Karlsson succeeds defensively by outscoring. He's excellent at outscoring, but he's the top TOI getter for a team that allows the 5th worst goals against, he plays the most PP time and the 6th/7th most PK time among sens defensemen. He's got a high amount of both giveaways and takeaways. He's got a good ratio of team GF to team GA, but the 19th most team GA in the league. Among that bottom 30, he gives up the 3rd highest percentage of goals even strength. His team GA is actually better than it was in the beginning of the year (against the pack), but it is a detraction. Trophy consideration in my estimation is a whole year deal.

None of this indicates he's a bad player, or an unremarkable player (he is remarkable), but it certainly indicates a player who succeeds MOSTLY by outscoring. and he's a great outscorer who can make some average, but certainly unspectacular defensive plays. And of course he's only at the beginning of his career and progress.

For my tastes, a defenseman like Weber:
10 less team GF, 13 less team GA, 2 minutes more PK per game, half a minute less PP, better giveaway-takeaway ratio
Or Lidstrom:
18 less team GF, 16 less team GA, more PK, less PP, better giveaway-takeaway ratio

is more Norris-worthy.

But to the kids testament, he seems to be in on the Norris question.
- Morris

As far as I'm concerned, being poor defensively, for the trophy as the best Dman in the league, is a show stopper.

Karlsson succeeds defensively by outscoring. He's excellent at outscoring, but he's the top TOI getter for a team that allows the 5th worst goals against, he plays the most PP time and the 6th/7th most PK time among sens defensemen. He's got a high amount of both giveaways and takeaways. He's got a good ratio of team GF to team GA, but the 19th most team GA in the league. Among that bottom 30, he gives up the 3rd highest percentage of goals even strength. His team GA is actually better than it was in the beginning of the year (against the pack), but it is a detraction. Trophy consideration in my estimation is a whole year deal.

None of this indicates he's a bad player, or an unremarkable player (he is remarkable), but it certainly indicates a player who succeeds MOSTLY by outscoring. and he's a great outscorer who can make some average, but certainly unspectacular defensive plays. And of course he's only at the beginning of his career and progress.

For my tastes, a defenseman like Weber:
10 less team GF, 13 less team GA, 2 minutes more PK per game, half a minute less PP, better giveaway-takeaway ratio
Or Lidstrom:
18 less team GF, 16 less team GA, more PK, less PP, better giveaway-takeaway ratio

is more Norris-worthy.

But to the kids testament, he seems to be in on the Norris question.
- Morris

Good review. I think Karllson has grown his game so fast over the last three years it is hard to get a handle on his developmental curve. I think he gets nominated but Weber wins the Norris. But, if he continues his current pace over the last 8 weeks, who knows?

I well understand the point you are making. If you remember I predicted at the beginning of the season that there would be rage in Leaf nation if the Senators rebuilt quickly and passed the Leafs in performance. Obviously, the change has come even sooner than even I predicted. A large part of this is the apparent failure of the Leafs to do a proper rebuild through the draft. I am sorry they are so upset. But I have made my position well known on the matter. Senator fans should take the rage of Leaf fans around Karllson, Spezza and their team success as a complement. On the other hand, Leaf fans need to know this is about failing. I will repeat one more time that the author of this failing is Brian Blowhard.
- spatso

There is so much wrong with this it is absolutely hilarious, as well as annoying that I actually spend time explaining to you why some of your points are so stupid. But, what the hell I am bored at work, so here it goes again.


1)If you remember I predicted at the beginning of the season that there would be rage in Leaf nation if the Senators rebuilt quickly and passed the Leafs in performance

We could care less about the Sens rebuild compared to ours. We care more about our teams successes and failures.

2) A large part of this is the apparent failure of the Leafs to do a proper rebuild through the draft.

We have been over this time and time again. THE REBUILD IS STILL GOING ON, and THERE IS MORE THAN ONE WAY TO DO A REBUILD. The Leafs have improved from the 2nd worst club, to the 9th worse club, to currently in a playoff spot... Yea.. Failure

3) On the other hand, Leaf fans need to know this is about failing. I will repeat one more time that the author of this failing is Brian Blowhard.

You admitted to me that the Sens also are guilty of the same thing. Rather than tank as you say they should, they shot up the standings. Where are your criticisms of both? WHy is there homerism for the Sens and annoyance at the leaf? Why is your skull so god-damn thinkt hat you cannot get anything anyone says through it?

Shouldn't you start calling Murray Blowhard because he said they were entering a rebuild, but only drafted as high as 5th, then spent assets on players to make them better now?

_________________________________________

You are more annoying than Dopps. It is unbelievable. You call everyone out for changing positions, but you agree with both sides at the same time for EVERY debate we have.

Admit your mistakes, man up, and start making sense.

_______________________________________

My expected response from you:

"You know, you are right. The Sens did do the same thing as the Leafs. However, I still think that Karlsson is a Norris candidate. When is Spezza going to get the Hart? And clearly the Sens have done a better job of rebuilding, I even predicted it!"

As far as I'm concerned, being poor defensively, for the trophy as the best Dman in the league, is a show stopper.
- prock

There was more objection to Orr's first win. People were hostile to the idea that a guy who could control play in the offensive zone should be considered for what was essentially a defensive award. Paul Coffey had the same kind of criticism. What really matters is what players and coaches say. It was interesting to hear Marc Crawford on TSN last night. He thinks the kid should win the Norris. His most interesting point is that the kid already does stuff (athletically) that nobody else in the league can do on a consistent basis.

Ottawa would be nowhere without EK,s prolific offense,this being said i suspect as ottawa,s forwards get younger {next season} and over time better.The high risk plays will start to slowly find their way out of his game and he will become more worthy of winning the norris.

The kid will have a chance at many awards in the future,just him being mentioned among the leagues elite defensemen,is quite an accomplishment.I dont think he wins it but he is on the right track

There is so much wrong with this it is absolutely hilarious, as well as annoying that I actually spend time explaining to you why some of your points are so stupid. But, what the hell I am bored at work, so here it goes again.


1)If you remember I predicted at the beginning of the season that there would be rage in Leaf nation if the Senators rebuilt quickly and passed the Leafs in performance

We could care less about the Sens rebuild compared to ours. We care more about our teams successes and failures.

2) A large part of this is the apparent failure of the Leafs to do a proper rebuild through the draft.

We have been over this time and time again. THE REBUILD IS STILL GOING ON, and THERE IS MORE THAN ONE WAY TO DO A REBUILD. The Leafs have improved from the 2nd worst club, to the 9th worse club, to currently in a playoff spot... Yea.. Failure

3) On the other hand, Leaf fans need to know this is about failing. I will repeat one more time that the author of this failing is Brian Blowhard.

You admitted to me that the Sens also are guilty of the same thing. Rather than tank as you say they should, they shot up the standings. Where are your criticisms of both? WHy is there homerism for the Sens and annoyance at the leaf? Why is your skull so god-damn thinkt hat you cannot get anything anyone says through it?

Shouldn't you start calling Murray Blowhard because he said they were entering a rebuild, but only drafted as high as 5th, then spent assets on players to make them better now?

_________________________________________

You are more annoying than Dopps. It is unbelievable. You call everyone out for changing positions, but you agree with both sides at the same time for EVERY debate we have.

Admit your mistakes, man up, and start making sense.

_______________________________________

My expected response from you:

"You know, you are right. The Sens did do the same thing as the Leafs. However, I still think that Karlsson is a Norris candidate. When is Spezza going to get the Hart? And clearly the Sens have done a better job of rebuilding, I even predicted it!"



- mfreedman

I am not sure I need to respond. Your formulation of my response shows a clever touch on your part. You anticipate my thinking reasonably well.

On the larger matter I will add one addional point. It has been reported that the Bruins have broken off discussions with Columbusbbecause they will not include Dougie Hamilton in a deal for Rick Nash. Need to understand just how insidious Burke's failures have been. It is hard to be a prophet in your own land. But someone needs to hold them accountable.

Ottawa would be nowhere without EK,s prolific offense,this being said i suspect as ottawa,s forwards get younger {next season} and over time better.The high risk plays will start to slowly find their way out of his game and he will become more worthy of winning the norris.

The kid will have a chance at many awards in the future,just him being mentioned among the leagues elite defensemen,is quite an accomplishment.I dont think he wins it but he is on the right track
- top shelf 15

I'm told younger does not mean better. I look at your rookies that are not very young for rookies, and as I've been told by Sens fans, these are not high end rookies, and will probably not go anywhere.

I am not sure I need to respond. Your formulation of my response shows a clever touch on your part. You anticipate my thinking reasonably well.

On the larger matter I will add one addional point. It has been reported that the Bruins have broken off discussions with Columbusbbecause they will not include Dougie Hamilton in a deal for Rick Nash. Need to understand just how insidious Burke's failures have been. It is hard to be a prophet in your own land. But someone needs to hold them accountable.
- spatso

Glad to know you agree with my assessment.

The funny thing is I would actually value your opinion if you stuck by your guns.

You don't. You flip flop more than anyone else I have seen. Dopps has a huge OTT crush, but he sticks by it. I don't enjoy discussing with him, but I undertand his sentiment.

You are all over the place. It seems like your attitude with everything depends what side of the bed you wake up from.

Also, when you switch sides and we bring up the fact that you did so, or that your logic doesn make sense compared to something you sai before. YOu agree, with us, but continue right on spewing nonsense


Stop. Understand the point you want to make. Think if there is a connection to a point brought up by the person you are responding to. Write your comment. Then reread the original point, and your response.

You should follow these steps before posting on hb. It would make for better conversation.

I'm told younger does not mean better. I look at your rookies that are not very young for rookies, and as I've been told by Sens fans, these are not high end rookies, and will probably not go anywhere.
- prock

Which ones specifically , Ottawa should have a lot of them lot of them , as early as next season.And while they are not all going to be stars but iam sure ottawa will find some scoring and or decent play out of at least couple of them of them in the next few seasons

I bet there is no way Phoenix parts with Rundblad. That is one incredible failure on Murray's part to deal a prospect like that, AND a second, for a piece of junk. You need to realize how insidious Murray's failures are.

Which ones specifically , Ottawa should have a lot of them lot of them , as early as next season.And while they are not all going to be stars but iam sure ottawa will find some scoring and or decent play out of at least couple of them of them in the next few seasons
- top shelf 15

Greening, Daugavins, Da Costa.

I bet there is no way Phoenix parts with Rundblad. That is one incredible failure on Murray's part to deal a prospect like that, AND a second, for a piece of junk. You need to realize how insidious Murray's failures are.
- prock

Easy now KT has been good for us ,i will believe Rundblad being the second coming of Lidstrom when i see it.Kt has still been one of our better forwards if you have bothered to watch him play you would see this

Greening, Daugavins, Da Costa.
- prock

Young cheap depth players ,throw Condra in that mix as well .Greening looks better on a third line role ,but we dont have any other option right now.Next season if we add Slifverberg and zbad this should move him down to the bottom 6 .Which is a role Greening is very well suited for

Easy now KT has been good for us ,i will believe Rundblad being the second coming of Lidstrom when i see it.Kt has still been one of our better forwards if you have bothered to watch him play you would see this
- top shelf 15

that's the second line centre you've been pumping? 2 points in his last 13 games? His true colours have been showing through again. His true crap colours. That he's shown his entire career, to date.

Face it, it was a massive failure of a trade, and a complete waste of assets. Your bum chum is sitting there talking about giving up Hamilton? At least the Leafs got an asset back. Murray deals his best prospect AND a second, and gets zero. Zilch. Nothing.

that's the second line centre you've been pumping? 2 points in his last 13 games? His true colours have been showing through again. His true crap colours. That he's shown his entire career, to date.

Face it, it was a massive failure of a trade, and a complete waste of assets. Your bum chum is sitting there talking about giving up Hamilton? At least the Leafs got an asset back. Murray deals his best prospect AND a second, and gets zero. Zilch. Nothing.
- prock

prock you are speaking in absolutes again,he is 22 years old and has been creating chances by the boatload even during his slump.The puck will start to go in for him again and eventually on a more consistant basis.He will grow with the team ,and he will get some more tallent to play with as our prospects start to come up.

prock you are speaking in absolutes again,he is 22 years old and has been creating chances by the boatload even during his slump.The puck will start to go in for him again and eventually on a more consistant basis.He will grow with the team ,and he will get some more tallent to play with as our prospects start to come up.
- top shelf 15

What you're seeing now is exactly what he had been showing Phoenix for years. The puck isn't going to "start going in again". He's just not a second line centre. He's not that good. As I was telling you, when he went through his little scoring streak (like many players do for a brief time when they join a new team), maybe, if you're lucky, in a couple of years, if he can go through a PILE of development, you can end up with Tyler Bozak. But, right now, he doesn't produce offensively as well, not quite as good a two way player, not as good on the draw. If Sens fans are REALLY lucky though, and Turris can improve by leaps and bounds the next few years, you'll come out of it with something like Bozak.

Keep your fingers crossed buddy.

What you're seeing now is exactly what he had been showing Phoenix for years. The puck isn't going to "start going in again". He's just not a second line centre. He's not that good. As I was telling you, when he went through his little scoring streak (like many players do for a brief time when they join a new team), maybe, if you're lucky, in a couple of years, if he can go through a PILE of development, you can end up with Tyler Bozak. But, right now, he doesn't produce offensively as well, not quite as good a two way player, not as good on the draw. If Sens fans are REALLY lucky though, and Turris can improve by leaps and bounds the next few years, you'll come out of it with something like Bozak.

Keep your fingers crossed buddy.
- prock

Yep and if he gets to play with two pretty prolific wingers like a Lupul and Kessel ,instead of a 39 year old and a third line depth player in greening.I can see him bettering Bozac,s numbers

Yep and if he gets to play with two pretty prolific wingers like a Lupul and Kessel ,instead of a 39 year old and a third line depth player in greening.I can see him bettering Bozac,s numbers
- top shelf 15

that's what we like to refer to as rose coloured glasses.

that's what we like to refer to as rose coloured glasses.
- prock

Nothing wrong with what i said this kid is playing with a great older player ,that while can still score just on his smarts has lost a step.Greening is a fast big bodied north south player that lacks creativity.I have watched KT make play after play he is good, too bad your goggles wont allow you to see it

Nothing wrong with what i said this kid is playing with a great older player ,that while can still score just on his smarts has lost a step.Greening is a fast big bodied north south player that lacks creativity.I have watched KT make play after play he is good, too bad your goggles wont allow you to see it
- top shelf 15

through your glasses.

through your glasses.
- prock

I didnt make the trade BM with imput from his scouts and the head coach did,so you are assuming to know better than them And i see a pretty good player developing on the second line much like they see

What you're seeing now is exactly what he had been showing Phoenix for years. The puck isn't going to "start going in again". He's just not a second line centre. He's not that good. As I was telling you, when he went through his little scoring streak (like many players do for a brief time when they join a new team), maybe, if you're lucky, in a couple of years, if he can go through a PILE of development, you can end up with Tyler Bozak. But, right now, he doesn't produce offensively as well, not quite as good a two way player, not as good on the draw. If Sens fans are REALLY lucky though, and Turris can improve by leaps and bounds the next few years, you'll come out of it with something like Bozak.

Keep your fingers crossed buddy.
- prock

Murray loves Turris. Ottawa's improved play is tied directly to Turris taking on second line duties. It seems like your the only one who is unhappy. Need for you to reexamine your motivation.

I didnt make the trade BM with imput from his scouts and the head coach did,so you are assuming to know better than them And i see a pretty good player developing on the second line much like they see
- top shelf 15

You're assuming Murray knows better than Maloney, which isn't very smart either, given Murray's incredibly long history of ineptitude.

He will be nominated no doubt, It depends on how the sens finish the season. If the Sens continue to win at this pace, he will have a good chance to win it, but if the Sens falter I don't think he'll have a chance at winning.
- yea-ok-buddy

As with the Hart trophy, the Norris trophy "candidates" are the top three vote recipients at the end of the season, when the Professional Hockey Writers' Association vote on the players in the various categories, at the end of the season.

If Karlsson gets enough votes to be in the top three, then he's a candidate. But Professional Hockey Writers in most American markets, and also in the Western Conference, may favour players the know better, and see more often than Karlsson.

Murray loves Turris. Ottawa's improved play is tied directly to Turris taking on second line duties. It seems like your the only one who is unhappy. Need for you to reexamine your motivation.
- spatso

But Murray is inept.