He is comparing playoffs, you are comparing regular season

You guys really need to start talking on the same terms, otherwise the argument is pointless
- mfreedman

What are you talking about??

He posted

"They regularly finished ahead of them in the standings as well, in the regular season as well. The only thing the Sens have over that period is a finals appearance, basically every other comparison between the two teams is a win for the Leafs."

What part of "standings" and Regular Season" am I mixing up with "playoffs"????

When the teams were in opposite Conferences, they did not ever meet in the playoffs.

He clearly posted, "standings" and "regular season"..........nowhere is playoffs mentioned.

And Beauchemin was a useless 3.5 million plug for the Leafs. 21 year-old Aulie took his spot and was better.
- RogerRoeper

Everyone looks better off the leafs, we have a real coach, you guys have a dunderhead

We dumped Jason Blake on you.
- prock

We dumped Giguere on you

Oh, I realize it's a deal that most GMs couldn't do. I said as much.
- prock

That was actually a terrible typo on my part. I meant to say that I think it's a deal that many other GMs would and could have done. Not that they couldn't have done it.

I don't really understand the claim that the leafs were in a uniquely advantageous position to make that deal. Maybe that's not what you were claiming, but it wasn't really a stroke of genius. Just a decent job to pounce on Nashville's blunder in a way that most other GMs would have.

Yeah, Burke and Allaire did a great job with him. Just like they're doing with a few guys in the Leafs system now.

Hiller was undrafted.... so, sought after? Depends how you look at things.

That was around the time Enroth broke out though. There's always a few kids putting up mind numbing stats in Europe, like Varlamov did. Tuuka Rask was still over there lighting it up.

Then there are a few journeymen guys that will shock you with what they do. Look up a guy named Travis Scott.
- prock

Actually Burke is a moron, he signed Hiller when he had Giguere and Bryzgalov, and everyone knew Hiller signed to play in the NHL, what happened? Fat head gave Bryz away for nothing and we lost him on waivers.......A vezina caliber goalie, and we got NOTHING thanks to Burke! horrible!

They will be hard pressed to make the playoffs. I don't think I could name 7 teams in the east they can beat, maybe 5?

That was actually a terrible typo on my part. I meant to say that I think it's a deal that many other GMs would and could have done. Not that they couldn't have done it.

I don't really understand the claim that the leafs were in a uniquely advantageous position to make that deal. Maybe that's not what you were claiming, but it wasn't really a stroke of genius. Just a decent job to pounce on Nashville's blunder in a way that most other GMs would have.
- Morris

Agreed, sort of. It wasn't a stroke of genius that no other GM would do. Burke has talked about leaving room for moves like this. It's not the fist move like this he pulled off (on a smaller scale).

But At the end of the day the leafs were the only ones that were able to pull off that deal. If there were others that were able (cap space + financial) where were they? Where were the offers that beats and Echler and a buyout? The leafs stepped up and made the move no one else could/would.

Agreed, sort of. It wasn't a stroke of genius that no other GM would do. Burke has talked about leaving room for moves like this. It's not the fist move like this he pulled off (on a smaller scale).

But At the end of the day the leafs were the only ones that were able to pull off that deal. If there were others that were able (cap space + financial) where were they? Where were the offers that beats and Echler and a buyout? The leafs stepped up and made the move no one else could/would.
- burn

they stepped up and made the move no else did. I don't know whether Burke was the first GM called, or if he made the call. I have no idea whether tambellini turned the deal down. As far as cap condition goes, especially because it looks like Lombardi could actually play this year, it looks like the kind of move that the Oilers would have done. I don't know whether they got the chance. I can't say anything for sure other than that Burke DID make a great trade. But it was great moreso because it was lopsided, not because it took great balls or strategy.

Although, I'd be the first to admit Tambs doesn't have the balls Burke does.

they stepped up and made the move no else did. I don't know whether Burke was the first GM called, or if he made the call. I have no idea whether tambellini turned the deal down. As far as cap condition goes, especially because it looks like Lombardi could actually play this year, it looks like the kind of move that the Oilers would have done. I don't know whether they got the chance. I can't say anything for sure other than that Burke DID make a great trade. But it was great moreso because it was lopsided, not because it took great balls or strategy.

Although, I'd be the first to admit Tambs doesn't have the balls Burke does.
- Morris

Sometimes that can be a boon, if it prevents one from trading away high draft picks.

they stepped up and made the move no else did. I don't know whether Burke was the first GM called, or if he made the call. I have no idea whether tambellini turned the deal down. As far as cap condition goes, especially because it looks like Lombardi could actually play this year, it looks like the kind of move that the Oilers would have done. I don't know whether they got the chance. I can't say anything for sure other than that Burke DID make a great trade. But it was great moreso because it was lopsided, not because it took great balls or strategy.

Although, I'd be the first to admit Tambs doesn't have the balls Burke does.
- Morris

I agree... the only strategy involved was leaving the cap space to make such a move. Like you said we dont know if this was the only deal offered or anything like that, but that's kinda the point.... If it was the only offer, then the Leafs were the only ones willing to take the risk. If this deal is so lopsided and so many other teams would be interested in a deal of this sort, why were the LEafs able to get away with offering so little?? The evidence shows that they were the only ones that stepped up.

I agree... the only strategy involved was leaving the cap space to make such a move. Like you said we dont know if this was the only deal offered or anything like that, but that's kinda the point.... If it was the only offer, then the Leafs were the only ones willing to take the risk. If this deal is so lopsided and so many other teams would be interested in a deal of this sort, why were the LEafs able to get away with offering so little?? The evidence shows that they were the only ones that stepped up.
- burn

Burke has no fear of pulling the trigger. I think that's probably the main reason. Then again I'm not privy to insider info so who knows? Can't deny it was a good move on his part.

I agree... the only strategy involved was leaving the cap space to make such a move. Like you said we dont know if this was the only deal offered or anything like that, but that's kinda the point.... If it was the only offer, then the Leafs were the only ones willing to take the risk. If this deal is so lopsided and so many other teams would be interested in a deal of this sort, why were the LEafs able to get away with offering so little?? The evidence shows that they were the only ones that stepped up.
- burn

Burke might have gotten wind of it first and sealed the deal before other teams knew what was available. IE other teams might have been willing to step up and offer more but didn't get a chance. Good job evidently by Burke, but I really doubt that Burke called up Nashville and offered junk which they accepted. Rather, it seems like these players were being shopped and either Burke was the only one to offer anything or Burke was (among) the first to hear about it. GG if it's the former, but I'm not discounting the latter.

Burke might have gotten wind of it first and sealed the deal before other teams knew what was available. IE other teams might have been willing to step up and offer more but didn't get a chance. Good job evidently by Burke, but I really doubt that Burke called up Nashville and offered junk which they accepted. Rather, it seems like these players were being shopped and either Burke was the only one to offer anything or Burke was (among) the first to hear about it. GG if it's the former, but I'm not discounting the latter.
- Morris

So you think Burke offered junk and nashville jumped? Doubtful.

If they were shopping these guys why were no better offers out there? The leafs were the only ones that stepped up. Burke likely said I'll take that contract off your hands, but its going to cost you. I imagine Nashville wasn't thrilled with the return and made it known around the league - beat this offer and it's yours. No one did.

They will be hard pressed to make the playoffs. I don't think I could name 7 teams in the east they can beat, maybe 5?
- GoneFullRetard

Because you think the same old teams will make it. That won't happen.

So yeah, I wonder if the Leafs can make the playoffs.

So you think Burke offered junk and nashville jumped? Doubtful.

If they were shopping these guys why were no better offers out there? The leafs were the only ones that stepped up. Burke likely said I'll take that contract off your hands, but its going to cost you. I imagine Nashville wasn't thrilled with the return and made it known around the league - beat this offer and it's yours. No one did.
- burn

I don't think Burke cold offered them junk, no, as I said.

Is it also possible that Nashville wasn't thrilled with the return but were so desperate to get it done and move on with their summer and their more important future signings/dealings that they pulled the trigger without doing much shopping. They probably knew they weren't going to get a good deal from anyone. They were evidently interested in the cheapest buyouts, the absolute bottom line. Perhaps Burke is the only one who offered buyout players.

My point is simply that you can't conclude from the mere fact that the leafs made a good trade that no one else could or would have made the trade.

I don't think Burke cold offered them junk, no, as I said.

Is it also possible that Nashville wasn't thrilled with the return but were so desperate to get it done and move on with their summer and their more important future signings/dealings that they pulled the trigger without doing much shopping. They probably knew they weren't going to get a good deal from anyone. They were evidently interested in the cheapest buyouts, the absolute bottom line. Perhaps Burke is the only one who offered buyout players.

My point is simply that you can't conclude from the mere fact that the leafs made a good trade that no one else could or would have made the trade.
- Morris

Not saying that others wouldn't make a deal, but that they couldnt or else they would have.

Not saying that others wouldn't make a deal, but that they couldnt or else they would have.
- burn

This is what I'm disputing. Everything one doesn't do is something they couldn't have done?

I agree... the only strategy involved was leaving the cap space to make such a move. Like you said we dont know if this was the only deal offered or anything like that, but that's kinda the point.... If it was the only offer, then the Leafs were the only ones willing to take the risk. If this deal is so lopsided and so many other teams would be interested in a deal of this sort, why were the LEafs able to get away with offering so little?? The evidence shows that they were the only ones that stepped up.
- burn

I think that is pretty realistic about what actually happened. The smart thing that Burke has done is to create the cap space.

I don't think Burke cold offered them junk, no, as I said.

Is it also possible that Nashville wasn't thrilled with the return but were so desperate to get it done and move on with their summer and their more important future signings/dealings that they pulled the trigger without doing much shopping. They probably knew they weren't going to get a good deal from anyone. They were evidently interested in the cheapest buyouts, the absolute bottom line. Perhaps Burke is the only one who offered buyout players.

My point is simply that you can't conclude from the mere fact that the leafs made a good trade that no one else could or would have made the trade.
- Morris

There are several really important factors that need to be considered. Generally teams fall into three groups. Those that are at the top of their game, the elite contenders (Vancouver, Washington, San Jose), they have everything on the main roster, they have leveraged their prospects, their cap space and they want to win now. Group 2 are the teams that are coming on strong (Kings, Flyers), they have good teams already, they have a good core of prospects and they will be even stonger as their team matures. The third group includes the teams that are in rebuilding mode (Oilers, Senators). Their teams are weak but they are prospect rich and have lots of cap space. They are following the progression of the pattern already used by Vancouver, Washington, Flyers and Kings and they hope to be the elite contenders within the next few years.

There are several teams that are exceptions (Boston, Chicago) who are elite teams already but because of unique circumstances they are still not all in because they still have great depth among their prospects. And. of course. the other great exception are teams like the Leafs that do not have a strong competitive main team, they do not have a strong prospect pool in reserve and they do not seem to have a management strategy for getting there. They do each deal as it comes along. So, one year Leaf fans are saying Komisarek is the steal signing of the off season, as is the Monster or Phaneuf or Fransom as is...well you know the drill. It is called mismanagement.

This is what I'm disputing. Everything one doesn't do is something they couldn't have done?
- Morris

If there was a better offer then where was it?? Why did Nashville take a weaker offer?

Logic dictates that there were no better offers....

If there was a better offer then where was it?? Why did Nashville take a weaker offer?

Logic dictates that there were no better offers....
- burn

It is a good deal for Nashville. They move out $4.3m in salary and they get to move Blum up in their system and, at the same time, provide for Fisher who they took on before the trade deadline. Let's not forget that Nashville has one of the best young defense corps in the NHL. It is proving to be very expensive. Why would anyone in the West want to help Nashville dump salary? Not many teams in the East would be interested either. It was a unique set of circumstances that allowed the Leafs to do the deal. It might actually benefit the Leafs. But, in the larger scheme of things, I really don't think it is anything other than a summer salary dump. Nashville is a much better team because of the deal. The Leafs have added two more players who have a similar skill set to other guys already on the team.

It is a good deal for Nashville. They move out $4.3m in salary and they get to move Blum up in their system and, at the same time, provide for Fisher who they took on before the trade deadline. Let's not forget that Nashville has one of the best young defense corps in the NHL. It is proving to be very expensive. Why would anyone in the West want to help Nashville dump salary? Not many teams in the East would be interested either. It was a unique set of circumstances that allowed the Leafs to do the deal. It might actually benefit the Leafs. But, in the larger scheme of things, I really don't think it is anything other than a summer salary dump. Nashville is a much better team because of the deal. The Leafs have added two more players who have a similar skill set to other guys already on the team.
- spatso

Nashville is much better now??

It might help Toronto?

Nashville is much better now??

It might help Toronto?
- burn

Again you are making the mistake of a fan observer. You want to look at a deal in isolation as it relates to the team you follow. From Nashville's perspective the deal is pretty straight forward. They are able to move out Lombardi because they have Fisher. They move out Franson and they are able to move up their top prospect Jonathon Blum. They are a much better team with Fisher and Blum than with Lombardi and Franson.

It is easy to understand that Nashville is better because of the deal. But, how much better are the Leafs to add two more players that are very similar to what they already have on their roster?

As you know I am inclined to always look at the lead dog. Teams tend to be as good as their best players. So, I think when you look at the top 2 or 3 Dmen for the Leafs they do not have a really high end #1 that puts them in the same range as the top teams. They do not have a Chara or a Pronger or a Letang. On the development end they do not have a kid with the potential of a Tyler Myers or a Carlson or a Karllson or a Subban. I think Schenn is a superb #2 but you cannot be a one of the best if don't have a #1.

I don't mean to imply that Myers, Carlson, Karllson or Subban are in the same class as Chara, Pronger or Letang. It only points to the need for teams to develop this kind player (although Myers is getting very close to being a dominant #1).
- spatso

The bolded are better than Schenn... why? Luke's way better than any of them defensively- he's at least on par with any of them just because of his defensive game. As usual, you underrate the Leaf player just because he's a Leaf.

And high-end #1... Ever heard of Phaneuf?