What is inaccurate, the statistics or the commentators who argue something other than the statistics?
- spatso

There's a lot of ways that neither statistics nor so-called experts reach the truth of the matter.

I just don't understand why I get branded a Karlsson hater for simply asking a question which - as you've answered it - isn't damning. It's not implicit in the question "who is the worst defensively" that I think any of them are poor defensively.

Let's be fair to each other, and not read malicious intent into each other's posts.

When I started the Karlsson/Norris threads in this forum, I was merely suggesting he should be considered for nomination. I did not think he would be nominated but I thought he should be in the conversation. I was astounded by the bitter blow back that came from some quarters, primarily Leaf fans. They are angry and upset now that he has actually been nominated and they can't let it go. All they need to do is say the kid had a remarkable year and then let it go and move on. But, they can't let it go. They can't look at the kids defensive numbers. They want to believe what they want to believe.
- spatso

face is his defensive numbers aren't overly great. ya he was tops in takeaways but he was also 4th in giveaways. +/- is a over-rated stat as its not a true indication of individual play but rather team play.

And who cares what leaf fans think, you made your case and in the end you were right. X amount of professional hockey writers agreed with you, who cares if some homer leaf fans don't.

There's a lot of ways that neither statistics nor so-called experts reach the truth of the matter.

I just don't understand why I get branded a Karlsson hater for simply asking a question which - as you've answered it - isn't damning. It's not implicit in the question "who is the worst defensively" that I think any of them are poor defensively.

Let's be fair to each other, and not read malicious intent into each other's posts.
- Morris

another angle - if your up 1 goal who would you rather have on the ice? i don't think karlsson is anybodies first choice.

Not having watched Chara and Weber play much this past season, what should I base my opinion on?

I guess I could use plus/minus, turnovers, giveaways, hits, blocked shots, PK TOI but at the end of the day it would be an interpretation based on stats alone, and this may not be fair.

So it would be Chara based on plus minus I guess.
- Doppleganger

Fair enough.

You must feel quite ambivalent about the whole nomination thing then. Considering
A) You've stated many times that you doubt many of the members of the PWHA get a good look at the candidates and are thus going on public perception
and
B) You've stated many times that if one does not watch a player, then they cannot form a intelligible opinion of that player.
and
C) You have not watched enough of Chara or Karlsson

it seems to follow that you should have no interest in the outcome of the Norris voting anyway. Since you haven't seen enough of each candidate to know whether they made a good choice, and that even if you had, you'd have no confidence that they'd seen enough of each candidate to know whether they had made a good choice.

I admit though, it's very high praise for Karlsson to ascend to such acclaim so young in his career. I offer you congratulations of having an excellent young defenseman, and your team success this year. It was neat to see Alfie so fired up!

There's a lot of ways that neither statistics nor so-called experts reach the truth of the matter.

I just don't understand why I get branded a Karlsson hater for simply asking a question which - as you've answered it - isn't damning. It's not implicit in the question "who is the worst defensively" that I think any of them are poor defensively.

Let's be fair to each other, and not read malicious intent into each other's posts.
- Morris

How much do you think the weight each the the candidates attributes?

Does being "defensive" count for 50% of the decision? Perhaps they consider how the three teams would have fared without each of the three players.

Point being, do we really know what they take into consideration, when the make the choice.

There's a lot of ways that neither statistics nor so-called experts reach the truth of the matter.

I just don't understand why I get branded a Karlsson hater for simply asking a question which - as you've answered it - isn't damning. It's not implicit in the question "who is the worst defensively" that I think any of them are poor defensively.

Let's be fair to each other, and not read malicious intent into each other's posts.
- Morris

Generally, I agree you go out of your way to consciously attempt to maintain an objective perspective on most issues.

But this is a more complex issue. The so called experts "Norris voters" picked the kid as a nominee. The statistics illustrate that the kid has great defensive numbers. But there is a small vocal minority saying the kid does not play D and should not have been nominated.

In the face of the evidence your desire to remain objective puts you on the opposite side of the experts and the data. It does not make you a hater, but it places you squarely among the deniers. The world is not flat, there was a holocaust, there is global warming and the kid can play D.

another angle - if your up 1 goal who would you rather have on the ice? i don't think karlsson is anybodies first choice.
- sens rock

If I'm up by one goal, I'd rather have a couple defenseman that aren't nominated before any of those three. The award is most often given to the best two-way guy, lopping off both the high-end puck movers and the stalwart stay at homers.

Although for argument's sake, if I'm down by one goal, Karlsson would be near the top of my list of defensemen to call on.

Generally, I agree you go out of your way to consciously attempt to maintain an objective perspective on most issues.

But this is a more complex issue. The so called experts "Norris voters" picked the kid as a nominee. The statistics illustrate that the kid has great defensive numbers. But there is a small vocal minority saying the kid does not play D and should not have been nominated.

In the face of the evidence your desire to remain objective puts you on the opposite side of the experts and the data. It does not make you a hater, but it places you squarely among the deniers. The world is not flat, there was a holocaust, there is global warming and the kid can play D.
- spatso

I've never said he can't play D. I don't think his own-end play was Norris calibre at the beginning of the year, I'll admit that. I've said he's vastly improved his defensive skills over the course of the season.

I think he's the worst in his own end out of him Chara, and Weber. That's not really a damning designation.

And finally, what I've most often claimed is that he's a guy who excels by outscoring. He plays his best defense by controlling the puck and creating offensively. He is not the best at preventing goals among dmen, but he is up there in the task of scoring more than you get scored on. It's really really hard to find a better puck control, QB-style dman than Karlsson.

Fair enough.

You must feel quite ambivalent about the whole nomination thing then. Considering
A) You've stated many times that you doubt many of the members of the PWHA get a good look at the candidates and are thus going on public perception
and
B) You've stated many times that if one does not watch a player, then they cannot form a intelligible opinion of that player.
and
C) You have not watched enough of Chara or Karlsson

it seems to follow that you should have no interest in the outcome of the Norris voting anyway. Since you haven't seen enough of each candidate to know whether they made a good choice, and that even if you had, you'd have no confidence that they'd seen enough of each candidate to know whether they had made a good choice.

I admit though, it's very high praise for Karlsson to ascend to such acclaim so young in his career. I offer you congratulations of having an excellent young defenseman, and your team success this year. It was neat to see Alfie so fired up!
- Morris

If Karlsson wins or loses an individual trophy will not make or break my day.

I've said, and you've also said that the members of the PHWA cannot see all the players play enough to make any more that a "reputation" choice when it come to players from the other conference.

Alfredsson won the Calder, but at the end of the day I'll bet he would have preferred not to win it, if it meant he could have won the Cup. And as a fan, it's all about the team and how well they do on the ice, and how far the go in the season and playoffs.

I can tell you that if Karlsson could have traded his nomination for a pair of goals last night he would have done it, and I'll bet most players given the choice would do the same.

Without looking it up, do you know who won the Norris last year?

I doubt you do, but you sure know who won the Cup.

How much do you think the weight each the the candidates attributes?

Does being "defensive" count for 50% of the decision? Perhaps they consider how the three teams would have fared without each of the three players.

Point being, do we really know what they take into consideration, when the make the choice.
- Doppleganger

I think the award has its flaws. They always favour a "two-way defenseman" over a puck moving defenseman or a stay at home defenseman, and they often favour a puck moving defenseman over a stay at home defenseman.

Look at the nominees, it seems there's an offensive threshhold (say around 40 points) and then they usually pick the guy who's best in his own end.

It's not an entirely fair award.

If I'm up by one goal, I'd rather have a couple defenseman that aren't nominated before any of those three. The award is most often given to the best two-way guy, lopping off both the high-end puck movers and the stalwart stay at homers.

Although for argument's sake, if I'm down by one goal, Karlsson would be near the top of my list of defensemen to call on.
- Morris

Perhaps, this is another example of your rigorous objectivity placing you on the wrong side of the angels. If, for example, you are down a goal and Karlsson is "near" the top of your list, who is at the top?

I've never said he can't play D. I don't think his own-end play was Norris calibre at the beginning of the year, I'll admit that. I've said he's vastly improved his defensive skills over the course of the season.

I think he's the worst in his own end out of him Chara, and Weber. That's not really a damning designation.

And finally, what I've most often claimed is that he's a guy who excels by outscoring. He plays his best defense by controlling the puck and creating offensively. He is not the best at preventing goals among dmen, but he is up there in the task of scoring more than you get scored on. It's really really hard to find a better puck control, QB-style dman than Karlsson.
- Morris

Well done! I agree entirely.

If Karlsson wins or loses an individual trophy will not make or break my day.

I've said, and you've also said that the members of the PHWA cannot see all the players play enough to make any more that a "reputation" choice when it come to players from the other conference.

Alfredsson won the Calder, but at the end of the day I'll bet he would have preferred not to win it, if it meant he could have won the Cup. And as a fan, it's all about the team and how well they do on the ice, and how far the go in the season and playoffs.

I can tell you that if Karlsson could have traded his nomination for a pair of goals last night he would have done it, and I'll bet most players given the choice would do the same.

Without looking it up, do you know who won the Norris last year?

I doubt you do, but you sure know who won the Cup.
- Doppleganger

For C), I meant to say "Chara or Weber". Total mistake.

That's a really good take on things, and I think the thing that impresses me the most about Karlsson is how little he cares about his individual success in comparison to team success. He's said as much in several interviews.

Do you think Aflie will return for one more kick at it?

If Karlsson wins or loses an individual trophy will not make or break my day.

I've said, and you've also said that the members of the PHWA cannot see all the players play enough to make any more that a "reputation" choice when it come to players from the other conference.

Alfredsson won the Calder, but at the end of the day I'll bet he would have preferred not to win it, if it meant he could have won the Cup. And as a fan, it's all about the team and how well they do on the ice, and how far the go in the season and playoffs.

I can tell you that if Karlsson could have traded his nomination for a pair of goals last night he would have done it, and I'll bet most players given the choice would do the same.

Without looking it up, do you know who won the Norris last year?

I doubt you do, but you sure know who won the Cup.
- Doppleganger

I actually think there is a historical precedence to the Norris. All of the great young Dmen get shut out in the beginning and there is a belief that you need to serve your apprenticeship first before winning the whole thing.

Weber should have won last year. His has been the backbone of a team that has played the best team D in the league for a couple seasons now. It would be a great injustice if Weber does not win the Norris this year. The kid will have his chance further on down the road.

Perhaps, this is another example of your rigorous objectivity placing you on the wrong side of the angels. If, for example, you are down a goal and Karlsson is "near" the top of your list, who is at the top?
- spatso

Gosh I dunno. Karlsson may the top guy. I was moreso saying that the top three of my "up by one goal" list may not contain any of the Norris candidates, but my "down by one goal" list would definitely contain Karlsson.

That's tough to say, because it's hard to segregate player from team. If in some hypothetical, I've got a team with Lucic and/or Ryan Smyth and/or Tomas Holmstrom, then a Chara blast from the point that sees them clean up the garbage might be just what the doctor ordered, for example. Other scenarios might call on Karlsson, Dustin Byfuglien, or good old Nick Lidstrom for his poise.

Alcatraz had an incredibly astute observation on the Sens thread this morning. His simple insight is pretty potent in putting everything into perspective about just how highly regarded the kid is for those who really matter (Totarella and the Rangers)

"Ok so back to Karlsson for Norris trophy debate

I think the clip they showed last night on CBC shows exactly who the best dman in the game is.

Torts has one game plan for when Karlsson is on the ice, and a complete other one for the rest of the team. It didn't matter if Spezza Alfie Smith Konopka was on the ice, he played a specific style.

But what he did do was:

When Karlsson on ice: hang back at centre, have all 5 guys in the neutral zone waiting

When any other dman on the ice: forecheck, forecheck, forechceck

I honestly can't think of a team doing that to another single player before. thats how much Karlsson impacts the game. heads and shoulders the best dman in the game."

You have got to impressed by the fact that the kid essentially shut down Gaborik for the entire series. Gaborik had one goal and was a non factor in 6 out of the seven games.
- spatso

How do you feel about him having so much trouble with guys like Boyle, callahan, and ansimov? They really seemed to have a field day with him on the ice.

How do you feel about him having so much trouble with guys like Boyle, callahan, and ansimov? They really seemed to have a field day with him on the ice.
- prock

I think that is certainly true for the first game. It appears that the Senators did not anticipate that the Rangers would build their strategy around shutting down and/or attacking the kid. As the series wore on they seemed to settle for just trying to contain him. Given his ice time and the fact he played a lot against the Rangers #1 scorer his plus/minus of 0 is pretty respectable over the seven game series.

How do you feel about him having so much trouble with guys like Boyle, callahan, and ansimov? They really seemed to have a field day with him on the ice.
- prock

those guys would give a majority of defenseman fits because of their style of play.

those guys would give a majority of defenseman fits because of their style of play.
- sens rock

I think that is true. But, as we saw right from the beginning of game one, the Rangers game plan was to try and disrupt, shut down the kid. All things considered he adapted pretty well and played a patient and responsible game. I think you will see another leap forward in his game next year. I expect him to be more effective in picking his spots. Losing this series might be disappointing to the Sens and their fans. But, the learning experience will pay enormous dividends down the road.

I think that is true. But, as we saw right from the beginning of game one, the Rangers game plan was to try and disrupt, shut down the kid. All things considered he adapted pretty well and played a patient and responsible game. I think you will see another leap forward in his game next year. I expect him to be more effective in picking his spots. Losing this series might be disappointing to the Sens and their fans. But, the learning experience will pay enormous dividends down the road.
- spatso

I keep forgetting how toronto's 21 year old Norris nominated defenseman is doing...

I keep forgetting how toronto's 21 year old Norris nominated defenseman is doing...
- sens rock

Phanuef was 23 or so when he was nominated...thats who you mean right

under wilson he hasnt looked so good... Carlyle will fix that

good enough to get eliminated in the first round HEYO!
thanks ill be here till 5

Phanuef was 23 or so when he was nominated...thats who you mean right

under wilson he hasnt looked so good... Carlyle will fix that
- senstroll

He said toronto's 21 year old.

Not that it matters, but has any leaf players, recently (last twenty years) been finalists for any awards?

He said toronto's 21 year old.

Not that it matters, but has any leaf players, recently (last twenty years) been finalists for any awards?
- Doppleganger

Yeah. Mogilny won the Lady Byng in 2003, Gilmour won the Selke in 1993, Pat Burns won the Jack Adams in 1993, Jason Blake won the Masterton in 2008, and Curtis Joseph won the King Clancy in 2000.