- Skalapy

Careful someone might challenge you to a fight.

Not to mention he is not that big.
- jribout

Nor does he have AM34’s back to stand on

Very dirty hit by Kane

Very dirty hit by Kane
- jribout

Unreal dirty - Marchand like there

Very dirty hit by Kane
- jribout

I think we might be cheering for different teams.

I'm irritated that the game has been largely petty calls and Vancouver has gotten away with a ton of petty infractions. I didn't like the McDavid high stick - although Hyman was high sticked earlier with no call; I also thought that the Kane hit was . . . too much leg? It was a greasy hit.

But the calls have not been equivalent in the game in my opinion. RNH was called for two early penalties in the game and I don't think either was really worthy.

Either he's willing to waive and he goes now or he becomes a UFA and goes next year. In either scenario, he goes and nobody else does. If they have to burn next year, so be it. It's still better than making the team worse to clear cap space just for next season.



It's not nominal if you get a player in return who can be a middle of the line-up contributor.

For example, Tavares with 2 AAV retained for Clifton + sign DeMelo or Pesce for 4.5 AAV and suddenly you got two top 4 RHD for the same cap hit as Tavares.

And still another 13-14 million left over to sign a top-six C and a top-six winger. If that's Domi and Bertuzzi at 4.5 each, you still have 5 AAV to sign a goalie (Markstrom with 1 AAV retained?). A lot of options open up.

Or, you wait Tavares out, sign Pesce or DeMelo then sign another RHD and a top-six forward next UFA season. Add a goalie like Logan Thompson and see how it plays out.

In both scenarios, the Leafs are still getting progress in other areas for the same cap hit, just a matter of how quickly it gets done.



100% correct. Marner is an elite player in the NHL who does it at both ends of the ice. He's not perfect but neither is Matthews or Nylander. But together, they give you as good an offensive core as anybody. They just need to be built around better in other areas.





I have zero faith in Treliving and Shanahan. Treliving was a career loser in Calgary and Shanahan has no proven pedigree as a hockey manager. He was a winner on the ice but so was Gretzky and we all saw how he failed as a coach. Shanahan has been given entirely too much time and leeway in this entire process.

They had an opportunity last offseason to sign some big body, RHD and they absolutely refused to do so. Instead, they wasted the majority of UFA contracts on useless players. They brought back Samsonov and that was a big mistake. I don't see them learning from their mistakes.
- Rare_Jewel

Ultimately they either make a knee-jerk reaction and trade Marner - or they play it out and wait until the end of the year. I have no problem with Tavares at $3m and not being the captain - but any more and I don't want him.

Realistically I don't think they acquire what you'd like from a Tavares trade (that he agrees to), especially because I think he's at the point in his contract where he rides it out.

Regardless the important thing is that if they want to go forward with Nylander and Marner, they would need to insulate them with more size and muscle.

It's a lot of needs - improve the top-4 D, add size and muscle to the forwards, get a goalie to compliment and possibly lead Woll. I'd like to keep Domi, am impartial on Bertuzzi, and was thoroughly unimpressed with Boosh v2.0, and thought Edmundson had his moments but not enough to keep him.

Ultimately they either make a knee-jerk reaction and trade Marner - or they play it out and wait until the end of the year. I have no problem with Tavares at $3m and not being the captain - but any more and I don't want him.

Realistically I don't think they acquire what you'd like from a Tavares trade (that he agrees to), especially because I think he's at the point in his contract where he rides it out.

Regardless the important thing is that if they want to go forward with Nylander and Marner, they would need to insulate them with more size and muscle.

It's a lot of needs - improve the top-4 D, add size and muscle to the forwards, get a goalie to compliment and possibly lead Woll. I'd like to keep Domi, am impartial on Bertuzzi, and was thoroughly unimpressed with Boosh v2.0, and thought Edmundson had his moments but not enough to keep him.
- Monkeypunk

Well it's shown for two years now you can just go rent guys like boosh, schenn and edmunson. You don't have to sign them to some deal with term. Just trade at the deadline. There will be another player similar to their ilk available.

Vancouver fans disappeared real quick. Looks like they just lost.

Ultimately they either make a knee-jerk reaction and trade Marner - or they play it out and wait until the end of the year. I have no problem with Tavares at $3m and not being the captain - but any more and I don't want him.
- Monkeypunk

They can't trade Marner if he doesn't want to be traded. And if he leaves as a UFA, well, the Leafs are simply led by the dumbest people in all of hockey.

The same can be said about Tavares. If he doesn't want to go, then he won't go. But they gave him 6 years and it didn't work out. If they want to wait 1 more, so be it. But it can't come at the cost of losing an elite player in his prime.

Realistically I don't think they acquire what you'd like from a Tavares trade (that he agrees to), especially because I think he's at the point in his contract where he rides it out.

I think they can get an average return for Tavares if they retain a bit of his salary. The hard part is getting him to waive the NMC. But again, when players are asked to waive the NMC, they usually do. It's just a matter of them deciding what they want to do.

Would he return to Long Island? Perhaps. It's familiar. Would he go to Buffalo? Perhaps, it's near his family. It's just a matter of figuring out where he wants to go and crunching numbers. He can still provide value to certain situations, just not here at that price.

Leafs have to get creative.

Here's a thought for CBA cap creativity...

What if the Leafs trade him (after July 1st signing bonus, 700K salary) in a 3-way deal with each team retaining salary.

Is that even CBA legal? Don't know. But if it is, it might satisfy all parties if done correctly.

Regardless the important thing is that if they want to go forward with Nylander and Marner, they would need to insulate them with more size and muscle.

I think that needs to happen regardless of who they build the team around.

It's a lot of needs - improve the top-4 D, add size and muscle to the forwards, get a goalie to compliment and possibly lead Woll. I'd like to keep Domi, am impartial on Bertuzzi, and was thoroughly unimpressed with Boosh v2.0, and thought Edmundson had his moments but not enough to keep him.

As you may remember, I wanted the Leafs to bring in big body RHD last season. This year, they have a couple options for UFA RHD. I think Woll is a total unknown. He's very good but also very unreliable. They absolutely need a cheap alternative to split the net with him. Target #1 should be Logan Thompson. I'd take Adin Hill too but he'd take more cap space. But one of the two should be available from Vegas.

Domi can stay if he takes 4 or less. Bertuzzi was a waste. Touted as a playoff performer I don't think he moved the needle for 5.5 AAV. Boosh made very few mistakes. I'd take him back if he costs less than Liljegren and they decide to dump Liljegren. Think the Liljegren experiement might be over too and I'd only keep him if he plays for 1.25 AAV or less as a bottom pair RHD. He's not top-4 quality on a winner. Edmundson is over the hill. If he plays for less, maybe you take him as the 7th D, otherwise he can walk.

Is that even CBA legal? Don't know. But if it is, it might satisfy all parties if done correctly.


- Rare_Jewel

Honestly - me neither.

I think that needs to happen regardless of who they build the team around.



As you may remember, I wanted the Leafs to bring in big body RHD last season. This year, they have a couple options for UFA RHD. I think Woll is a total unknown. He's very good but also very unreliable. They absolutely need a cheap alternative to split the net with him. Target #1 should be Logan Thompson. I'd take Adin Hill too but he'd take more cap space. But one of the two should be available from Vegas.

Domi can stay if he takes 4 or less. Bertuzzi was a waste. Touted as a playoff performer I don't think he moved the needle for 5.5 AAV. Boosh made very few mistakes. I'd take him back if he costs less than Liljegren and they decide to dump Liljegren. Think the Liljegren experiement might be over too and I'd only keep him if he plays for 1.25 AAV or less as a bottom pair RHD. He's not top-4 quality on a winner. Edmundson is over the hill. If he plays for less, maybe you take him as the 7th D, otherwise he can walk.

I would sign Domi to 6x$5. It's probably high, but I think this is a stage he will continue to perform on - and probably with more opportunity. $5m isn't what it was a few years ago - but ideally I'd like $4m for him. In the end Bertuzzi may have posted . . . almost acceptable numbers (and I say that with clenched teeth, because the Bertuzzi of the last two months was good; the Bertuzzi of the first 4 was pointless). I didn't like watching him, personally. I was telling my friend tonight that Bertuzzi reminded me of how he played drunk - he was all over the place and accomplishing nothing - defensively he was utterly useless and offensively he was occasionally in the right place to make things happen, but more often than not he was falling down.

I am also done with Lilly. He has good points to his game - same as Sandin did - but neither will be missed. If we have Rielly failing at simple plays, we sure don't need Lilly adding to it. I thought Boosh was pretty poor. I get that he could be had for probably $1.4m, but at that price point they make different but similarly numerous dumb mistakes. I was sort of surprised that Edmundson was so slow at just 30.

It's up to Treliving now to make this his team.

Honestly - me neither.
- Monkeypunk

I was spit balling at first, did some checking and some more math.

After July 1st signing bonus.

Leafs retain 25% on Tavares = 2.75 AAV dead cap hit.

To Chicago: 50% of 8.25 (4.125 AAV), Kampf and a 4th round pick.

Chicago signed Perry and Foligno to 4 million dollar contracts last year when they were 1 million dollar players. Why? A body and a cap floor hit. I think Kampf fills a spot (he's played there before) and a draft pick.

If Chicago is not interested, Anaheim might work instead.

To Islanders*: Tavares at 4.125 AAV (338K real dollars)

If he feels like going back to where it all started the Islanders pay him next to nothing in real dollars and he provides 25 goals, 60 points. Pretty good deal for all 3 parties.

*OR (Buffalo for Greenway @ 3 AAV)

If he feels like being close to Oakville, Buffalo is closer, still gets to play in the top-6 and the Leafs get a big body LW.

A lot of other teams could fill in at this final landing spot if Tavares only costs 4.125 AAV against the cap. Probably a lot of contenders all over the league would be calling, making him offers to join them. If the Leafs can get back a depth player for less than 3 AAV, the deal works. Could also recover 2nd/3rd round picks from the right buyer if he wants to join a contender in the West for 1 season (Dallas, Vegas, Colorado, Edmonton).

To Leafs: Cizikas (2.5 AAV) or Greenway (3 AAV), any other depth player with a low cap hit or recovery of 2nd/3rd round picks.

Add 8.15 to the 18.5 they already have and you're looking at 26.65 AAV to sign a top-six LW, 2nd C, two top-four RHD and a goalie. About 5 million for each position if it's averaged out.

I would sign Domi to 6x$5. It's probably high, but I think this is a stage he will continue to perform on - and probably with more opportunity. $5m isn't what it was a few years ago - but ideally I'd like $4m for him. In the end Bertuzzi may have posted . . . almost acceptable numbers (and I say that with clenched teeth, because the Bertuzzi of the last two months was good; the Bertuzzi of the first 4 was pointless). I didn't like watching him, personally. I was telling my friend tonight that Bertuzzi reminded me of how he played drunk - he was all over the place and accomplishing nothing - defensively he was utterly useless and offensively he was occasionally in the right place to make things happen, but more often than not he was falling down.

I think Domi might (and should) take less. And given how much he's bounced around, do you really think he wants to leave Toronto now that he's finally landed here? I think if the Leafs give him a 5 year deal, it has to be for 4 or less.

I like Domi as a player but he was still a 9 goal, 40 point player. And he took a lot of stupid penalties in the playoffs. I like him but it absolutely has to be the right price. He's a small, pass first player. Feisty, yes, but 9 goals and 40 points with a bit of rat can't be more than 4 AAV / 5 years (29 to 34).

Bertuzzi is indeed useless defensively and too sloppy overall. I'm glad they gave him a chance but I just don't see where he fits at what he expects to be paid. Highest I would go on him is maybe 4.5 AAV over 3 years. And I'd look at other options before him. Probably would use him as plan C or D.

I am also done with Lilly. He has good points to his game - same as Sandin did - but neither will be missed. If we have Rielly failing at simple plays, we sure don't need Lilly adding to it. I thought Boosh was pretty poor. I get that he could be had for probably $1.4m, but at that price point they make different but similarly numerous dumb mistakes. I was sort of surprised that Edmundson was so slow at just 30.

Agreed. Except I though Boosh was unnoticeable most of the time which is what you want from a defensive defender. Like I said, I'd use Liljegren or Boosh as the 3rd pair RHD at 1.25 AAV for 1 year and no more.

It's up to Treliving now to make this his team.

He's a failure. I don't see him doing anything that Shanahan doesn't tell him to do.

Marner to Seattle makes very little sense. You aren't getting the Krakens 1-2 d man who logs most of the minutes with Dunn. Wright is literally set to step into the 2C position with Wennberg gone. Why not just ask for Beniers while at it? Kraken need more goals, which if they wanted one of the Leafs core it would likely be Willy not Marner. Seattle might give up prospects plus picks but they arent selling off their key core pieces, or top end prospects like Evans, Wright, or Kartye.

Now if Leafs wanna take Gru then that might work but yeah Leags def dont want that

I was spit balling at first, did some checking and some more math.

Leafs retain 25% on Tavares = 2.75 AAV dead cap hit.


- Rare_Jewel

Ok now whats the dead cap hit if we buy him out of that last year? Curious if it ends up less of a hit there

Ok now whats the dead cap hit if we buy him out of that last year? Curious if it ends up less of a hit there
- Roadrunner75

That's not possible because the way the Leafs frontloaded the contract, a buyout leaves us with almost the full cap hit and no player.

So 10.39 cap hit for 2024/2025 and 300K in 2025/2026.

https://www.capfriendly.c...t-calculator/john-tavares

That's why I was trying to figure out ways to retain 25%, 25% and 50% through multiple teams to get his contract cap hit low enough that you could get cap floor teams to take on a little bit each, dump a little bit each and pay a small price and not have to give up a 1st round pick like we did with Marleau.

That's not possible because the way the Leafs frontloaded the contract, a buyout leaves us with almost the full cap hit and no player.

So 10.39 cap hit for 2024/2025 and 300K in 2025/2026.

https://www.capfriendly.c...t-calculator/john-tavares
- Rare_Jewel

Was afraid of that. Less worried about no player. More the cap hit at this point.

Was afraid of that. Less worried about no player. More the cap hit at this point.
- Roadrunner75

Was thinking something like this as I keep refining it and thinking of different trade partners...

The fact that each of the core 4 make around the same amount as McDavid is really embarrassing.

Agree, you do everything you can to persuade Tavares to wave and not throw away Marner. But in saying that if Marner does re up, he gets nothing more then what Nylander got.
- Buck Norris

I totally disagree with this.
It will cost way too much to move him out. The Leafs will need to attach a pick to move him and that could be their 1st round pick.
Stick with him for his last year of his contract.
even if the Leafs eat up half his cap then you lose your cap space you were hoping to gain

JT named captain of Team Canada

Marner has led the team in points and playoff points almost every season he's been on the team plus kills penalties. If he gets 11.93 x 8 and Tavares is off the books, they would be just fine.

That would give the Leafs almost 29.5 million (18.5 + 11) to use to sign a 2nd line C, top-six W, two RHD and a goalie. 5 guys at 6 AAV each and you're a way better team.

Either Tavares says yes and you get a top-six C/W or a 2nd pair RHD in return or you wait another year and do it with the next UFA crop. But with the 18.5 they have this year, they can easily sign two RHD and add more forwards next year. Grab a cheap goalie this offseason (Thompson from Vegas) and re-evaluate next year.
- Rare_Jewel

what if he got all those points in 1 or two games
does it still make him a playoff performer?

and you lose half of your cap if you move Tavares cause you will need to eat half his cap hit. so you don't have the cap space you think you'll have

Marner is the 7th highest scoring player (more points than Nylander) the past 5 seasons. 3rd highest scoring winger, 2nd highest scoring RW. 5th highest in assists.

Sorry, but that doesn't equate to a guy that has played 16 games in his first two seasons after falling from his projected 1st overall pick status. Marner had over 120 points in his first 2 years after being drafted. The value is not even close to the same.

And Marner, no matter what anybody says about his playoff performances, still has more career playoff points than Matthews and Nylander. So this whole "playoff bust" bullpoop applies to Matthews and Nylander if it applies to Marner.

Larsson is a 20 point RHD. Why the (frank) would the Leafs trade one of their best players for a guy they can get as a UFA (Brett Pesce) for free?

For all the same reasons Nylander wasn't traded for a garbage package of low ranking D is the same reasons why Marner should not be traded for one either.

It's a horrid trade idea. End of story.
- Rare_Jewel

Nylander has won the Leafs playoff games, how many has Marner got?

Holy poop this solar flare is totally messing with my internet
- Arctic_AARDVARK

did you wear your tin foil hat while watching them?

Yes, it is the answer because you'll have three 100 point scorers in their prime with 54 million left to fill the rest.



I don't think they'd have to eat that much if they take some salary in return.

For example, Buffalo. Close to Oakville so he's not far from home. If they send us Clifton or Greenway and the Leafs retain 2 million, they're essentially getting Tavares for a 5 million cap increase and 700K in real dollars. That's a pretty good deal for a 25-30 goal and 65-70 point top-six center.

And for the Leafs, they get an affordable big top-six winger or a 2nd pair RHD and eat the 2 million cap hit for one year




The change is letting Tavares go. Change of captaincy and opening up for 11 million in cap space for UFAs in different areas. The only question is, does it happen now (if Tavares waives his NMC) or if you have to wait him out and do it next year.
- Rare_Jewel

oh! man, the Sabre hang up you when you say "we'll retain 2M of his cap hit"
try 4~6M on his contract.

you're just wishful thinking

George Brett was the best. the video of him poopting his pants story is legendary
- drexel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Qv25_DFR2k

Either he's willing to waive and he goes now or he becomes a UFA and goes next year. In either scenario, he goes and nobody else does. If they have to burn next year, so be it. It's still better than making the team worse to clear cap space just for next season.


It's not nominal if you get a player in return who can be a middle of the line-up contributor.

For example, Tavares with 2 AAV retained for Clifton + sign DeMelo or Pesce for 4.5 AAV and suddenly you got two top 4 RHD for the same cap hit as Tavares.

And still another 13-14 million left over to sign a top-six C and a top-six winger. If that's Domi and Bertuzzi at 4.5 each, you still have 5 AAV to sign a goalie (Markstrom with 1 AAV retained?). A lot of options open up.

Or, you wait Tavares out, sign Pesce or DeMelo then sign another RHD and a top-six forward next UFA season. Add a goalie like Logan Thompson and see how it plays out.

In both scenarios, the Leafs are still getting progress in other areas for the same cap hit, just a matter of how quickly it gets done.



100% correct. Marner is an elite player in the NHL who does it at both ends of the ice. He's not perfect but neither is Matthews or Nylander. But together, they give you as good an offensive core as anybody. They just need to be built around better in other areas.





I have zero faith in Treliving and Shanahan. Treliving was a career loser in Calgary and Shanahan has no proven pedigree as a hockey manager. He was a winner on the ice but so was Gretzky and we all saw how he failed as a coach. Shanahan has been given entirely too much time and leeway in this entire process.

They had an opportunity last offseason to sign some big body, RHD and they absolutely refused to do so. Instead, they wasted the majority of UFA contracts on useless players. They brought back Samsonov and that was a big mistake. I don't see them learning from their mistakes.
- Rare_Jewel

again you are ASSuMing that they will sign players on the cheap.
Pesce will NOT sign for 4.5M cap hit. Try 5.5~7M range it will be.
you will need to retain more than 2m or give a high draft pick to move Tavares
and there goes the cap space you were hoping to gain.