'm a Karlsson hater? Or even that I was slagging his play?

I was categorizing him as a defender who succeeds by outscoring, and highlighted some of the pros and cons of that style of play. Then, I stated my preference for a different type of defender, and opined that those types would have a better chance at winning the Norris.
- Morris

That is a fair and accurate response. The kid runs and guns with the best of them. As he gets older and more experienced he will learn to pick his spots. It will be less flashy but even more effective than he already is.

Too be fair he hasnt had a lot of pratice at it during his time as gm in toronto his retarded kessel trade has assured him of that
- top shelf 15

Now we are at the root of the problem.

As per the "more time handling the puck and more TOI = more chance for giveaways" notion, you're probably right dopple. generally. But Karlsson still plays a game that is bound to be high giveaway, high-takeaway, and his high giveaways don't have everything to do with TOI and time handling the puck.

Karlsson has played 108 more minutes than Lidstrom, for example (7% more ice time) but he also had 172% more giveaways. Can this discrepancy be accurately explained away by the notion that Karlsson handles the puck more? In my opinion no.

It can be explained, however. Karlsson also has 116% more takeaways than Lidstrom. This points at Karlsson's run-and-gun style, predicated on rushes and counter rushes, as the reason for a higher giveaway total. In short, I think it's more accurate to say as I've been saying it all along: He's a defenseman who succeeds by outscoring, and high giveaway and takeaway totals are going to come with that.

EDIT: After seeing your reply, this is somewhat redundant. It is interesting though, if only to show that stats are sometimes better for categorizing type of player than profiency of player.

That is a fair and accurate response. The kid runs and guns with the best of them. As he gets older and more experienced he will learn to pick his spots. It will be less flashy but even more effective than he already is.
- spatso

This and as the tallent surrounding him matures upfront and on the backend,the desparate high risk plays to generate some much needed offence will disapate

I was quoting Spatso (not you) and was adding to his assessment of your post. He was commending you for a fair review on Karlsson. When I was referring to "Karlsson haters" it was a reference to the trollonto posters who has made it thier mission to drap him down. Anyone who read you post knows that you do not even come close to being in that ballpark. If you assumed I meant you, you should know that I did not, and if I did, I would have quoted you and asked you to explain.

So I guess it's sorry for not being as clear as I could have been.
- Doppleganger

I understood it that way.

I was quoting Spatso (not you) and was adding to his assessment of your post. He was commending you for a fair review on Karlsson. When I was referring to "Karlsson haters" it was a reference to the trollonto posters who has made it thier mission to drap him down. Anyone who read you post knows that you do not even come close to being in that ballpark. If you assumed I meant you, you should know that I did not, and if I did, I would have quoted you and asked you to explain.

So I guess it's sorry for not being as clear as I could have been.
- Doppleganger

No prob, I guess I'm just on the defensive cause everyone seems to come into these threads guns blazing.

I wonder if there's an alternate reality out there somewhere where no one slags Kadri, Karlsson, Schenn, Rundblad, Turris, Hodgson, Gagner and hopes the best for each other's prospects

Now we are at the root of the problem.
- spatso

I have made my point on this clear ,Toronto was in no position to make any trades involving high picks and young prospects back then,in fact he still isnt .Instead of looking at a carter or a nash ,he should be looking to trade some found gold in lupal,phaneuf macather etc.for some much needed high end youth.He has been very lucky in his deals so far but they still cant make up for the dreaded kessel deal.Now he has to look at moving a decent young center because of cap concerns{grabo}.

At this rate he will looking to rebuild this thing again in two years time Most rebuiling teams are no where near the cap but only in toronto they are willing surrender good young assets for older more expensive ones

As per the "more time handling the puck and more TOI = more chance for giveaways" notion, you're probably right dopple. generally. But Karlsson still plays a game that is bound to be high giveaway, high-takeaway, and his high giveaways don't have everything to do with TOI and time handling the puck.

Karlsson has played 108 more minutes than Lidstrom, for example (7% more ice time) but he also had 172% more giveaways. Can this discrepancy be accurately explained away by the notion that Karlsson handles the puck more? In my opinion no.

It can be explained, however. Karlsson also has 116% more takeaways than Lidstrom. This points at Karlsson's run-and-gun style, predicated on rushes and counter rushes, as the reason for a higher giveaway total. In short, I think it's more accurate to say as I've been saying it all along: He's a defenseman who succeeds by outscoring, and high giveaway and takeaway totals are going to come with that.

EDIT: After seeing your reply, this is somewhat redundant. It is interesting though, if only to show that stats are sometimes better for categorizing type of player than profiency of player.
- Morris

Really important to remember that players like Gretsky and Crosby have led the league in giveaways on a regular basis. Giveaways is the direct result of puck possession. Players who hold the puck and set up plays will always lead the league in giveaways. Players who do not posses the puck can't give it away.

Really important to remember that players like Gretsky and Crosby have led the league in giveaways on a regular basis. Giveaways is the direct result of puck possession. Players who hold the puck and set up plays will always lead the league in giveaways. Players who do not posses the puck can't give it away.
- spatso

But is this is the only flaw in a players game, and some people are looking for any little thing to, in their mind, persuade us that this player is NFG, then they'll grasp onto it for dear life.

If your GM selected Luke Schenn 5th overall, and passed on Tyler Myers and Erik Karlsson to do so, then you'd be pissed off, and would bash these other two d men, to try and feel better about selecting Schenn.

I'm not saying Schenn is a bad player, he'd probably make the top four on practically all other teams, but knowing then what we're seeing now, perhaps the leafs would be better off with another player. But it still hurts when the team your obsessed about, is playing better than your own, and you expected your team to be "miles and miles better" in every aspect.

Senator fans know this all to well. Our GM at the time bought into all the Hype around a certain player, and could have selected Chris Pronger instead.

But is this is the only flaw in a players game, and some people are looking for any little thing to, in their mind, persuade us that this player is NFG, then they'll grasp onto it for dear life.

If your GM selected Luke Schenn 5th overall, and passed on Tyler Myers and Erik Karlsson to do so, then you'd be pissed off, and would bash these other two d men, to try and feel better about selecting Schenn.

I'm not saying Schenn is a bad player, he'd probably make the top four on practically all other teams, but knowing then what we're seeing now, perhaps the leafs would be better off with another player. But it still hurts when the team your obsessed about, is playing better than your own, and you expected your team to be "miles and miles better" in every aspect.

Senator fans know this all to well. Our GM at the time bought into all the Hype around a certain player, and could have selected Chris Pronger instead.
- Doppleganger

You have to remember we have not seen the Leafs in a playoff game for 7 years. Leaf fans are stressed and they lash out when they feel supporters of other teams take joy in exposing their vulnerability and failings. Most of it is pretty understandable, but that does not make the behavior ant more pretty.

Kt hasnt played a full season yet,but he is a bust EK is crappy defender,BM is a moron Same old same old .In fact i love the fact Prock,has said all of these things.Because while his track record for predictings things right is poor, he absolutely excells at getting things wrong
- top shelf 15

Call me crazy, but he's played almost 170 games in the NHL, over 80 in the AHL.

And sucked in most of em.