You're wasting your time and sever space trying to change a "hate everything remotely connected with Ottawa" troll.

He will never be objective when it comes to Karlsson, or any Ottawa player.

Stop giving medicine to a dead man.
- Doppleganger

The response was actually to mfreedman and he is reasonable compared to he who shall not be taken seriously.

The response was actually to mfreedman and he is reasonable compared to he who shall not be taken seriously.
- spatso

I like trading opinions with mfreedman, as he is one of the objective leaf fans here. We can disagree, and even piss each other off, but any apologies offered are accepted.

It is clearly a waste of time to feed the troll, as he is only here to bash anything Ottawa related and will never change.

I like trading opinions with mfreedman, as he is one of the objective leaf fans here. We can disagree, and even piss each other off, but any apologies offered are accepted.

It is clearly a waste of time to feed the troll, as he is only here to bash anything Ottawa related and will never change.
- Doppleganger

regardless, you two will be forever linked.

just not sure who is Holmes and who is Moriarty

Actually, you are turning the matter upside down and trying to invoke a contextual understanding by reading a history against a subjective comparison.

Numbers don't lie, they are reflective of a reality. You can interprete the meaning of a statistic but you cannot deny the data. So when people say that the kid has produced a statistical result that has only been achieved by the legends at the same age it is a factual statement.

You can say, for example, the fact the kid has equal statistics to the legends does not mean he will duplicate their careers but you cannot deny the comparison.

To suggest that it is a hockey heresy to compare the kid to the legends is equally silly. We see this happen every generation.

The skinny kids Orr, Gretzky, Tiger Woods were all ridiculed when first comparisons were made. In the case of Woods there was outrage anytime a commentator made the comparison with Nicklaus. Orr was ridiculed as not being able to play defense. Gretzky was called a net hanger. But, and, here is the critical point, it is the legends who are the first to recognize a pier, a special talent. Nicklaus stepped up very early in Tiger's career to say that he was a prodigious talent. So, find out what Orr, Potvin and Coffey are saying about the kid. They all seem to think he is a very special talent. I believe (not certain) that they have all voiced the opinion that the kid is a worthy Norris candidate.
- spatso

Yes, there are greats of a period, but they were not called greats until they accomplish something on a consistent basis. Consistent is the key here.

How did the praise of Raycroft turn out after his amazing rookie year? How about Mason's incredible season? Doughty's progress has slowed as well.

All thought to become some of the more dominant players.

All I am saying is, make your comment if you want, but do not start calling Leaf fans ignorant when we don't buy into the same hype as you.

Proof is all I need, and personally it takes more than a year of outstanding play to show me that you should be compared to one of the greatest players to ever play the game.

Apparently, that is not the case for you.

regardless, you two will be forever linked.

just not sure who is Holmes and who is Moriarty
- Crimsoninja

regardless, you two will be forever linked.

just not sure who is Holmes and who is Moriarty
- Crimsoninja

Chel?

Yes, there are greats of a period, but they were not called greats until they accomplish something on a consistent basis. Consistent is the key here.

How did the praise of Raycroft turn out after his amazing rookie year? How about Mason's incredible season? Doughty's progress has slowed as well.

All thought to become some of the more dominant players.

All I am saying is, make your comment if you want, but do not start calling Leaf fans ignorant when we don't buy into the same hype as you.

Proof is all I need, and personally it takes more than a year of outstanding play to show me that you should be compared to one of the greatest players to ever play the game.

Apparently, that is not the case for you.
- mfreedman

I think you are being too wienerly. I believe fans are saying that not since the legends has anybody had as good a season as the kid. That is not about the kid being a legend. It is a statement about the quality of his season. It seems to me it is the commentators who want to knock the kid who are attempting to take the comparison out of context and make it more than it is. In that regard, it is really important to read what the legends themselves say about the kid and his season.

I think you are being too wienerly. I believe fans are saying that not since the legends has anybody had as good a season as the kid. That is not about the kid being a legend. It is a statement about the quality of his season. It seems to me it is the commentators who want to knock the kid who are attempting to take the comparison out of context and make it more than it is. In that regard, it is really important to read what the legends themselves say about the kid and his season.
- spatso

Yep who knows if he will score at this pace again,but i think he has proven himself to be much more than some skinny kid from sweden

Yep who knows if he will score at this pace again,but i think he has proven himself to be much more than some skinny kid from sweden
- top shelf 15

Yes, he's proven himself to be a very offensively talented player, no doubt about it.

Yes, he's proven himself to be a very offensively talented player, no doubt about it.
- prock

I'd also add that he's a human take-away machine... but then somebody would provide references that state clearly that there's no such thing as a mechanical take-away machine, therefore I'm dumb...

So instead I'll just say this - boobies.

I'd also add that he's a human take-away machine... but then somebody would provide references that state clearly that there's no such thing as a mechanical take-away machine, therefore I'm dumb...

So instead I'll just say this - boobies.
- Mr_Squeaks

Considering his age and size the kid is fine defensively. How many times has it been said that D develop later? I was impressed with him in that last Jets game, he doesn't give up the inside easily and has the smarts/footspeed to do it. That aspect of his game has improved and there's no reason to think that it won't continue to.

The key for Karlsson will be to stay healthy as the focus shifts to him. In the last MTL game he took a beating and despite Neil trying to stick up for him he was essentially a non factor. It will be interesting to see how he handles a 7 game series.

Considering his age and size the kid is fine defensively. How many times has it been said that D develop later? I was impressed with him in that last Jets game, he doesn't give up the inside easily and has the smarts/footspeed to do it. That aspect of his game has improved and there's no reason to think that it won't continue to.

The key for Karlsson will be to stay healthy as the focus shifts to him. In the last MTL game he took a beating and despite Neil trying to stick up for him he was essentially a non factor. It will be interesting to see how he handles a 7 game series.
- Pie

That'll be his Achiles heal until he bulks up, and I'm not sure how much bulking up his physiology will allow - especially since he relies on speed. He's certainly no secret...

That'll be his Achiles heal until he bulks up, and I'm not sure how much bulking up his physiology will allow - especially since he relies on speed. He's certainly no secret...
- Mr_Squeaks

He has to use his head more in the playoffs ,they will be focusing on him big time but he should be smart enough to make the simple play and still be very effective

That'll be his Achiles heal until he bulks up, and I'm not sure how much bulking up his physiology will allow - especially since he relies on speed. He's certainly no secret...
- Mr_Squeaks

Not a secret now for sure. I'm not sure just how much the focus on him is in the reg. season game to game grind compared to a 7 game PO set. I hope Ottawa gets in and see how MacLean plans to spring him. Either way getting in and competing will give the Sens a huge shot of confidence going forward.

Not a secret now for sure. I'm not sure just how much the focus on him is in the reg. season game to game grind compared to a 7 game PO set. I hope Ottawa gets in and see how MacLean plans to spring him. Either way getting in and competing will give the Sens a huge shot of confidence going forward.
- Pie

I'm looking forward to it - we'd be in tough no matter who we play, but if the young guys can compete as you say and learn from the result, it should be very good for us!

I think you are being too wienerly. I believe fans are saying that not since the legends has anybody had as good a season as the kid. That is not about the kid being a legend. It is a statement about the quality of his season. It seems to me it is the commentators who want to knock the kid who are attempting to take the comparison out of context and make it more than it is. In that regard, it is really important to read what the legends themselves say about the kid and his season.
- spatso

Name:----------------Year-------GP--G--A----Pts--+/-

Bobby Orr-----------1968/1969---67--21-43---64--+65 (3rd year in league)
Bobby Orr-----------1970-1971---78--37-102-139-+124 (Career year)

Mike Green----------2008/2009---82--37-51---88--+30 (Averaged to 82 games)
Mike Green----------2009/2010---82--22-61---83--+44 (Averaged to 82 games)
Nicklas Lidstrom----2005/2006---82--18-64---82--+24 (Averaged to 82 games)
Scott Stevens-------1993/1994---82--18-60---78--+52 (Averaged to 82 games)
Erik Karlsson------2011/2012---82--20-62---82--+20 (Averaged to 82 games)
Sergei Zubov--------2005/2006---82--16-61---77--+25 (Averaged to 82 games)
....
....
...

In Orr's 3rd season, he had numbers below what many defenseman have had.

Orr's legendary years contain numbers that Karlsson DOESN'T COME CLOSE to. However, he does have similar numbers to a guy like Mikge Green, or Zubov, etc.. Again, this is ONLY 1 year. To start calling him a legend, or comparing him to a legend is VERY premature.

Again though, your argument was:

not since the legends has anybody had as good a season as the kid

Mike Green is not a legend and his numbers in 08/09 and 09/10 beat Karlsson's this year by a significant margin.

Now, admit that your statement was wrong.

Note: The first thing you type in your reply should be:

"Dear Mr. Freedman, I was wrong in my statement..."

At which point, you can add a:

"but..." or "However..."

The begining should however start with the exact sentence I wrote, or something with very similar meaning.

I think a d-man scoring 30 goals is a bigger accomplishment. Green was on pace for 37 with a 1.07 ppg average. Only 1 player in the past dozen years has done that. Who was the last?

The true mark for greatness is doing it season after season like a bourque or Lidstrom.
we might be saying the same for Karlsson in 10 years, but its too soon to bring up Orr and stuff like that

I think a d-man scoring 30 goals is a bigger accomplishment. Green was on pace for 37 with a 1.07 ppg average. Only 1 player in the past dozen years has done that. Who was the last?

The true mark for greatness is doing it season after season like a bourque or Lidstrom.
we might be saying the same for Karlsson in 10 years, but its too soon to bring up Orr and stuff like that
- senstroll

The two biggest points in this are what I have been trying to let Spats understand, but he seems incapable.

#1. The true mark for greatness is doing it season after season like a bourque or Lidstrom.

#2. We might be saying the same for Karlsson in 10 years, but its too soon to bring up Orr and stuff like that

The two biggest points in this are what I have been trying to let Spats understand, but he seems incapable.

#1. The true mark for greatness is doing it season after season like a bourque or Lidstrom.

#2. We might be saying the same for Karlsson in 10 years, but its too soon to bring up Orr and stuff like that
- mfreedman

He has been pretty good since his rookie season,he has almost doubled his point production.It doesnt matter if he doesnt win the norris this season he will win one before its all said and done the kid is a stud

He has been pretty good since his rookie season,he has almost doubled his point production.It doesnt matter if he doesnt win the norris this season he will win one before its all said and done the kid is a stud
- top shelf 15

No one has ever questioned his offensive skill currently, but will he be able to maintain it? 2 years is not a good sample size.

No one has ever questioned his offensive skill currently, but will he be able to maintain it? 2 years is not a good sample size.
- mfreedman

It isn't two years at his current level, anyway.

No one has ever questioned his offensive skill currently, but will he be able to maintain it? 2 years is not a good sample size.
- mfreedman

Two years from being a teenager,and has improved over both seasons.He is 21 playing on a so so team that is rebuilding their core and leading the league in defensman scoring .Ill bet his offensive numbers will go down but his defensive game will improve even further as the team around him does.

Without EK,s massive offensive contributions we are a lottery team ,this fact cannot be overstated .Do any other defensemen in this league have so much impact on their teams ,also are they doing it without the support of a decent blueline .where would you rate ottawa,s defensive corps when compared to the other norris candidates,i bet its not even close

Two years from being a teenager,and has improved over both seasons.He is 21 playing on a so so team that is rebuilding their core and leading the league in defensman scoring .Ill bet his offensive numbers will go down but his defensive game will improve even further as the team around him does.

Without EK,s massive offensive contributions we are a lottery team ,this fact cannot be overstated .Do any other defensemen in this league have so much impact on their teams ,also are they doing it without the support of a decent blueline .where would you rate ottawa,s defensive corps when compared to the other norris candidates,i bet its not even close
- top shelf 15

does this not contradict the point you are trying to make?

does this not contradict the point you are trying to make?
- mfreedman

No not really ,is ottawa current blueline any where close to being as good as say boston,stlouis or nashville.EK is virturally on a island compared to the other candidates whom all have better support

No not really ,is ottawa current blueline any where close to being as good as say boston,stlouis or nashville.EK is virturally on a island compared to the other candidates whom all have better support
- top shelf 15

Clearly not, which is why the stats reflect it (which is your point)

Team------GF
BOS-----249
OTT------236
NAS ------219
STL-------199

Team------GA
STL-------147
BOS------186
NAS--------202
OTT-------227

Team-------Differential
BOS------63
STL-------52
NAS--------17
OTT-------9

But the point is that EK's stats and play are only affected when he is on the ice. I hear constantly from Sens fans (as well as seeing it) that Kuba is playing like an above average defenceman. Being that he is his defensive partner, and Karlsson plays the majority of the defence with him, is it not safe to say that EK has sufficient help from his partner to produce at a level defensively similar to these players?

Halak ---- .927
Rinne ---- .922
Thomas - .920
Anderson .913

the goalies numbers partially reflect the play of the defence in front of them.